There is now a successful UK-founded but Mongolian-run wild Bactrian breeding programme. It would be nice to see animals from that programme dispersed to UK and other zoos as an insurance policy.
Species you hate to see in zoos
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There is now a successful UK-founded but Mongolian-run wild Bactrian breeding programme. It would be nice to see animals from that programme dispersed to UK and other zoos as an insurance policy.
Aren't Wild Bactrian Camels one of those species that just don't do well outside of their native range? Similar to Pronghorn.
~Thylo
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
We started breeding pugs to create a medically sounder breed. Every dog breed has its own issues, and the pushed-in face of a pug makes it a bracheocephalic breed, and it's also known for luxating patellas and serious corneal ulcers from its very globular eyes. What actually outraged us enough to start breeding were two dogs with eyelid entropion, lashes growing on the inside of the lid and abrading the cornea. But being a bracheocephalic breed does not automatically make pugs poor breathers, rather loud breathers or snorers, and in 9 generations of dogs, I have had exactly one URI. We set out, through highly selective breeding, to breed specimens with no patella luxation, a much less globular eye (one much less prone to scratching and dry eye), and none of the three traits associated with bracheocephalism.
This is certainly an odd place to be schooling you, but since you brought it up, there is no such thing as "highly bracheocephalic.". That's like being "highly pregnant" or "highly dead." A bracheocephalic dog does not have a snout, and three distinct potential, and distinct, problems CAN, but don't automatically, occur from this. One is stenotic nares, very narrow nostrils, through which it would be difficult to pass air. The second is an elongated soft palate, which extends into the trachea and potentially reduces air flow. Just as stenotic nares are plainly visible at an initial vet exam, an elongated soft palate is not only visible to a vet, but reveals itself by a clicking sound of the tissue flapping on inhalataion and exhalation. If a puppy has either of these conditions, a vet will deem it unfit for sale so that an unknowing buyer won't have heartbreak or major surgical bills someday. The third feature, a collapsing trachea, which if it were to occur, is a fatal event, and can occur at any time in any dog's life.
It requires selective breeding to, not unlike SSP decisions, determine which specimens to breed. Quite simply, you eliminate from consideration breeding any dog with any of these potentially-unhealthy traits; until this combination of "good" genes is reinforced in enough generations, recessive genes can emerge with an exception or two, but by the fifth generation, our vet, who had obviously examined all our puppies, said we had the best eyes, nares, palates, and knees he had ever seen in a pug. That makes for a dog that is happy and healthy for the longest time possible, making for equally happy parents. And of all the pugs we sent out into our extended family of pugs over the years (a family close enough to us to send many dozens of Xmas cards and routine updates every year), not a single owner ever reported a collapsing trachea.
While many dogs have physical jobs they are ingrained to do, like hunting, herding, fishing, or birding, pugs also have a job they were bred for--companionship. At one time, these there the dogs used to cheer up children in hospital wards, because they innately discern your moods and thoughts and minister to that or celebrate that. One line of our dogs included a little girl who could not only tell your mood, but howled if you had a headache or some physical ailment, as if feeling your pain. We called her the "Sensitive Soul," and new widows or those who had just lost their beloved dog would wait to reserve a puppy who would provide just this degree of empathy. They are, of course, also clowns born to entertain you and bring you joy. We even developed a line of athletic pugs, the forebear of which could jump a three-foot fence from a standing position and whose feet hardly seemed to touch the ground when running. There are reasons for pugs to be in this world, and in nine generations, we proved that this did not have to come at the cost of physical health.
For someone impertinent enough and insensitive enough to pick on someone's avatar that in no way relates to the thread at hand, I assume it's necessary to point out that we never made a dime on this venture. Doing what's best for animals always comes at a cost, and with many, many C-sections in addition to all the regular health and husbandry, we lost thousands of dollars each year despite selling puppies.
For the rest of you, two little tales that show why pugs belong on this is earth. First, the dog in my avatar that sent Batto into a rant is my 8th generation boy Otto, now 10, who has just passed me in age. At his recent dental cleaning, a passing vet remarked on his eyes, having no corneal scarring or dry eye, and his utterly silent breathing. Otto knows how hard a C4-C5 disk problem has made both writing and typing for me. As an English teacher, that's a lot of agony, because there are lots of essays and exams requiring my feedback. So whenever I do schoolwork, he's right there, very often sitting ON the schoolwork itself as if to take on my burden. If you look closely in my avatar, you'll see him sleeping on "blue books," little booklets of lined paper produced for exams. That's why this picture is my avatar. Breeding for medical soundness has enabled me to enjoy Otto, who is also "practically perfect in every way" from a conformity standard, empathizing with me and sharing some of the weight and the pride of my world.
