sumatran/javan rhinos

on-site captive breeding programs have massive advantages over programs abroad, and i think its imperative that we establish a captive sumatran population. cincinatti zoo should continue to breed the species, since they are the only place in the world with success, but all other efforts shoud be based at these centers, and i would like to see all zoos take a much larger role in supporting them.

all hope relies on the animals currently at these centers breeding.....
 
tht is always my qn, why carnt our zoos, collectively sponser, buy land to have an austrlasian park, colchester zoo is doing it in africa, they are doing a big safri park, jst like all the game reserves there, excpet from tht zoo, and hopefully in future release own aniamls there..

if we did tht in samatra, we could release orangs there, breed rhino and tiger, and mayb have some orang pendek ;)
 
sumatran rhinos

I don't think we will ever see them sent to zoos abroad again, after the massive failure of the exports of the 1980's/90's. Only Cincinnati emerged as successful- now they are in the forefront of the science(induced ovulation etc) with this species- their experts are currently advising on care for the animals in the Asian centres (Way Kambas anyway) which so far haven't had any real success with breeding these difficult animals.

Andalas went to L.A. because they(L.A.) loaned Emi to Cincinnati for breeding(most of the seven rhinos sent to America had already died by then so it was a last ditch effort which, amazingly, paid off. When he goes back to Asia, LA probably won't be able to get another.

Re the pair at Sepilok- I fear there's little chance they will ever breed successfully if the female is already 25 years old. It doesn't look hopeful.
 
no, i get the SOS rhino newsletter and i am constantly disappointed with it the news. its boring and they never mention anything on the attempts to breed the rhino.

andalas has no reason being at LA and i was very glad when i heard they were sending him back to malaysia. whilst the idea of sending any additional animals to cincinatti makes me feel uneasy, maybe its worth a shot, since they are having such good luck with emi and ipuh. even better would be if the zoo got another unrelated pair, but maybe first the zoo should focus on replicating their sucess with the sanctuaries in asia...
 
In a newsletter from Cinci zoo they mentioned extending the rhino exhibit to allow for future breeding - allowing unrelated pairings. So it looks like they are planning to obtain other animals in the future. Pat why do you feel uneasy about this?
 
i think that the american zoos should coordinate a similar approach to this species as they have with the giant panda.
most of the breakthrough research into giant panda research is either being done in the us or in china with funds raised by american zoos.
hopefully a similar plan could work for the sumatran rhinos. at the minute it would probably be best to try and revitalise both the in-situ and ex-situ levels of the program. its unfortunate that the export of wild rhinos in the 1980s/1990s set such a poor precedent because i feel an insurance population of these animals within america, australsia or asia itself, as well as breeding centres within the animals range states could play a vital role in this animals conservation.
the rhinos numbers in parks would have to be closely studied to ensure any animals removed from the wild would open up space for 'baby rhinos' and not jeapordise the wild population.
any rhinos captured should be sent to a breeding compound in indonesia, similar to western plains zoo, perhaps built by funds from the international rhino foundation and western zoos.
once that poulation is reproducing consistently then an insurance poulation would be established overseas.
the zoos role would be education, fund raising, research and of course breeding. whatever happens, this species needs a drastic yet sensible approach.
 
weighing up the risks....

i feel uneasy about this because, without discrediting cincinatti's efforts, i feel that maybe the sucess with keeping their rhinos alive is in part luck. not luck that they cared properly for them but luck that they had a pair that adapted well to captivity in foreign country. you can't deny that their are plenty of other "good" western zoos that failed miserably at keeping this species alive in captivity.

i'm worried that whilst the cincinatti pair are safe and well there (and obviously any of their offspring born into that environment) that might not necesarily be that case for another wild caught rhino taken to america's temperate north....
 
sumatran rhinos

Patrick- I agree and disagree with you both at once over your comments about Cincinatti's captive breeding versus in -situ programmes in the Asian breeding centres.

I agree that it is better for this species to be managed in in-situ centres in Asia where temperature/surroundings/food etc are same as in the wild- the animals are simply being protected in large captive enclosures from poaching etc. EXCEPT this still seems such a difficult species to breed and they haven't so far had any good results at either Way Kambas or Sepilok(not to mention Sungai Dusun) I do think the in-situ centres will benefit from the scientific breakthroughs made at Cincinnati since they've been working with this species.

