yes i agree. i think zoos should pay animal dealers to go to sumatra and catch rhino from the wild. these can that be brought to the US and placed in zoos to start a captive breeding program.
Sumatran rhino............tick!
- Thread starter patrick
- Start date
yes i agree. i think zoos should pay animal dealers to go to sumatra and catch rhino from the wild. these can that be brought to the US and placed in zoos to start a captive breeding program.
The only unrelated male is Torgamba, who hasn't been able to get a female pregnant despite many matings- so he is definately suspect.
After what happened at the other rhino 'breeding 'centre at Sungai Dusun where all the rhinos died from a virus, I think it might be a case of 'not having too many eggs in one basket', and therefore safer for Suci to stay where she was born. Especially as there is still no evidence(yet) that they can breed them at Way Kambas. Cincinnati have the best expertise now- all they need(soon) is a new breeding male rhino for the two females they have. I was only suggesting mating father(Ipuh) to daughter(Suci) in the first instance if no other male is available, and somehow a new male needs to be aquired, perhaps in a form of exchange for Emi's third calf(male)- he isn't needed in the US. The old Cincinnati male 'Ipuh' is likely to die well before the two females as he's a much older animal so they will probably need a new male anyway if they are continue breeding them.
suspect, absolutely, but possibly the most important animal to be bred at the moment.
see if torgamba doesn't produce an offspring, there goes the possibility of creating a second generation of rhino that are not directly descended from the cincinnati pair. i think the creation of a different lineage is vitally important to get this breeding program off to a healthy start.
in suci's case, he is the only male alive in captivity who is not related to her. so if we discount the idea of her breeding with her brother or father, there are really only two options;
a) move suci to indonesia
b) move torgamba to the US
now, since torgamba really does have a low sperm count, then its probably time they looked at assisted reproduction techniques and if they are going to try that, they may as well prioritise breeding him with one of the other females at way kambas to create that different lineage i mentioned earlier. by all means they should attempt to breed him with suci, its her only unrelated mate, but more importantly is breeding him to one of the other females.
if we look at option b), then he will only be able to breed emi and suci, if we look at option a) then he can breed suci and a yet-to breed female.
mating him only to ciny lineages mixes the lines prematurely. thats why i think its best he stays in the indonesia and suci moves there.
in any event i guess its already time they started looking at assisted reproduction techniques, such as AI, seamen harvesting from wild animals and eventually cloning technologies since the issue of inbreeding
has already risen its ugly head after only one successful pairing...
waiting around for a wild animal to turn up would be foolish. and i wouldn't condone wild capture until all current captive lineages are represented and breeding additional pairs is proven a possibility. but i agree likewise, failing to even inbreed would be foolish since at the very least it buys a bit of time. but it should always be option "b"...
see if torgamba doesn't produce an offspring, there goes the possibility of creating a second generation of rhino that are not directly descended from the cincinnati pair. i think the creation of a different lineage is vitally important to get this breeding program off to a healthy start.
in suci's case, he is the only male alive in captivity who is not related to her. so if we discount the idea of her breeding with her brother or father, there are really only two options;
a) move suci to indonesia
b) move torgamba to the US
now, since torgamba really does have a low sperm count, then its probably time they looked at assisted reproduction techniques and if they are going to try that, they may as well prioritise breeding him with one of the other females at way kambas to create that different lineage i mentioned earlier. by all means they should attempt to breed him with suci, its her only unrelated mate, but more importantly is breeding him to one of the other females.
if we look at option b), then he will only be able to breed emi and suci, if we look at option a) then he can breed suci and a yet-to breed female.
mating him only to ciny lineages mixes the lines prematurely. thats why i think its best he stays in the indonesia and suci moves there.
in any event i guess its already time they started looking at assisted reproduction techniques, such as AI, seamen harvesting from wild animals and eventually cloning technologies since the issue of inbreeding
has already risen its ugly head after only one successful pairing...
waiting around for a wild animal to turn up would be foolish. and i wouldn't condone wild capture until all current captive lineages are represented and breeding additional pairs is proven a possibility. but i agree likewise, failing to even inbreed would be foolish since at the very least it buys a bit of time. but it should always be option "b"...
