stardust circus elephants
- Thread starter Coquinguy
- Start date
I dont think circus bashing is the way to go. I dont think animals in circuses are badly treated and they should not be banned. I do though support managing the circus animals for their phisical and psychological well being. Pandering to animal rights groups needs to be avoided at all times. If they get circus animals banned they will just move onto something else. These groups only attack circuses because they believe that circuses are an easy target and they can get public suport.
circus boy
New Member
patrick to say im blind about wat goes on around the outside of circus is offensive This is my life you are talking about. Let me say this yes Back in the day things were done differently in training animals but these days you just cant do that and everyone knows that. these days animals are trained on rewards system when a animal performs in the ring and does the right thing it is givin somethin to eat as a reward just like you train you animals at home. exotic animals have been apart of circuses in Australia since the 1920's and still his one of the biggest acts in Australia now some people have different opinions on wether we should be alowed animals but there also many they love it. You watch a show and you see kids watching to big elephants walk into that ring and standing probably 5 metres away from is a experience that you will never forget. Now i can say that everyone picks on circuses because we are an easy target, but im not now you all know that circuses have been punished for things that were done wrong and thats fair enough but to say We circus people dont care about our animals is crap. Now finally there living conditions they have drinking water, food at all times they also have shade to keep them cool or keep them out of the weather. Now to say they need water to keep them from getting dry skin is correct i know that one circus as tought there elephants to turn on a huge fire hose that is connected to a water tank that allows them to cool them selves down, its not a huge big water hole but least its something!!!
show me. id'e like to read it.
no i don't!!! i don't have to accept it all all. i reserve the right to be whole-heartedly against it thankyou very much.
firstly, its not just animal activists that this the use of elephants, primates and big cats in circus' is cruel.
and secondly, i don't expect them to close down becuse or lose their exotics becuse i want them to. circus' have done it all on their own. you guys are going outta business, whether i want you too or not.
i never said you were blind to what goes on outside the circus. i was saying your blind as to what goes on inside the circus.
look honestly, i find it a little hard to believe that things have truly changed. but even if i give you the benifit of the doubt on training methods, i still find it hard to justify keeping the animals in such innapropriate enclosures. an issue frequently mentioned by us opposed but not once taken up by either of you.
never forget it in a bad way. i still feel horrendously guilty that i visited the moscow circus as a kid. exotic circus animals are not "one of the biggest acts in australia" in fact your circus' in general are not even close to being "one of the biggest acts in australia". lets be honest, the people that visit your circus are i'm afraid far outer suburban and country people who are short on entertainment (and i don't mean that as offensive to country people). when powderfinger and silverchair come to town i'm sure they pull a much bigger crowd.
look i don't get most of that paragraph. as far as saying you don't care for your exotic animals, i'm saying you think you care for them, but that you have a distorted vision of what that is..... you illustrate that for me in just a moment....
ah hah! and there it was. just then.
offering animals "at least something" doesn't mean you care for them properly.
you know circus people have every right in the world to operate. i got nothing against circus' per se. however, that doesn't mean you have the right to neglect animals and its my and many otehr peoples belief that as a general rule most circus' do. not everynone who thinks this are animal rights activists.
and its not always just about what you do...but what you dont do.
now feel free to reply but i'm not going to bother with conversation any longer. i don't have to much argue with you because i think it wont be long before circus' have no more exotics. certainly there will be no more elephants in circus' in 10 years time. hopefully, for your own sake, you'll have developed some new acts to substitute them by then.
PATRICK HERE IS AN ARTICLE YOU ASKED FOR. AND THERE ARE PLENTY MORE!
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Circus tigers 'perk' up before performing - Reports Discovery News
Circus tigers 'perk up' before performing
Circus tigers increase their pacing ahead of performances, say researchers, who believe such behaviour indicates the big cats positively anticipate their time on stage.
But an animal rights group disagrees, saying instead that the pacing is a sign of anxiety and dread.
Professor Ted Friend of the Department of Animal Science at Texas A&M University and colleagues report their study in the December issue of Applied Animal Behaviour Science.
The authors received cooperation and assistance from Feld Entertainment, Inc., the owners of Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus.
Previously, the researchers analysed other repetitive behaviour, such as weaving, in which a circus elephant moves its body or head from side to side.
They came to a similar conclusion, suggesting the animals perked up before performing.
