Sumatran Rhino Pregnant

fantastique!

this is great because i have always felt that the best chance of success is with an in situ breeding program. the fact that the worlds only breeding pair was in a very cold part of america, only strengthened the argument that the animals would do best in western zoos, an attitude that i felt was getting in the way of real progress.

we now have a rather tricky scenario. if torgamba is indeed infertile then all the potential pairings in the global captive population have at least one member from the cincy lineage. i feel its too risky sending any of the wild caught females to america and since the US population is entirely made up of andalas close relatives anyway, there is not much much point. they may as well stay in indonesia and be mated to him.

so what to do with the US animals?

i guess inbreed them - the long-term success of the SR breeding program is completely dependent on more founders becoming available. that will happen either opportunistically, via rescues or from capture.

capture can only be justified if the program proves it can replicate success over and over again. thus, for the time being, cincy should attempt to inbreed their 2.1 animals with hari and suci both being young they could theoretically produce a number of animals. eventually, if both regions breed up multiple animals then i condone transfers either way, but i think as a matter of policy, its wise to never send wild caught animals overseas again. this is because the stress of the trip, foreign germs, foodstuffs, climate etc is all heightened for a wild caught animal. first generation captives however, with "back up" siblings - do it.

either way - there is not much room to move at the moment. best they just sit tight and "breed up".
 
phoenix said:
So what to do with the US animals?

i guess inbreed them - the long-term success of the SR breeding program is completely dependent on more founders becoming available. that will happen either opportunistically, via rescues or from capture.
capture can only be justified if the program proves it can replicate success over and over again. thus, for the time being, cincy should attempt to inbreed their 2.1 animals with hari and suci both being young they could theoretically produce a number of animals.
This problem has been a frequent source of discussion in this Forum. We just don't know what the organisers have in mind for the Cincinnati animals.

However the only potential for inbreeding would be between the nearly mature female 'Suci' and her father 'Ipuh.' The younger male 'Hari' now at White Oaks Conservation Centre will not be mature for another four years or more so his contribution can be disregarded at present.

I have a feeling they will still try to come up with some scheme to avoid inbreeding e.g. AI but with what donor?
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Dicerorhinus said:
CRES has viable semen from several males (some now deceased) in storage.
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thats great news. and is a massive lifeline to the program. only i suspect they are a long way off mastering AI with the species. thus they are probably best attempting AI with a living donor such as Ipuh, Anadlas or even better torgamba (do we have confirmation he is sterile?), just to master the art, before risking wasting any of the samples from unrelated stock.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
CRES has viable semen from several males (some now deceased) in storage.
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In that case they may try AI. They can monitor her cycles but being induced ovulators, how do they get the female into top condition for the procedure-introduce her to her father but seperate them before actual mating?
 
Pertinax,

Sumatran Rhinos are indeed induced ovulators, however ovulation is induced mechanically and so copulation needs to occur [as is the case with rabbits]. [With Camels for example ovulation is induced through the presence of male pheromones].


This isn’t to say it’s impossible to have successful AI with an induced ovulator as it has successfully been achieved with Koalas. It’s no secret how difficult AI is with rhinoceros even without induced ovulation as a factor.

In my opinion [and I know it controversial] the best way to proceed would be to capture another 1.2 or 2.2 animals [I know that represents at the very least 4% of all that remain] transferring at least 1.2 out to the USA and perhaps maintain 1.0 at SRS.

There are currently 2.1 animals in the US that are viable now or will be in the future [all related] adding another 1.2 would give many pairing options. I also believe all the US animals should be moved to a purpose built facility in the South East where climate is more favourable [Perhaps White Oak or even the Animal Kingdom], at least until the population appears stable.

So much time, effort and expense has been invested in this captive breeding program and it’s only now that we’re seeing real success just when there are not enough reproductively viable animals to continue.

It’s better to remove animals now while there are isolated individuals, many mistakes were made in the past and these have proved costly but the program needs to move forward and to do so the inescapable fact is more animals are needed.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
Pertinax,
In my opinion [and I know it controversial] the best way to proceed would be to capture another 1.2 or 2.2 animals [I know that represents at the very least 4% of all that remain] transferring at least 1.2 out to the USA and perhaps maintain 1.0 at SRS.
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i don't see how its in the species benefit to capture wild animals and send them to a zoo in the US - be it in totally unsuitable cincinnati or someplace warmer like DAK. why not just consolidate the population in indonesia?

i think its important to move forward, but to tread carefully. baby steps, so to speak. for the time being, genetics are not quite as important as replicating successful births with alternate pairings, be them related or not. you would have to have a very high chance of success to justify wild capture - odds that currently do not add up.
 
Like it or not most of the funding for the program comes from the US, they are also responsible for all of the success thus far within the program. Not to mention the vastly superior technology and resources at close hand.

The fact is the longer wild capture is put off the more difficult it becomes to justify. Without new blood the captive breeding program is dead just when it is showing success. At the moment there are still scattered and isolated individuals on Sumatra whos genes are lost. Removing them will not affect the long term status of the species in the wild.