As a conservation biology major, I whole heartedly agree that an attempt to preserve a species in the wild before a captive breeding program is initiated is the most important thing. But the Indonesian and to a lesser extent the Malaysian governments have proven themselves shaky in the conservation arena. If we wait until the Sumatran becomes as geographically restrained as the Javan, we will not have a chance to start a captive breeding program. It is best to master the art of sumatran rhino reproduction while the number in the wild allows fallback options. If you look at the Javan, the number is so low that most conservationists would not risk even moving one individual into a captive setting. Cincinnati has proven itself and since reproduction in the wild is shaky at best, it would be wise to move a starter population of around 20 animals into a captive population, breed them, and relocate them back to Sumatra, Borneo, and Malaya. If not to breed, the rhinos would surely draw much attention to the plight of their wild kin and as such greater international pressure on the nations with wild sumatrans would be increased. If one looked at the result of the Masoala exhibit at Zoo Zurich, the attention drawn to the Masoala Ecosystem was worth the risk.
are you forgetting that this has already been attempted and failed miserably?
zoos captured many sumatran rhino that were in habitats "doomed" for clearfelling and moved them to zoos in the UK and America. of all the animals moved only a four survived. rapunzel, who never bred, those at cincinnati and torgamba who was repatriated back to indonesia from england after the zoo he was in wisely accepted they had failed at even keeping their rhino alive let alone propagating them...
so the question is. where did zoos go wrong and who says anything has changed?
well for starters, you don't scatter the few captive members of a critically endangered species on public display in a bunch of temperate zoos all over the northern hemisphere. thats showing a complete lack of respect for their value and the contribution they can make for their species survival.
secondly, i love that the death of all the rhino in malaysia is constantly touted as a reason why the US is better equipped to keep them.
at a guess id' say the malaysian/western tally for premature death of captive sumatran rhino is probably closer to equal.
thridly, if the east really isn't as good at basic husbandry than the west - then teach them. because way kambas has plenty of advantages over an american zoo.
lastly, "the don't put all your eggs in one basket" attitude is a wise one, though i think when it comes to as dire a situation as it is with the sumatran rhino, the advantages of a consolidated outweigh the risks.
and example is incompatible pairings. you may have two animals that would have otherwise bred kept at two different zoos, just for the sake of public display, which has zero priority here. neither animal may be interested in their mate, but had the entire population been together, alternative pairings can be tried, immediately.
there's just too much stuffing around when you have numerous zoos involved. everyone has their own agenda and nothing gets done quick enough.
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
The reason it failed may come down to a single facet...
We've talked about this before... Many animals were believed to impossible to keep alive for more than a few years let alone breed, gorillas come to mind... After gorillas had been kept in captivity for a significant amount of time, in significant enough numbers exhibit design and husbandry began to be detailed to that species and the life expectancy eventually exceeded the wild one (partly due in advances in zoo medicine and drugs) and breeding became commonplace... They did this through trial and error, i.e. some bright sparks figured out that public feeding caused illness as did humans throwing rubbish and spitting into enclosures so public feeding was prohibited and many zoos placed glass between their great apes (primates) and the their public... Diet was improved (I have seen a photo of a Zoo Director! feeding their zoo's gorillas chocolate, which was a daily occurence at this zoo in 1940s) this was done largely by trial and error; one zoo tried something that worked and adopted or told other zoos about it, etc...
How does this apply to Sumatran Rhinos..? An example I can think of was Lasai the male Indian Rhino at SDZ (I believe Indian Rhinos are close to Sumatrans taxinomically?) was kept with a female for 10 years and didn't even appear to be interested in breeding... He was switched to SDWAP and kept in a 40+ acre enclosure with something like 8+ females and he would eventually sire over 60 calves, including some with the female he had originally been kept with at the SDZ..!