"Elephants actually fight to do their act when they are held back," says Friend. "If the elephants are kept out of the ring, they will do their act outside."
"That is what the elephants are accustomed to do. It's like humans going to work every day."
Friend suggests that circus tigers reveal this sense of anticipation through pacing.
He and his colleagues videotaped four tigers before and after performances for five days in 2002 and for four days in 2003. The researchers determined that pacing increased before performances.
In 2002, for example, pacing rose by 37.5% three hours before a performance, and then shot to an increase of 54.33% one hour before the tigers went on stage.
Little if any pacing was observed after performances. The number of performances per day also had little influence on the percentage of overall pacing.
Friend attributes the pacing to the circus animals' enjoyment of performing.
"It's like a stalled horse that needs activity," he says. "Owners will come and ride the horse, which looks forward to the stimulation."
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Circus tigers 'perk' up before performing - Reports Discovery News
Circus tigers 'perk up' before performing
Circus tigers increase their pacing ahead of performances, say researchers, who believe such behaviour indicates the big cats positively anticipate their time on stage.
But an animal rights group disagrees, saying instead that the pacing is a sign of anxiety and dread.
Professor Ted Friend of the Department of Animal Science at Texas A&M University and colleagues report their study in the December issue of Applied Animal Behaviour Science.
The authors received cooperation and assistance from Feld Entertainment, Inc., the owners of Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus.
Previously, the researchers analysed other repetitive behaviour, such as weaving, in which a circus elephant moves its body or head from side to side.
They came to a similar conclusion, suggesting the animals perked up before performing.
"Elephants actually fight to do their act when they are held back," says Friend. "If the elephants are kept out of the ring, they will do their act outside."
"That is what the elephants are accustomed to do. It's like humans going to work every day."
Friend suggests that circus tigers reveal this sense of anticipation through pacing.
He and his colleagues videotaped four tigers before and after performances for five days in 2002 and for four days in 2003. The researchers determined that pacing increased before performances.
In 2002, for example, pacing rose by 37.5% three hours before a performance, and then shot to an increase of 54.33% one hour before the tigers went on stage.
Little if any pacing was observed after performances. The number of performances per day also had little influence on the percentage of overall pacing.
Friend attributes the pacing to the circus animals' enjoyment of performing.
"It's like a stalled horse that needs activity," he says. "Owners will come and ride the horse, which looks forward to the stimulation."
torie
Well-Known Member
This is an interesting article. It talks about pacing in the animals being a sign that the animals are excited about getting the chance to go on stage and preform but in a zoo situation keepers try to eradicate pacing as much as possible becuase it is attributed to bordem or stress..... so which is it? is pacing good or bad?
Elephants are intelegent animals what if they prefom their act outside the ring becuase they have lernt that preforming badly or not at all usually leads to punishment. This would mean that they preform outside when blocked from the ring to avoid this punishment, and so are preforming out of fear.
I know loads of people who hate going to work and whish they didnt have to
Elephants are intelegent animals what if they prefom their act outside the ring becuase they have lernt that preforming badly or not at all usually leads to punishment. This would mean that they preform outside when blocked from the ring to avoid this punishment, and so are preforming out of fear.
I know loads of people who hate going to work and whish they didnt have to
Previously, the researchers analysed other repetitive behaviour, such as weaving, in which a circus elephant moves its body or head from side to side.
this is what zoos call steryotypic behaviour. it's bad, and normally means boredom. and maybe they anticipate to go in just like torie said, so they are not punished.
this is what zoos call steryotypic behaviour. it's bad, and normally means boredom. and maybe they anticipate to go in just like torie said, so they are not punished.
circus boy
New Member
Patrick for starters you havent even seen my show secondly i dont have exotic animals in my show and thirdly mate quite honestly you can call us what ever you want wish whatever you want but at the end of the day your views dont count **** to me
then why are you arguing for exotic animals? we here are mainly concerned with monkies eles and big cats. we of course have feelings for all animals, but cats and dogs and horses, who have been trained for thousands of years, and are not as big or complex os big cats or eles, are better suited for circus shows, as long still as they are well treated!