Remember that third trait of bracheocephalic breeds, the collapsing trachea? Never a report of any--until it happened to me. Otto's father, Max, chose me as his human from the moment his eyes opened in the whelping box, and no one has ever loved me more. My ex-husband used to say he practically batted his eyelashes at me. At 11, he developed a lesion on his spine that resulted in hind-end pareses. He could not feel the sensation to urinate, so he had an in-dwelling systostomy tube placed into his abdomen with a bag to collect urine. I decided he should live in my bed. Otherwise, he'd be getting the bag stuck around chair legs and pulling out the tube and all sorts of other mischief. Since he could only pull himself around by his front legs, he didn't miss wandering. He lived in my bed, but I took him with me everywhere I went in the car, so we were still together, best buds. Then, in 2016, I had to have both of my knees replaced. I was only in the hospital 3 days, and my daughter was taking attentive care of him in my absence. But it didn't matter. He was beside himself, panicked that something had happened to me, and he barked and barked and barked in alarm, and nobody could calm him. He barked solid for about 60 hours, and the minute I got home, I could tell that his trachea had collapsed. We euthanized him the next day. It was a collapsed trachea caused by trauma, not genetics. My Max died at 13.5 of a collapsed trachea because he loved me so much. That love is why the pug as a breed is loved so much.
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They have released several males to the wild, which doesn't seem all that productive to me. But the center is also an almost bare bones effort. It would seem all it would take is a few hundred thousand of support to free up a small breeding herd for international dispersal (or frankly prob ably a lot lot less)
From what I've heard, the group kept by the Wild Camel Protection Foundation has several issues, among others hybridization with domestic camels. That, among other reasons, is why no western zoo wants to collaborate with them.
Oh, there is. Brachycephaly comes in different forms; there is a varying degree of how short the muzzle is in comparison to the general skull. The (fancy) breeding of pugs, bulldogs, Boston Terrier etc. started with dogs that had shorter muzzles than the average dog of comparable size, but were still able to breathe normally. Modern pedigree breeding standards have led to extremes of brachycephaly with severly shortened muzzles, with all the health issues that go along with it. That's why the Dutch have (thankfully) passed a change of breeding standards that forbids breeding with dogs of extreme grades of brachycephaly.
Dutch to crack down on breeding of dogs with too short snouts
So "Similar to how I feel about the poor highly brachycephalic pug you have as an avatar - they shouldn't exist in the first place." is a rant to you? How peculiar; I rather thought your lengthy reply that provided personal information was one. You asked a question how I personally feel about joyride elements in zoos; I gave you an honest answer. If you consider this as impertinent, so be it. Sorry for the loss of your dog.
Anyway, since this is already OT, let me just clarify: I like pugs; they can be charming and nice dogs. What I don't like is how extreme breeding standards lead to suffering animals. There's a German word for this kind of breeding, and I think it fits well; it's called "Qualzucht", i.e. torment breeding. And I think one should be honest enough to acknowledge that in its current, highly brachycephalic (sic) form, the pug can (all too often) be considered a Qualzucht. Therefore, kudos to the Dutch decision to change this for the sake of the animals.
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BTW: the correct spelling of the term is brachycephalic. ^^
I guess replace them with another African savanna species that can handle the climate like Olive Baboons or Patas Monkeys.
You’d be surprised how many kids actually do come to the zoo to see goats and chickens. The total engagement time I’ve noticed is very similar or longer than the normal ABC animals.
I think a lot of people are forgetting that modern zoos are multifaceted with conservation being the overall goal. Engagement, education, in/ex-situ programs, and entertainment all work together to reach that goal. Domestics, exotics, rides, theaters, all attract guests to the zoo where they then learn and engage in different ways. Not every kid or guest is the same so having a variety of things to do is necessary for a modern zoo.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
If you enter bracheocephalic, the spelling used here, in Wikipedia, you'll see that it's indeed an accepted alternate spelling. I maintain that a pug can not be "highly bracheocephalic," as this seeks to compare pugs with other pugs, who are equally bracheocephalic. Exaggeration reduces credibility.
