Sumatran Rhino Pregnant

[Pertinax]

I have worked in Wildlife conservation for too long to know that if you take "one step at at time" you miss the boat.

That is an important point. Emi's death was a huge shock and very unexpected- suddenly they have lost the lynchpin of the breeding programme.

Whether Suci can replicate her mother's success remains to be seen but they will have to do something soon now. They must have plans in place already. The worst case scenario would be to have no way of being able to breed from her, either because AI doesn't work, or there is no male partner- or both...

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

That is an important point. Emi's death was a huge shock and very unexpected- suddenly they have lost the lynchpin of the breeding programme.

Whether Suci can replicate her mother's success remains to be seen but they will have to do something soon now. They must have plans in place already. The worst case scenario would be to have no way of being able to breed from her, either because AI doesn't work, or there is no male partner- or both...

Hi Pertinax,

This is indeed the very reason both of us advocate capture of another male unrelated to the current female in Cincinnati in order that she may breed. Given the need for pre-mating and ritual chasing in Sumatrans in order to have the female ovulate, it be imperative to get in another unrelated male (allowing for inbreeding would constitute perhaps nailing in another nail in their coffin as careful genetic management is needed in SMP biology and genetics than become ever more important.

I would further advocate that at least it be investigated whether Ipuh health-wise and logistics-wise could perhaps be relocated to Way Kambas in order to mate the elderly female or Rosa. Alternatively, perhaps a need for 1.1 new founders ....

 

[Dicerorhinus]

well i think the above statement pretty much confirms my suspicions as to where your views are stemming from.

for the record:

Sungui Dusin was in MA-LAY-SIA.

the way kambas faciliy is in IN-DON-ESIA.

two different facilities in two different counties staffed by different people.

funny you forgive the americans for all their disasters but not the indonesians for mistakes made by another asian country.

I am well aware of the fact SRS is in Indonesia and SD is Malaysia as I spent months at each collecting data for my MSc project.

I assure you my views are formed from many months first hand experience of both (and also Sepilok) as well as 3 US collections.

Actually there are SD staff at SRS.

However the point I was making (which you so skilfully managed to misinterpret) is that there is no sense in risking another disaster by keeping more than a handful of animals in an environment which is infinitely harder to manage.

Don't be fooled for a minute that the IFC care about Sumatran Rhino Conservation, the species would very likely be extinct already if weren’t for the Americans funding and expertise.

 

[phoenix]

It is imperative that same effort be applied too to the Borneon Sumatran captive and in situ population.

what captive population?

 

[Dicerorhinus]

I tend to agree with you. It IS basic conservation rationale and both the US and Indonesia parts of the programme now work towards a common goal and use the same techniques. I have been advocating for years that from a population management and genetics point of view the population needs to be more robust and the 2-tier approach in spreading out the programme between different Continents and conservation breeding regions.

This would - IMO - entail capture of outlier rhinos for the captive-breeding project. Both Cincinnati Zoo and White Oak have wonderful and now applicable facilities and I do not see why that would in any way compromise the programme as a whole. Besides let us not forget both zoos are the prime drivers of the ex situ conservation funding and PA effort. The techniques now applied at Way Kambas originate from baseline research at Cincinnati Zoo and AZA.

It is imperative that same effort be applied too to the Borneon Sumatran captive and in situ population. And lest any of you forget both the Bornean (25-50) and Sumatran Dicerorhinus (175-225) wild populations are under severe threat of extinction and will require much direct intervention and various applied scientific techniques and assisted technology in order to increase their numbers exponentially. This is on top of the current RPU efforts sponsorred by the captive community and international conservation NGO's which has stabilised in situ wild conservation efforts. Thus, now is the opportune moment to take the programme further. And it is not wise to wait for Suci to mature ..., if a capture effort is planned now it will probably not happen before 2012/13 as funding needs to be in place (f.i. Andalas transfer took 1-2 years of planning effort and diplomacy).

Mistakes in past management were in part avoidable, part unavoidable (but it is all in hindsight, so easy to downlist or deride), however we can and could not be complacent and it WAS basically a learning curve (both the demise of many US Sumatrans and the entire Sungai Dusun programme in Malaysia). What I do concur is that the scale of the ex situ effort outside range nations was somewhat disproportionate to the entire programme in situ range nations. But that equally IS just in hindsight. And finally (and also in hindsight) perhaps there also was a different style of leadership/research application of the US/AZA vs. the previous European handling of these programmes (as evidenced by the initial management by PL/JAF and its perhaps more realistic approach and design of the entire capture-breeding effort.

Someone who knows what they are talking about!

A couple of Points:

Initially the were more institutions involved in the program in range countries but again due to the steep learning curve you refer to many lost their animals and moved on. The original plan actual was for the majority of animals to be maintained in Indonesia and Malaysia (with SRT zoos each maintaining a pair).