Of course a circus animal is going to "perk up" before a performance... it means it has something to do, room to moveand stretch and kind of play... This is not me supporting this, as I have said before I am neutral onm this. Circus Boy... do you know what the minimum size of a circus cage for a lion or tiger is... 20 square metres... that's **** all. The minimum size for a zoo? ten times this, and infact in the last twelve months it has increased from 150 square metres. what would you do all day if you could only move from your caravan to the ring (i'm not having a go at your lifestyle) but atleast in a zoo environment they try to accomodate the animals as much to their natural environment as possible. How is it possible to do this in an enclosure smaller than my bedroom that is constantly moving all over the place. As for elephants... burma at Dubbo has had the stereotypical swaying in her for years... keepers don't hesitate to tell you that this is something she developed during her performing days with the Bullen's. I've worked with elephants in three countries and in different environments. I have never seen a wild elephant do that. I worked with elephants that were chained to a tree half the day, with the other half spent in the river and collecting food, or carrying tourists. They had sharp pointed ankus' and if they did the wrong thing were actually severely punished. however... not one of them showed stereotypical behaviour and one of them was 90 years old. It is my belief that the little bit of freedom given to them at bathing times and carrying tourists on safari's (long walks which allowed for natural wearing) and even collecting food keeps the animals reasonably happier. This is something a circus can not provide. they can love their animals all they want and train them using positive reinforcement but the fact is, and this is what I think everyone is saying, is that circuses just can't provide appropriately for animals such as elephants and big cats.
Amazing animals, not only can they jump through a flaming hoop but they can tell the time as well.
I can see it now, the tiger is in it's little cage with it's wrist watch on. it checks the time and notices that it's 3 hours to show time so up it gets and it starts with some light stretches to warm up. the tiger paces slowly for 2 hours getting it body ready. It looks at it's watch again. Only 1 hour to go before show time. It picks up the intensity until show time. then it's time for the big moment. It walks out into the big top and jumps through a hoop.
Amazing. Circuses are great.
i stand by Patrirck and my earlier opinions.
Circusboy, you made the point that Patrick hasnt been to see the Stardust Circus. I had an opportunity and wouldnt have went if they paid me and rolled out the red carpet. If you dont like a band, you dont go to the concert. I hate circus music.
It stinks of commercial exploitation of wildlife. It stinks of untrained inbreds born into a way of life who's only skill is to shovel up crap. What place is a small paddock, with only a non-secure electric fence, srrounded by caravans and bad Nelly Furtado music for an elephant? Wild elephants are partly aquatic, these two have no access to deep water. Where's the browse? The enrichment?
I find it an utter joke that these two animals are allowed to travel through NSW following years of legal wrangling between animal libbers and Tarnga Zoo resulting in such a contrasting set of conditions.
As for the vets who inspect these animals...who are they? Specialists in exotic animal medicine? Or local rural based vets who really know nothing about elephants and even if they did find something wrong couldnt chase it up after the circus leaves town.
I am no expert, but I have never, ever seen a zoo elephant in such a bad state as these two animals, even Heman when he was kept in the Temple compound.
I accept that as the welfare of these animals does register on the baseline concerns of the circus as they do represent a source of revenue and business. But I dont think we are living in a day and age where thi form of gross exploitation is acceptable. At the end of the day thats all it is. Circus and ZOOS are completely different with totally different agendas, and to say that a child being 5 metres from a performing elephants is going to engender some form of lifelong respect for animals is crap.
If people cannot get their children to a decent zoo, which Australia has plenty of, then tough ****. Go and find a beetle or something in the backyard and teach your kids about animals tht way.
And i dont care if Stardust Circus went bankrupt tomorrow. It would be an end to the apex of absolute and mostly hidden animal cruelty that is the circus.
Circusboy, you made the point that Patrick hasnt been to see the Stardust Circus. I had an opportunity and wouldnt have went if they paid me and rolled out the red carpet. If you dont like a band, you dont go to the concert. I hate circus music.
It stinks of commercial exploitation of wildlife. It stinks of untrained inbreds born into a way of life who's only skill is to shovel up crap. What place is a small paddock, with only a non-secure electric fence, srrounded by caravans and bad Nelly Furtado music for an elephant? Wild elephants are partly aquatic, these two have no access to deep water. Where's the browse? The enrichment?
I find it an utter joke that these two animals are allowed to travel through NSW following years of legal wrangling between animal libbers and Tarnga Zoo resulting in such a contrasting set of conditions.
As for the vets who inspect these animals...who are they? Specialists in exotic animal medicine? Or local rural based vets who really know nothing about elephants and even if they did find something wrong couldnt chase it up after the circus leaves town.