Time is something the species doesn’t have its known that 200 is a very generous estimate and the real number is likely closer to 150. The Sumatran Rhinoceros doesn’t have the same protection that saved the Javan Rhinoceros.

While it’s a romantic thought to keep the program in Indonesia, lets not forget the catastrophic events at Sungui Dusan which to be blunt occurred because of bad management.

You should know by now that one of the key principles of conservation is to not have all your eggs in one basket.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
You should know by now that one of the key principles of conservation is to not have all your eggs in one basket.
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Isn't a wild capture and sending all to the US just doing the same? :confused: I prefer them to see whether Suci is viable breeder first before sanctioning any more wild captures. So much rest on her head even if they did capture 1.2 who’s to say they will breed.

Lets work on what we have before potentially wasting more lives (Thou we could have the same probably after Suci is deemed viable breeder) One step at time is the way to go, look at what happened last time. Just shows you we need smaller steps in this program.
 
Not at all. IF more were to be sent to the US then there would be at least 2 facilites working with the species. Both of which have excellent records with husbandry.

You dont seem to understand that no Sumatran Rhinos for the (SRT) have ever been taken from viable populations. They were all Isolated individuals or taken from areas shceduled for clearing. The captive breeding program had no impact on the current wild animals (apart from funding RPUs).

I have worked in Wildlife conservation for too long to know that if you take "one step at at time" you miss the boat.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
While it’s a romantic thought to keep the program in Indonesia, lets not forget the catastrophic events at Sungui Dusan which to be blunt occurred because of bad management.
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well i think the above statement pretty much confirms my suspicions as to where your views are stemming from.

for the record:

Sungui Dusin was in MA-LAY-SIA.

the way kambas faciliy is in IN-DON-ESIA.

two different facilities in two different counties staffed by different people.

funny you forgive the americans for all their disasters but not the indonesians for mistakes made by another asian country.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
Not at all. IF more were to be sent to the US then there would be at least 2 facilites working with the species. Both of which have excellent records with husbandry.

You dont seem to understand that no Sumatran Rhinos for the (SRT) have ever been taken from viable populations. They were all Isolated individuals or taken from areas shceduled for clearing. The captive breeding program had no impact on the current wild animals (apart from funding RPUs).

I have worked in Wildlife conservation for too long to know that if you take "one step at time" you miss the boat.
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Even if a place has excellent husbandry records does not mean they can get an infertile rhino to breed.

Secondly am well aware of where most of the current population where obtained.

And lastly am all for a couple more captured but until we can prove that we have at least a few more rhinos that are fertile and able to breed I don't see the point in bringing more in.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
Not at all. IF more were to be sent to the US then there would be at least 2 facilites working with the species. Both of which have excellent records with husbandry.

You dont seem to understand that no Sumatran Rhinos for the (SRT) have ever been taken from viable populations. They were all Isolated individuals or taken from areas shceduled for clearing. The captive breeding program had no impact on the current wild animals (apart from funding RPUs).

I have worked in Wildlife conservation for too long to know that if you take "one step at at time" you miss the boat.
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I tend to agree with you. It IS basic conservation rationale and both the US and Indonesia parts of the programme now work towards a common goal and use the same techniques. I have been advocating for years that from a population management and genetics point of view the population needs to be more robust and the 2-tier approach in spreading out the programme between different Continents and conservation breeding regions.

This would - IMO - entail capture of outlier rhinos for the captive-breeding project. Both Cincinnati Zoo and White Oak have wonderful and now applicable facilities and I do not see why that would in any way compromise the programme as a whole. Besides let us not forget both zoos are the prime drivers of the ex situ conservation funding and PA effort. The techniques now applied at Way Kambas originate from baseline research at Cincinnati Zoo and AZA.

It is imperative that same effort be applied too to the Borneon Sumatran captive and in situ population. And lest any of you forget both the Bornean (25-50) and Sumatran Dicerorhinus (175-225) wild populations are under severe threat of extinction and will require much direct intervention and various applied scientific techniques and assisted technology in order to increase their numbers exponentially. This is on top of the current RPU efforts sponsorred by the captive community and international conservation NGO's which has stabilised in situ wild conservation efforts. Thus, now is the opportune moment to take the programme further. And it is not wise to wait for Suci to mature ..., if a capture effort is planned now it will probably not happen before 2012/13 as funding needs to be in place (f.i. Andalas transfer took 1-2 years of planning effort and diplomacy).

Mistakes in past management were in part avoidable, part unavoidable (but it is all in hindsight, so easy to downlist or deride), however we can and could not be complacent and it WAS basically a learning curve (both the demise of many US Sumatrans and the entire Sungai Dusun programme in Malaysia). What I do concur is that the scale of the ex situ effort outside range nations was somewhat disproportionate to the entire programme in situ range nations. But that equally IS just in hindsight. And finally (and also in hindsight) perhaps there also was a different style of leadership/research application of the US/AZA vs. the previous European handling of these programmes (as evidenced by the initial management by PL/JAF and its perhaps more realistic approach and design of the entire capture-breeding effort.
 
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