At this stage there are thought to be no more than 17 wild harissoni and it’s been suggested in several meetings that from here on all animals would be managed as the same species though no decision has been made.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

Even if a place has excellent husbandry records does not mean they can get an infertile rhino to breed.

Secondly am well aware of where most of the current population where obtained.

And lastly am all for a couple more captured but until we can prove that we have at least a few more rhinos that are fertile and able to breed I don't see the point in bringing more in.

No the only way to get an infertile Rhinoceros to reproduce is with the use of the worlds most advanced reproductive biology and scientists (Most of which happen to be situated in the USA) and under very heavily controlled circumstances (not easy at SRS).

We know we have 3 fertile rhino at SRS, 2 fertile rhino at Cincy and 1 immature male at White Oak.

 

[phoenix]

No the only way to get an infertile Rhinoceros to reproduce is with the use of the worlds most advanced reproductive biology and scientists (Most of which happen to be situated in the USA) and under very heavily controlled circumstances (not easy at SRS).

you don't take the rhino out of the jungle. you take the scientists to the jungle.

i'm sick of hearing that all the expertise is in the US as if its a valid excuse for capturing tropical rhino and sending them to frozen america. the fact is that there is no good reason why all the expertise and facilities that are available to the west, cannot be applied to the facility in sumatra. it just lacks the will - the will of westerners who like the idea of "owning" some examples of one of the worlds rarest species.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

you don't take the rhino out of the jungle. you take the scientists to the jungle.

i'm sick of hearing that all the expertise is in the US as if its a valid excuse for capturing tropical rhino and sending them to frozen america. the fact is that there is no good reason why all the expertise and facilities that are available to the west, cannot be applied to the facility in sumatra. it just lacks the will - the will of westerners who like the idea of "owning" some examples of one of the worlds rarest species.

There IS a real spirit of cooperation between both regions. We are not talking nationalities, we are talking conservation which transcends all that. I could not care for an inch who, where or how is doing it as long as there is sound conservation rationale and ethic involved. Which there is.

 

[taun]

We know we have 3 fertile rhino at SRS, 2 fertile rhino at Cincy and 1 immature male at White Oak.

It still does not mean you will get them to breed. Surely thats why getting related pair to breed first is a good idea.

Plus it doesn't matter anyway someone in the US thread told us they will use A.I. on Suci and that there would be no new male moving to cincy.

 

[Pertinax]

Plus it doesn't matter anyway someone in the US thread told us they will use A.I. on Suci and that there would be no new male moving to cincy.

Cincinnati have successfully AI'd an Indian rhino(on more than one occassion now?) so no doubt this has encouraged them to believe they can succeed with Sumatran too. I don't know if it would really be any more difficult or not. Possibly Ipuh might still have a role to play if they need to introduce them to get precopulatory behaviour and ovarian stimulation before AI is actually undertaken.

Because of that possibility, KB's suggestion that Suci's father Ipuh might(I know it was only a 'might') now be better translocated back to Sumatra seems to be not such a good idea, UNLESS Cincinnati received a mature, unrelated male by exchange- Andalas shares the same genes so can achieve the same function breedingwise at Way Kambas. I think the elderly female 'Bina' must be a lost cause breeding wise but now Ratu is pregnant, the Andalas/Rosa combination should work fine too in due course.

But this is such a tiny captive population, it desperately needs some more 'problem' animals which can legitimately be added to this stock, i.e. from places where they are isolated or in extreme danger and could be brought into captivity in the same way as the two younger females were. To me captivity also represents safety, as I imagine few of the 150 or so remaining wild animals are secure or genuinely safe, wherever they are. Critics of that statement will quote the Sungai Dusun disaster but big advances have been made since then and its an even more critical situation now. I would rather see a larger captive population with reproductive potential which is also safe from poaching/logging -than wild rhinos that can be wiped out at any moment.


I also believe that with such a tiny wild population all told, they may have to be prepared to allow some degree of inbreeding among the captive rhinos in the future, as 'unrelated' animals simply won't keep coming available.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

you don't take the rhino out of the jungle. you take the scientists to the jungle.

i'm sick of hearing that all the expertise is in the US as if its a valid excuse for capturing tropical rhino and sending them to frozen america. the fact is that there is no good reason why all the expertise and facilities that are available to the west, cannot be applied to the facility in sumatra. it just lacks the will - the will of westerners who like the idea of "owning" some examples of one of the worlds rarest species.

Have you spent any time at all at SRS?