It could be that all these males need is some selection and wide open spaces but if they do this raises a few questions:
1). Is it worth taking that many animals out of the wild to establish a breeding program..?
2). If a male requires a large selection of females to breed, how quickly will his genes become over represented..?
The only way a breeding program could and would work I believe is if three open range type zoos in the same country say SDWAP, Miami Metro Zoo and NC Zoo (I'm thinking climate and reputation here) built a modern rhino house and developed say 10 acres of semi wooded area, split into an 80% - 20%, 80% main exhibit, 20% male yard and imported 2 males and 4 females each, the males were rotated between the male yard and being out with the females... Even then I can think of a few problems:
1). It is a small founding number, 20 pairs (if I remember correctly is the minimum) and 50 breeding pairs to avoid inbreeding (if I again remember correctly, with a very specific SSP)... So presumably ongoing reintroduction into the wild and blood lines taken from the wild would be a neccesity...
2). The other issues I mentioned earlier, such as diet and the other small species specific issues would still need to be ironed out...
3). The animals would be hard to see in the kind of exhibit I described earlier (not really encouraging zoos to build it, the answer to this of course is for the main group to be off exhibit and a glass window into the male area for viewing) and in fact the public laughing, yelling and screaming would surely encourage the rhino to the back of their exhbits and not to breed...
It seems like the best option is in-situ to me...
We've talked about this before... Many animals were believed to impossible to keep alive for more than a few years let alone breed, gorillas come to mind... After gorillas had been kept in captivity for a significant amount of time, in significant enough numbers exhibit design and husbandry began to be detailed to that species and the life expectancy eventually exceeded the wild one (partly due in advances in zoo medicine and drugs) and breeding became commonplace... They did this through trial and error, i.e. some bright sparks figured out that public feeding caused illness as did humans throwing rubbish and spitting into enclosures so public feeding was prohibited and many zoos placed glass between their great apes (primates) and the their public... Diet was improved (I have seen a photo of a Zoo Director! feeding their zoo's gorillas chocolate, which was a daily occurence at this zoo in 1940s) this was done largely by trial and error; one zoo tried something that worked and adopted or told other zoos about it, etc...
How does this apply to Sumatran Rhinos..? An example I can think of was Lasai the male Indian Rhino at SDZ (I believe Indian Rhinos are close to Sumatrans taxinomically?) was kept with a female for 10 years and didn't even appear to be interested in breeding... He was switched to SDWAP and kept in a 40+ acre enclosure with something like 8+ females and he would eventually sire over 60 calves, including some with the female he had originally been kept with at the SDZ..!
It could be that all these males need is some selection and wide open spaces but if they do this raises a few questions:
1). Is it worth taking that many animals out of the wild to establish a breeding program..?
2). If a male requires a large selection of females to breed, how quickly will his genes become over represented..?
The only way a breeding program could and would work I believe is if three open range type zoos in the same country say SDWAP, Miami Metro Zoo and NC Zoo (I'm thinking climate and reputation here) built a modern rhino house and developed say 10 acres of semi wooded area, split into an 80% - 20%, 80% main exhibit, 20% male yard and imported 2 males and 4 females each, the males were rotated between the male yard and being out with the females... Even then I can think of a few problems:
1). It is a small founding number, 20 pairs (if I remember correctly is the minimum) and 50 breeding pairs to avoid inbreeding (if I again remember correctly, with a very specific SSP)... So presumably ongoing reintroduction into the wild and blood lines taken from the wild would be a neccesity...
2). The other issues I mentioned earlier, such as diet and the other small species specific issues would still need to be ironed out...