But I disagree that Cincinatti have been 'lucky' with their pair. I think the luck was that among the female Sumatran rhinos sent to America there was a very young one- Emi. I'll agree most of the others died due to welfare problems/wrong diet etc before they learned enough about them though having elderly animals(like Bronx's Rapunzel who died not that long ago) didn't help either.. But Cincinatti have come along way from that- with Emi expecting her third calf, Andalas going back to Asia and the female calf Suci as a future breeder- either at Cincinnati or elsewhere.

What is the future for the animals in Cincinatti?- They hope Emi will have 2 or 3 more though Ipuh isn't young anymore. They also say they need to breed from Suci soon as she is ready too as they now know these animals(the females) shouldn't be left unbred as it causes reproductive problems. At present the only male available in USA is Ipuh- her father. So either they need a 2nd unrelated male now, or Suci has to leave Cincinnati(or they could inbreed...) If Suci was sent from USA to Way Kambas, the likely breeding male will still be her brother Andalas! (I mentioned Torgamba has health problems so may never breed now). Its the usual problem with such a small 'pool' of animals.

What would you like to see happen to Suci- the female calf at Cincinnati?

I think Andalas was only placed at L.A. on a temporary basis- there wouldn't have been any justification for keeping him there permanently. I think sending him to Way Kambas is a logical move. Not sure if its worth transporting the old female Bina to the USA -though maybe they feel anything is worth a shot. Again, she is pretty old I think.

Lastly, an interesting thought,- at present just four females; Emi & Suci in America, and Rosa and Ratu at Way Kambas- may hold the future outcome of captive breeding for the whole species.
 
bornean sumatran rhino pair

Patrick/glyn- All I ever read in those internet IRF and SOS Rhino reports about Tangeung & Gologob is that they are constantly 'monitoring the hormone levels' to find the best times to introduce them etc. This seems to have been going on for years now without further result. I don't think there is anything else for them to report.(no news= bad news...)
 
you make some very logical points grant. and as i said in my first post, maybe its worth a shot? but with such few animals i think its a very, very delicate situation...

your spot on with the rhino in borneo.its been monitoring for years. when are thy going to try something different. why is it not working? personally, i think we should be planning ahead for a worst case scenario. with such rare animals as these, i would like to think that at the very least we are preserving semen from the males and DNA samples from dead captive animals such as repunzel. lets face it - what if in 20 years the species is extinct in the wild but suffering chronically from inbreeding due to a miniscule founder population. at that stage will you be asking why didn't we save any clonable DNA from all the captive ones we had that died?

i think the situation with sumatran rhinos is so serious and could deteriorate so rapidly (and i know how slow we are to act on these issues - lest i remind anyone of the yangtze river dolphin) that the CBP should be doing just about anything to establish an insurance population. that includes hybridising the two subspecies if need be...
 
Yes Patrick- I agree with all of your latest statement about saving all possible material from the dead rhinos.. Sumatrans are really critical now- the success at Cincinnati is not going to make much difference in the long run unless they can get the numbers to increase rapidly and with such a long gestation period its not easy either. I feel a little more hopeful since the birth and rearing of the female calf- Suci. It might be safer if she remains in America though (preferably at Cincinnati) rather than risk transporting her.

Re the Bornean subspecies- if they can't find more Bornean animals to breed from, as you said, maybe they should consider using any available animal- whichever race.
I think the two at Sepilok are simply too old- seems to be the problem with quite a few of the Sumatrans that find their way into captivity.
 
the male might be still viable? you'd think if he was they would know, or maybe they are so busy monitoring her hormones that they haven't yet got around to that?!!! ;)

you may be right that a precious female such as suci, raised in captivity, might be best of staying in cincinatti if they can bring a mate to her. if anadalas can be sent to indonesia asap - maybe they can send the older male and female at way kambas to cincinatti? if they appear as if they are going to die unbred, maybe its wort one last shot there. they then would have the unlikely option of trying to breed them together (creating a second bloodline which would be great) or, they could try and breed the female with ipuh and the male with sucu - which seems important whilst she is still a very young animal. the western subspecies male is apparently only 15, but i don't recommend sending suci there.....