Sure it’s great they finally have a pregnancy. Yet you have to remember that once the secret to Sumatran Rhinoceros reproduction had been unlocked there were 1.1 viable animals in the US at the same time there were 2.4/2.5 viable animals in peninsular Malaysia, at least 1.2 at SRS and 1.1 at Sepliok. The only facility to have any success at all was Cincy with only 1.1 animals they had a 100% success rate.

You seem to forget that Port Lympne returned Torgamba the only Sumatran Rhinoceros in Europe to SRS for the good of the species, as did LA and Cincy with Andalas. Arguably two of the most selfless acts conducted by zoos.

Its certainly not case of owning the world rarest rhino, and saying that infers a complete ignorance of everyone who has worked on the project over the last decade. Teams of fertility experts regularly fly out to Indonesia taking time away from their families at great expense of the facilities funding the trips and have to endure environmental conditions, a lack of equipment and even power to run the equipment… yet they put up with it for the good of the species.

Like it or not the middle of the Rainforest is not an ideal scenario to be conducting fertility treatment and without the Americans there would be no hope for the species at all (the population continues to decline at an alarming rate).

 

[Dicerorhinus]

It still does not mean you will get them to breed. Surely thats why getting related pair to breed first is a good idea.

Plus it doesn't matter anyway someone in the US thread told us they will use A.I. on Suci and that there would be no new male moving to cincy.

Inbreeding is not an option at the moment (there are complicated reasons for this).

The current plan is to push ahead with A.I. but its no secret how difficult it will be and the chances of success are remote.

I wouldnt be so sure of that..

 

[MARK]

Have you spent any time at all at SRS?

Sure it’s great they finally have a pregnancy. Yet you have to remember that once the secret to Sumatran Rhinoceros reproduction had been unlocked there were 1.1 viable animals in the US at the same time there were 2.4/2.5 viable animals in peninsular Malaysia, at least 1.2 at SRS and 1.1 at Sepliok. The only facility to have any success at all was Cincy with only 1.1 animals they had a 100% success rate.

You seem to forget that Port Lympne returned Torgamba the only Sumatran Rhinoceros in Europe to SRS for the good of the species, as did LA and Cincy with Andalas. Arguably two of the most selfless acts conducted by zoos.

Its certainly not case of owning the world rarest rhino, and saying that infers a complete ignorance of everyone who has worked on the project over the last decade. Teams of fertility experts regularly fly out to Indonesia at great expense of the facilities funding the trips and have to endure environmental conditions, a lack of equipment and even power to run the equipment… yet they put up with it for the good of the species.

Like it or not the middle of the Rainforest is not an ideal scenario to be conducting fertility treatment and without the Americans there would be no hope for the species at all (the population continues to decline at an alarming rate).

While I agree to what you have stated in this post I do tead to lean towards inbreeding in the zoo at this point in time, A little inbreeding which "should work" is better than no breeding at all, I have stated on the forum before I am all for AI but with the Sumatran rhinos being so rare we need more numbers on the ground now even if they are inbred

 

[Dicerorhinus]

Cincinnati have successfully AI'd an Indian rhino(on more than one occassion now?) so no doubt this has encouraged them to believe they can succeed with Sumatran too. I don't know if it would really be any more difficult or not. Possibly Ipuh might still have a role to play if they need to introduce them to get precopulatory behaviour and ovarian stimulation before AI is actually undertaken.

Because of that possibility, KB's suggestion that Suci's father Ipuh might(I know it was only a 'might') now be better translocated back to Sumatra seems to be not such a good idea, UNLESS Cincinnati received a mature, unrelated male by exchange- Andalas shares the same genes so can achieve the same function breedingwise at Way Kambas. I think the elderly female 'Bina' must be a lost cause breeding wise but now Ratu is pregnant, the Andalas/Rosa combination should work fine too in due course.

But this is such a tiny captive population, it desperately needs some more 'problem' animals which can legitimately be added to this stock, i.e. from places where they are isolated or in extreme danger and could be brought into captivity in the same way as the two younger females were. To me captivity also represents safety, as I imagine few of the 150 or so remaining wild animals are secure or genuinely safe, wherever they are. Critics of that statement will quote the Sungai Dusun disaster but big advances have been made since then and its an even more critical situation now. I would rather see a larger captive population with reproductive potential which is also safe from poaching/logging -than wild rhinos that can be wiped out at any moment.


I also believe that with such a tiny wild population all told, they may have to be prepared to allow some degree of inbreeding among the captive rhinos in the future, as 'unrelated' animals simply won't keep coming available.

Pertinax,

Some good points, you are absolutely correct all areas that rhino occur are rife with poaching and illegal clearance. While the RPUs do a fantastic job (risking their lives daily) they are fighting a losing battle.

Unfortunately A.I. in Sumatrans will be far more complicated than it is with White or even Indian Rhino.