3). The animals would be hard to see in the kind of exhibit I described earlier (not really encouraging zoos to build it, the answer to this of course is for the main group to be off exhibit and a glass window into the male area for viewing) and in fact the public laughing, yelling and screaming would surely encourage the rhino to the back of their exhbits and not to breed...
It seems like the best option is in-situ to me...
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and really, we don't have the rhino to sacrifice to "ironing-out" problems in zoos.
hence why if your going to keep them in captivity, and we should, where better than a place that minimises potential problems by providing both a natural habitat, climate and an availability of natural fodder?
put the two together - US experience and Indonesian location and you have the best chance at success..
hence why if your going to keep them in captivity, and we should, where better than a place that minimises potential problems by providing both a natural habitat, climate and an availability of natural fodder?
put the two together - US experience and Indonesian location and you have the best chance at success..
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
Maybe if, as you say, the US - British experience gained from the failed breeding program was put to use in breeding centres locally and numbers increased, a few pairs could go to say Singapore and KL zoos were the husbandry and other miscellaneous issues could be worked out before reintroduction to western zoos to have another crack in well designed exhibits with species specific needs catered for..?
San Diego is notorious for importing few animals and breeding them continuously regardless of genetics. Some of these animals are the only founding genes for the population (ie. Mishmi Takin, Harpy Eagle). Other species created over-representation within the captive population (ie White Rhino, Indian rhino, Okapi). They are getting better about cooperating with captive programs, but it is easier to create the damage than fix it.
And remember this species is reproductively fragile. The smallest thing can shut down a female's system or cause her to loose the pregnancy (Emi's problem).
I believe that Cincinnati wants to keep their rhinos to maintain the US herd. There will be other "rescue" rhinos that will show up. I didnt quite think that it was some kind of coincidence when that last two showed up a few years ago, just after the Sungai Dusun tragedy. Cincinnati is doing a lot to support the Asian facilites - funding, medical, teaching, etc. It wasnt until Andalas was born that these places took Cincinnati serious.
The captive program has for the most part failed due to bad nutrition, old individuals, and poor initial planning. Everyone was so excited to receive a pair of Sumatrans that these animals were spread out thinly. As animals were captured they were sent to seperate facilities, so each would have 1.1. The AZA had initially 3 years, with a later extension, to capture rhinos for the program. At first there were just females, that sat at US zoos waiting for males to arrive. When the few males finally arrived, the females either died off or shut down reproducivly. In the end there were 1.2 rhinos at three different zoos in the US and they were all sent to Cincinnati in a last ditch effort to breed these animals.
As for assited reproductive techniques, the Sumatran Rhinos will become extinct before this can be perfected. That is why Cincinnati is collecting material and working with other rhino species first, just in case. Shoot - it took them nearly a decade to make Emi sustain a pregnancy. Andalas was her fourth or fifth pregnancy, the others were lost mid-term.
And remember this species is reproductively fragile. The smallest thing can shut down a female's system or cause her to loose the pregnancy (Emi's problem).
I believe that Cincinnati wants to keep their rhinos to maintain the US herd. There will be other "rescue" rhinos that will show up. I didnt quite think that it was some kind of coincidence when that last two showed up a few years ago, just after the Sungai Dusun tragedy. Cincinnati is doing a lot to support the Asian facilites - funding, medical, teaching, etc. It wasnt until Andalas was born that these places took Cincinnati serious.
The captive program has for the most part failed due to bad nutrition, old individuals, and poor initial planning. Everyone was so excited to receive a pair of Sumatrans that these animals were spread out thinly. As animals were captured they were sent to seperate facilities, so each would have 1.1. The AZA had initially 3 years, with a later extension, to capture rhinos for the program. At first there were just females, that sat at US zoos waiting for males to arrive. When the few males finally arrived, the females either died off or shut down reproducivly. In the end there were 1.2 rhinos at three different zoos in the US and they were all sent to Cincinnati in a last ditch effort to breed these animals.