I am no expert, but I have never, ever seen a zoo elephant in such a bad state as these two animals, even Heman when he was kept in the Temple compound.
I accept that as the welfare of these animals does register on the baseline concerns of the circus as they do represent a source of revenue and business. But I dont think we are living in a day and age where thi form of gross exploitation is acceptable. At the end of the day thats all it is. Circus and ZOOS are completely different with totally different agendas, and to say that a child being 5 metres from a performing elephants is going to engender some form of lifelong respect for animals is crap.
If people cannot get their children to a decent zoo, which Australia has plenty of, then tough ****. Go and find a beetle or something in the backyard and teach your kids about animals tht way.
And i dont care if Stardust Circus went bankrupt tomorrow. It would be an end to the apex of absolute and mostly hidden animal cruelty that is the circus.
Animals in the circus never used to be a problem. How come it is now? The main draw card for the circus used to be the animals, and nowdays it is to for a wide stretch of the public. Why have all of a sudden since the early 90's people start to complain about the use of circus animals? The circues these days with animals still in their shows have nothing to be ashamed of. It's the way the circus has always been, & always will.
i dunno kyja, maybe becuse public opinion changes.
i never used to be a problem to refuse indigenous people citizenship also. i never used to be a problem for women to be paid less than men. it never used to be a problem to use CFC's in your refridgerator or to beat kids in schools if they talked back.
you say its the way of teh circus and always will be but yet the most proserous circus' in the world now are ones with no animal acts as policy.
wake up and stop living in the past. the "glory" days of menagarie circus life are over and you circus people are the only ones that give a ****.
i never used to be a problem to refuse indigenous people citizenship also. i never used to be a problem for women to be paid less than men. it never used to be a problem to use CFC's in your refridgerator or to beat kids in schools if they talked back.
you say its the way of teh circus and always will be but yet the most proserous circus' in the world now are ones with no animal acts as policy.
wake up and stop living in the past. the "glory" days of menagarie circus life are over and you circus people are the only ones that give a ****.
torie
Well-Known Member
It never used to be a problem for zoos to keep animals in tiny concrete cells but nowdays Zoos would never even consider doing such a thing. Times change and socities knowledge about animal welfare and all the things that animals need to thrive in captivity grows. so if zoos have moved on from the babaric (probably not the best word) treatment of animals in the past why cant circuses see that what they are doing is wrong and a very inhumane way of treating beautiful animals.
circus hater...
New Member
ban exotic animals in circuses
I am a circus hater, why u mite ask?? I protest with Animals LIberation at various circuses around Brisbane...
We went to a recent circus and found the owners feeding the large old chimp Maccas for lunch, fries, coke and hamburgers...
We were horrified, as we asked them why were they giving him this the reply we were given was 'ohhh he loves it'.
Of course he loved it, it was a regular thing, they said they gave him all the right things too, but i can only imagine it not being too often...
My sister and i ended up having a bit of an arguement with the chap in charge, lovely gentlemen he was too, mmmm i wonder why the employees look like they have come straight from Boggo Road Jail...
It is a sad, fearful and pitiful life for any large exotic animal in a circus, you only need to go and watch as they 'perform' for us humans... as they spin around on tiny barrels and stand on one leg all for our amusement..
I urge everyone to talk to people and if just one person changes their attitude about circuses well we have taken one step forward in their fight...
I have just heard that one circus elephant from Stardust circus has trampled a person and they have died from a heart attack...
for the animals..
Marea..
I am a circus hater, why u mite ask?? I protest with Animals LIberation at various circuses around Brisbane...
We went to a recent circus and found the owners feeding the large old chimp Maccas for lunch, fries, coke and hamburgers...
We were horrified, as we asked them why were they giving him this the reply we were given was 'ohhh he loves it'.
Of course he loved it, it was a regular thing, they said they gave him all the right things too, but i can only imagine it not being too often...
My sister and i ended up having a bit of an arguement with the chap in charge, lovely gentlemen he was too, mmmm i wonder why the employees look like they have come straight from Boggo Road Jail...
It is a sad, fearful and pitiful life for any large exotic animal in a circus, you only need to go and watch as they 'perform' for us humans... as they spin around on tiny barrels and stand on one leg all for our amusement..
I urge everyone to talk to people and if just one person changes their attitude about circuses well we have taken one step forward in their fight...
I have just heard that one circus elephant from Stardust circus has trampled a person and they have died from a heart attack...
for the animals..
Marea..