There is no need to allow any inbreeding for the foreseeable future.
There is a template in place that utilises SRS as a halfway house for wild caught animals that would be mated with captive animals (thus infusing the captive population with more founders) before they are re-released where they were captured (all of the National Parks in Sumatra that have rhino are thought to be well below carrying capacity so reintroductions shouldn’t displace animals).

The obvious problem here is habituation to humans, (I don’t know if you know the circumstances for Rosa being translocated to SRS) something unfortunately the species is very prone to.
This plan would also require the proposed expansion of SRS to move forward.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

While I agree to what you have stated in this post I do tead to lean towards inbreeding in the zoo at this point in time, A little inbreeding which "should work" is better than no breeding at all, I have stated on the forum before I am all for AI but with the Sumatran rhinos being so rare we need more numbers on the ground now even if they are inbred

As with everything its far more complicated than it seems. While I too would prefer natural breeding mastering A.I may be prove crucial to the species survival in the future.

 

[MARK]

As with everything its far more complicated than it seems. While I too would prefer natural breeding mastering A.I may be prove crucial to the species survival in the future.

I feel you may of missed my point here, I have NO problem with them using AI over natural breeding, BUT we need to breed more numbers FIRST and then risk AI working OR nor working with this species but numbers first.

I have had a very long interest with the breeding of Sumatran rhinos visiting (off exhibit) the first UK pair even before they went on public exhibit, So I really want to see the best done for them before all is lost.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

I feel you may of missed my point here, I have NO problem with them using AI over natural breeding, BUT we need to breed more numbers FIRST and then risk AI working OR nor working with this species but numbers first.

I have had a very long interest with the breeding of Sumatran rhinos visiting (off exhibit) the first UK pair even before they went on public exhibit, So I really want to see the best done for them before all is lost.

Haha no I didn’t miss your point I just wasn't very clear.

Inbreeding will be avoided for as long as possible. There are numerous reasons why that decision has been made some of which make more sense than others

Im glad you were taken behind the scenes those people who are fortunate enough to get close to this charismatic species never forget it!

 

[MARK]

Haha no I didn’t miss your point I just wasn't very clear.

Inbreeding will be avoided for as long as possible. There are numerous reasons why that decision has been made some of which make more sense than others

Im glad you were taken behind the scenes those people who are fortunate enough to get close to this charismatic species never forget it!

OK I am so glad you did not miss my point .

So "please do tell" the reasons WHY inbreeding at this stage is "not an option" when importing animals from the wild is almost impossible and before you say "AI" consider TIME is running out FAST and we need as many as possible bred NOW, AI can come later after numbers look somewhat better than they do at this time, Let them perfect the AI on the Indian rhinos first (which they need to do) before they use up to much valuable time this species doe's not have and which could well be waste at this stage

 

[Dicerorhinus]

OK I am so glad you did not miss my point .

So "please do tell" the reasons WHY inbreeding at this stage is "not an option" when importing animals from the wild is almost impossible and before you say "AI" consider TIME is running out FAST and we need as many as possible bred NOW, AI can come later after numbers look somewhat better than they do at this time, Let them perfect the AI on the Indian rhinos first (which they need to do) before they use up to much valuable time this species doe's not have and which could well be waste at this stage

No I understand you think increasing numbers is the priority even if the only way to do so is pair father and daughter.

The reproduction cycle is so slow, is having the single additional highly inbred calf (depression = exponential increase in the liklihood of infant mortality, other potential health problems and sterility that accompamy it) from this pairing every 3 years worth it ?

What I am saying is that there are reasons (one or two are pretty obvious) for the time being at least it is just not an option. I hate to pull a "zoogiraffe" but Suci will not be paired with Ipu.

This is why this issue of capturing some of the known and rumoured isolated animals persists.

 

[MARK]

No I understand you think breeding related animals is preferable to AI which is unlikely to work.

What I am saying is that there are reasons (one or two are pretty obvious) for the time being at least it is just not an option. I hate to pull a "zoogiraffe" but Suci will not be paired with Ipu.

This is why this issue of capturing some of the known and rumoured isolated animals persists.

Personally given the choice between inbreeding and A.I well its a tough call I can say that depression and reproductive issues that go hand in hand with it could render any young produced useless.

Ok I am clear about what you are saying, But at this stage there has been NO inbreeding that I know of, I understand (as a long time dog and reptile/fish breeder) what inbreeding can do to depression and some other problems if to much of it is used BUT this is not the case here and now, I know with the Indian rhinos at the San Deigo Wild Animal Park inbreeding took place in the early days and numbers built up quicky which is what we want with the Sumatran species, in later years they imported several new males from India with unrelated bloodlines so I feel this is the best option under the conditions we have here and now.