toothlessjaws
Well-Known Member
The last mainland population was "rediscovered" in Cat Tien N.P the early to mid 2000's only to be declared extinct by the end of that decade.
Sumatran Rhino news thread
- Thread starter Moebelle
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The last mainland population was "rediscovered" in Cat Tien N.P the early to mid 2000's only to be declared extinct by the end of that decade.
Probably a big understatement. Still all talk and no fresh action, though the Pandemic has probably given a genuine excuse for more inaction this time around.
Still trying to save the species :
Every Sumatran rhino has died in Malaysia. Scientists want to bring them back with cloning technology - CNN
Every Sumatran rhino has died in Malaysia. Scientists want to bring them back with cloning technology - CNN
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Honestly, I am generally an optimist when it comes to species conservation but all of the news coming out of Asia about the conservation of the Sumatran rhino is really enough to make a person feel a deep despair about the future of this animal.
I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating it must be for the people on the ground trying year after year and decade after decade to save this species only for things to be continually stymied, stalled and sabotaged.
I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating it must be for the people on the ground trying year after year and decade after decade to save this species only for things to be continually stymied, stalled and sabotaged.
Malaysia and Indonesia couldn't work together to coordinate moving a live animal between them, or even coordinate moving sperm for AI between them, but they think they can coordinate a cloning program between them?
They're also genuinely very optimistic if they think another species of rhino can be used as the surrogate...
~Thylo
I think you find the mainland population was rediscovered in the mid to late 80s after an American scientist who found rhino parts being sold at a local market place which he went on to investigate this further!
toothlessjaws
Well-Known Member
The science behind a successful cloning is likely going to take decades. Theres no point sitting on your hands under the assumption the politics will always remain the same.
Its a plausible scenario to me that 25 years from now, Sumatran rhinos are extinct in the wild and the failed captive breeding program is down to just one breeding age female...
BUT we have the technology to create viable embryos, the knowledge of how to perform IVF procedures in rhinos and DNA samples of 23 different individual Sumatran rhinoceros in various freezers around the world.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I honestly don't think it is as much over optimism as it is clutching at straws and saving face because things have become so screwed up that there is a need to try to justify inaction or lack of collaboration. I think they do this by proposing some kind of other "alternative" (no matter if this just isn't viable) for the media and public opinion in order to make themselves look better.
Again, I think they are largely getting away with this strategy and not being held to account because the world's attention is way way too focused on the situation facing the poaching of rhinos in Africa which gets far greater (and unwarranted in my opinion) media coverage.
Sorry to anyone offended by my cynicism on this matter but I am just speaking my mind about the way I see things heading with this species. Needless to say, sadly I dont feel very optimistic at all about it's future but I wish I felt otherwise.
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toothlessjaws
Well-Known Member
No, its absolutely heartbreaking but I feel the same. I make regular donations through IRF and have the utmost faith in those working at Way Kambas, but i'm far from optimistic. Hopefully, if they can get a few more animals at the facility they have more options for partners for the rhinos. I'm guessing they are rather picky. But the animals living in the wild are few and much fewer still will be young, breeding-age animals. It's all very depressing.
Does anyone know if there is a bank of properly stored tissue samples of Javan rhino? Now they are a good candidate for cloning. I'd imagine an Indian rhino would make a perfectly good surrogate.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Judging by this paper from 2006 there are indeed some stored tissue samples in various natural history museums in Europe and South-East Asia.
But it would appear these are from very old specimens and I don't think it would be adequate for anything like cloning.
I think in order to get viable ones it would be necessary to actually obtain them somehow from extant Javan rhinos and that could be a tricky undertaking for a variety of reasons both political / human, logistical and presumably in terms of risks posed to the animals.
http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/124/1245662536.pdf
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Just found this on youtube, quite interesting. It hasn't already been posted so I thought I would add it to the thread.
When you say "successful cloning" to you mean cloning to a point to where an entire population can be created using it? If so, I'd agree. I'd imagine much of the zoo world is watching SDZSP's Northern White Rhino project with baited breath, though.