I happen to agree with you that show standards have brought about the breathing problems so many bracheocephalic dogs have. The "long personal story" was an attempt to explain that pugs need not suffer for being bracheocephalic, that if a breeder is looking for medical soundness and not show conformity, the three traits comprising bracheocephaly CAN allow for full, normal breathing. One of my dogs just died at 18, another 17, and there have been such open airways in three generations that there hasn't even been a snorer. In your world, the human parents breeding snorers would be considered tormenters. Or those with allergies or asthma? After all, using the Dutch scale, humans turn out to be pretty bracheocephalic themselves. But we've already seen movements to selectively breed humans in the last century, haven't we?
This really gets back to an unexpected attack on a dog in a thread about what one hates to see in zoos. You're either too superior or too insecure to realize that this kind of personal hostility has no place on a forum of shared opinion and good will. As Dorothy said with shock to the Wizard, "Shame on you! Going after a little dog..." One doesn't get points for beating kids up and throwing them out of the sandbox. It just gets them elected president of the USA.
Neither does obstination increase it.
I failed to find the Wikipedia article that states that "bracheocephalic" is an accepted alternative spelling. Why not use the way more common spelling in the first place?
As the Dutch example correctly shows (and I've seen plenty of examples myself in real life), there can be different grades of brachycephaly in pugs, just as in other dog breeds. But if you consider yourself smarter than the Dutch, so be it.
Since you bring up the facial features of modern Hominidae (which aren't a result of eugenics): it has been argumented that the selective breeding for brachycephaly in animals is a more or less subliminal attempt to imitate the baby schema as proposed by Konrad Lorenz.
Neither has an argumentation ad hominem.
I think we're done here. Good luck with your dogs.
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This bothers me too. In the Minnesota Zoo I remember seeing musk oxen out on what was probably a 90 degree day. That had to have been miserable (this was a long time ago, I can't remember if they had water to swim in, or if musk oxen even swim). Sure it gets cold there in winter but summers can be hotter than hell. I think southern zoos should keep African, Indian, or other warm weather leopard subspecies. Zoos in cold climates keeping species that need to stay indoors a lot of the year is unpalatable to me as well. If you want to house species like that in a cold climate they still need a spacious enclosure in the winter.
I'd like to clarify quickly that I am not against farmyards in zoos and I agree with everything everyone was been saying about their benefits. My point was simply that I don't think a zoo without a farmyard would inherently see less visitation or popularity than a zoo with one, and that I don't think most people are not going to zoos to see domestic animals, even if those are the animals that will hold a child's attention the longest in most cases.
As a side note, do any zoos have a program where they adopt specifically dogs or cats, train them, and have supervised sessions where kids can interact and play with them? This is a concept I've thought about a few times and would imagine it'd be quite popular with most people.
~Thylo
As a side note, do any zoos have a program where they adopt specifically dogs or cats, train them, and have supervised sessions where kids can interact and play with them? This is a concept I've thought about a few times and would imagine it'd be quite popular with most people.
~Thylo
On a minor sidenote, my personal experience from visits to the continent is that many collections there tend to have domestic areas with a distinct focus on rare and local breeds, and that in these cases such areas are very much a strength of the collections in question 
perhaps unsurprisingly, one of the best is the one at Alpenzoo Innsbruck.
perhaps unsurprisingly, one of the best is the one at Alpenzoo Innsbruck.
WHAT!?!?!? Replace LEOPARDS (the BEST SPECIES ON EARTH) with monkeys?
No. I vote get Sri Lankans, Javans, Indians, Persians or Arabians. Anything to avoid replacing leopards. Or even get Africans from Columbus.
On a side note, I am not a fan of pugs, and I don't really find them that cute but...
Any one of these would be great, but from where? And why would they go through the trouble of importing any of these without the AZA or any other zoos supporting their new program. Also, Columbus doesn't have true African.
~Thylo
That is fair - there are almost no other subspecies of leopard in the USA. However, Maryland zoo holds Africans, and so does Zoo of Acadiana.
As for the AZA support, I believe that if they explained that they really wanted leopards and there are certainly other species than the amur leopard that need helping, they would be willing to make concessions and allow the import of North Persian leopards or Sri lankan leopards.
Afraid not
it's a bit like "Bengal Tigers" - places like to give their non-subspecifics a more prestigious name!
Afraid not
How unfortunate