i can't help but feel these breeding centers in sumatra and borneo arn't getting the funding and support they deserve. not from NGO's, zoos or their governments (which is no supprise). they really should have all the assets and knowledge and expertise that cincinatti have...
 
now on a note tht mnay may oppose, i would have always thought im my perfect taronga, the elephants would go to dubbo, and then taronga holds a few samtrans in its encloure, yes sounds silly, but i wouldnt mind :)

and then at dubbo build a big breeding centre, excpet in the lower wooded section of the zoo over say 40 acres, and have all the yards separate, and all connected by chutes to a central service.

then put another rhino in the exhibit where dora is, and put him on a new asian savannah with kua, and all the asian species. converting the asian wetlands exhibit, into an asian rainforest, with otters, and a immersion trail to sumatran tigers

a bloke can dream, though i do reakon, all breeding of sumtans and javan should be done in wild, or near wild situiations, ie in samtra and kalimatan thiland etc.
 
the indonesian government itself is one reason why i would hesitate to put all the rhinos in one basket, so to speak...how would they fund the conservation program for sumatran rhinoceros? illegal logging or palm oil exports.
this is such a corrupt country and this species is so critically endangered i cant hep but feel the plight of this species is a little like western plain's black rhinos, who came from zimbabwe.
i once read a report on cincinatti breeding the rhinos, and apparently one of the husbandry breakthroughs they discovered was nothing high-tech. the animals simply needed alot of browse.
as i said earlier the export of these animals from indonesia years ago was nothing short of disastrous, but for how much longer can we monitor and study their steady decline towards extinction???
as i type this, i cant help but feel a little sad that this species could soon vanish, forever
 
yes i viewed a doco on rhinos, and it featres cincy zoo, and the browse was the only thing stopping them from breeding, now each week a enourmous amount is flown from califonia , its a special species.

also this is why many samatrans died when there was a huge effort to bring in captive poulation. there was 40 animals 'rescued', and nealry alll died as they didnt have browse
 
indonesia, may like so many other non first-world nations, suffer from the cripples of corruption, but that doesn't mean you can't still get things done.

their is little doubt in my mind that the future for this species (if indeed we can create one) lies in indonesia, not cincinatti.

the current captive population is completely unviable and to establish one, we will most certainly be needing to rely on "rescued" animals from the wild. these can only be found in indonesia.

either the way kambas facility has money and expertese poured into it, or there will be no sumatran captive population.

glyn, whilst i understand you point about putting "all our rhinos in the one basket" may i suggest that at the present we don't even have enough rhinos to fill one basket?
 
lol good point pat, and it really is sad, when we say 1 basket, why couldnt zoos, put all there money in a basket, and distribute it around, it needs doing, and in my mind, why hasnt the world zoo community, as a whole set up major in-situ centresn say 1 in zimbawae, and another in samatra. cholchester zoo is doing thta now as i mention before, google it, its an amazing project
 
cincinnati sumatran rhinos.

They wouldn't eat and were losing condition badly until they discovered they liked something called FICUS- that's the browse they get now.

However there's more to it than that. All the business about being induced ovulators(having to mate before eggs were released by the female for conception) was only discovered through the problems they encountered in trying to get the two animals to breed at Cincinatti.

Also, Emi had five failed pregnancies before they started the hormonal treatment with progesterone which allowed her to produce Andalas successfully. So you can't really say there was no science involved. Fortunately she was so young she still had/has plenty of breeding years ahead of her. Ipuh on the other hand could be well past his prime now.

They have also had problems with 'cloudy eyes'- all the Sumatrans removed from the wild have suffered from this- maybe like your Australian Malayan tapirs- too much exposure to bright sunlight for a forest animal? I don't know if they have found a remedy for this.(more shade?)

Re future breeding at Cincinnati. There isn't much point in sending Torgamba from Way Kambas if he is not healthy anymore- but they definately did say they were considering sending Bina to the USA to try and mate her with Ipuh- as their 'constant hormonal monitoring' shows she is still cycling. I agree Torgamba at Way Kambas is the only current (captive)unrelated partner for Suci unless they are prepared to inbreed OR try using the male from Sepilok(dif. subspecies) As Patrick says- there's still a good chance he could be useful, even if the female Geologob is now too old.
 
ficus are figs, which would make sense as they are common rainforest trees. Is it the leaves, the fruit or both that the rhinos like?
 
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