As for assited reproductive techniques, the Sumatran Rhinos will become extinct before this can be perfected. That is why Cincinnati is collecting material and working with other rhino species first, just in case. Shoot - it took them nearly a decade to make Emi sustain a pregnancy. Andalas was her fourth or fifth pregnancy, the others were lost mid-term.
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
Its interesting to get the "inside goss" so to speak thanks Okapikpr..!
I wasn't aware of this, I mean I knew they had done it but I assumed it was because others didn't have the space or inclination to import certain species... Does it apply to their collection in their frozen zoo..? Are they collecting samples from severely inbreed animals..?
I wasn't aware of this, I mean I knew they had done it but I assumed it was because others didn't have the space or inclination to import certain species... Does it apply to their collection in their frozen zoo..? Are they collecting samples from severely inbreed animals..?
I'm not sure about collecting material from inbred animals, but in our field we are very oppurtunistic when it comes to collecting material...we need to practice on something. Why not the "not as good" material?
I also have copies of some of the original sumatran rhino documents from the 1980s if anyone has any questions.
I also have copies of some of the original sumatran rhino documents from the 1980s if anyone has any questions.
no.
id' rather they stay in indonesian purpose built breeding centers and after a build up in population they are released into the wild direct from there.
i know. only i don't think what is best is to get them into western zoos. and i don't think a zoo can offer the most meaningful program as its priorities are skewed in favour of display. hardly the wisest move for a species on knifes edge...
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
I agree as demonstrated above but if numbers were to become stable and higher in the wild I would love to be able to travel to Aus or the US and see them... Are you suggesting they should never leave the Asian wilds under any circumstances..?
why not go to malaysia or indonesia instead? at least then your supporting eco-tourism and in return that encourages the government to preserve wild places. thats what i did (and its a lot closer than america)
NZ Jeremy;44969Are you suggesting they should never leave the Asian wilds under any circumstances..?[/QUOTE said:
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
Where have I been trying to argue for it to happen now..?
In response:
a) they're not "safe" in any human hands, or from them for that matter, whether its in a western zoo, an asian breeding centre or the wild...
b) this is a zoo fansite, they'd be something wrong if the members here didn't want to see one of the most spectacular animals in the world in a zoo...
not so much as you are trying to test the parameters of my beliefs on the subject. which i have no problem with. i just wanted it to be clear on my part. that i was aware thats what you were doing.
how very poignant of you! but okay, okay....
hmmm... now that comment, if its a accurate representation of the members on this forum, probably illustrates best my fundamental differences of opinion with the majority of you.
see, i love the zoo. but its a mere and poor consolation for what i really love doing - which is travelling to exotic locations to look for wildlife in the wild. and without doubt the conservation of those wild places means more to me that any zoo does.
now don't get me wrong, zoos have a right to exist, and i want them to - provided they generate a momentum to preserve these places. but i'm not so selfish that i want my zoo to have elephants just because i want my zoo to be the best in the world. my zoo doesn't have enough room for elephants...
i'm a zoofan....... i'm just not overestimating their abilities to justify my agenda to see them in one. i'm happy if sumatran rhino just survive, and i'll happily visit indonesia to see one.
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the above, I think we both played devils advocate so much there we didn't know what each of us thought...
I am simply saying it is best to "iron out" problems before the population declines to the level of the javans. I though from a conservation standpoint want as many weapons at our disposal to aid in the preservation of this species. Yes other captive breeding programs have failed, but the string of births at cincinnati, have shown they have "ironed out" the problems. This needs to be explored as a viable option. As for putting them in a temperate climate, that is where those with expendable income to splurge on the luxury of conservation typically dwell. But as from my own experiences most Westerners are clueless about almost every other species we share the earth with. I am not saying the rhinos should be in every zoo collection, but breeding programs in well funded zoos i.e. Bronx, Cincinnati, Omaha, LA, with multiple enclosures in the same facility for the species would be a major assist.