I don't think cloning of the Sumatran Rhinoceros will be viable while the species is still extant. I honestly don't see this species surviving until cloning can be done at a rate good enough to save the species. I think the artificial womb is where we'll have to hold out our hopes, if that ever even becomes a viable solution...
For the time being, Indonesia needs to work on moving their remaining animals together in order to up the chances of breeding. We need an Ujung Kulon for Sumatran Rhinos. With the difficulties of COVID on the country (as well as all countries) at the moment, though, I don't see the chances of movement on this plan coming to fruition
~Thylo
toothlessjaws
Well-Known Member
Yes. I do think this is a science on the brink of some really big achievements, but there is a lot of hurdles to jump and master before we are cloning new founder colonies of rhinos.
I very much hope you're wrong. If mastering cloning is 25 years away, the artificial womb is probably the same again. The species would be in a much better position if we had at least managed to hold onto a small group of (albeit heavily inbred) rhinos to carry these clones. But I hope the artificial womb thing happens sooner, because I'd very much like to see a Thylacine before I die!
We do.
Although I think the Javans would benefit from a Way Kambas style semi-wild sanctuary at this point as well.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
The way things are going I imagine that a quarter of century from now there will probably be barely enough rhinos to count on one hand if that.
I also very cynically believe that the Indonesians and Malaysians will still be making excuses as to why they are not cooperating to save the species or doing anything meaningful right up until it goes extinct.
Hope I'm wrong about that.
Agreed partially!
Way Kambas and G. Leuser are perhaps one of the few glimmers of hope for the species. Forget Malaysia, that population - mainland and Bornean - is totally gone. There is only a Bornean population left in the deepest eastern Kalimantan Indonesia forest complex. In fairness, it seems now that the fate of the Sumatran rhino is cemented in how Indonesian conservation authorities manage to work with their own field staff on the ground to secure a future for Sumatran rhino in the country. The population has plummeted from 250-300 to below 80 individuals now. No time to waste ....
BTW: I do not believe that a cloning project (or even with Javan rhino) is even an option in the Sumatran rhino. Natural reproduction looks to be achieved by bulls mating cows repeatedly to induce cycling in the cows and thus reproductive fecundity. No other way ....
I am completely against cloning in conservation. If we lose the Sumatran Rhino, let it be yet another lesson to the world that extinction is forever.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Interesting (and very different) perspective , but out of curiosity why do you personally feel so strongly against the idea of cloning this species ?
I fear that if we have the power to bring any species that might go extinct, extinction will mean noting. The people of the future will let species go extinct because "we can always clone another one" and much of the motivation for conservation will be lost.
This is a concern that was been heavily debated and discussed by those working on cloning technology. Some people will inevitably come to this conclusion, but we already have people who refuse to believe certain animals are actually at risk of extinction due to on-going conservation efforts having delayed their predicted extinction times. There will always be nutjobs who'll believe what they believe, education of the majority of the public will be as important then as it is now. It's no real reason to just throw your hands up and let animals go extinct when there is something that can be done about it
~Thylo
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Ah I see, that is an interesting ethical perspective and I mostly share it when it comes to bringing back through cloning historically extinct species like the thylacine, passenger pigeon etc.
In my case I believe (like you do) that cloning could potentially trivialize the perception of species extinctions by the public and by implication the entire crisis of biodiversity loss. If species can be "resurrected" so easily it takes away the value of conserving them, I agree.
However, I also think that cloning extinct species is just a colossal (and insane in my opinion) waste of much needed money that could be allocated to attempts to conserve species that are still extant and at a critical time when we can ill afford to be wasting these resources.
But I think when it comes to the Sumatran rhino I do feel differently about the ethics of the (admittedly slim) possibility of cloning it. I think I probably feel this way because the species is still extant and so I think we should throw everything we have got to keeping it that way and preventing an outright extinction.
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