ZSL London Zoo Sumatran tiger Melati killed by Asim

FunkyGibbon said:
I agree that maintaining diversity is the most important aim. That's actually a part of my point, not separate from it. Whether deliberately or not, zoos would naturally tend to breed from animals which are easier to breed from, thus applying a form of artificial selection to the captive population. As I understand it by having the studbook manager dictate matches this pressure is resisted (although not totally I'm sure).

In the current paradigm one of the key raisons-d'etre of zoos is to act is insurance populations in case a species becomes extinct in the wild, or close to it*. That is, after all, why ZSL holds Sumatran tigers not zoomix ones. Therefore one eye must be kept on the possibility of future reintroductions. It's hard to imagine anything more destructive to that aim than deliberately breeding aggresive traits out of an apex predator.

*Of course, one can argue that this is neither realistic nor desireable. I have some sympathy to that viewpoint even if it isn't my own. Nonetheless zoos tell the public they are 'arks' and so they must act like it.
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No, that’s fair enough. You also make a good point. Who’s not to say future reintroductions won’t be possible.

As for inheritance of personality, I’ve seen many cases where an aggressive male has fathered docile sons; or two siblings within a litter have had polar opposite personalities.

I also agree on zoos unintentionally selecting for desirable captive traits. When a tigress was recommended to be transferred from Hamilton to Auckland Zoo, a choice of two littermates was available. Hamilton reccomended the more confident sister, who they thought would handle the situation better than her shy sister. Similarly, when the Taronga Zoo were to be receiving a young tigress from Melbourne Zoo in the 1990s, they chose to pair her with a male 5 years older, rather than his brother who was closer in age. The older brother was a docile tiger, who was firmly put in place by the young tigress; the younger brother they exported killed his first mate (the only fatality to date in the region). One can’t help but speculate they kept the older brother because he was easy to work with, and because they thought he’d be unproblematic to introduce to a female.
 
Sadly being in the industry with similar experiences I can assure you that fire extinguishers rarely make any difference at all. If a large cat wants to kill another one it is quick and there's not much you can do to stop it. Will Travers has nothing valuable to add to this.

Also separating pairs after they have bred is very common practice regardless of how well bonded they are. The priority in these EEP programs is the genetic health and sustainability of these populations into the future.
 
Del250 said:
So why were they introduced directly to each other after only 10 days? Some sources I have read suggest introductions often take a lot longer than that. Were there really any positive signs that they were getting on through their respective sides of the enclosure? Were the staff perhaps under pressure to introduce the animals quickly so the exhibit could get ready for the busier half term period in just over a week’s time?
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The announcement states that 'obvious positive signs' were observed though I'm not sure what they were- the form of greeting known as 'chuffing' (= 'prusten') perhaps? I would also like to know if Melati was in oestrus as that would be the safest time for introduction to a strange male rather than outside of it. I also think after ten days the male would still be feeling very insecure and not fully settled in his new home and therefore likely to be far more volatile to the presence of another tiger.

I know for a fact that in the case of the gorilla Kesho and the loss of the unrelated baby, that there was pressure from management to go ahead with the introduction, so the situation may have been similar here too. We just don't know the politics involved.
 
Pertinax said:
I would be interested to know if Melati was in oestrus- or not, when they were put together. There does not seem to be that information.
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Melati was temporarily separated by Jae around the second week in January, with signage saying she was in season and they didn't want them to bred, so the timing suggests she was.

As others have said, ZSL could of waited another month or 10 months and the result been the same, but one thing is guaranteed if they did give it another month then at least Asim would've developed more of a relationship with keepers and been more settled to a point where the recall of making lots of noise to separate them may of been more successful as he would of felt he had somewhere to run too where he felt safe.
 
Del250 said:
Why was the very successful pairing of Melati and Jae Jae broken up after nearly 6 years together? They had produced 7 cubs and Melati was now 10 years old. Yes, their offspring was over represented in the gene pool but would they have had many more cubs had they been left together?.
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5 successful cubs, but even if both went onto have just 1 more litter with another mates, those would be more valuable than another litter from Melati and Jae would have been.

Del250 said:
Although once the two animals were in conflict with each other it was probably very difficult to successfully separate them were the most effective procedures followed by the staff when the incident happened? Will Travers on Radio 4 suggested that the most effective way at separating tigers in this situation was a fire extinguisher. Was this tried?.
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Certainly fire extinguishers are commonly used, from the introductions with Jae back in late 2012, you would often see fire extinguishers in the bushes dotted around the old tiger enclosure if you visited early in the morning with "tiger emergency" written on them.
 
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the zoo have posted thanks for tributes message on facebook now, along with this link which may have already been posted

Melati

Again, it does mention the good signs such as chuffing and the use of hoses, but many people seem to be missing that and just attack ZSL instead.
 
Tau said:
Sadly being in the industry with similar experiences I can assure you that fire extinguishers rarely make any difference at all. If a large cat wants to kill another one it is quick and there's not much you can do to stop it. Will Travers has nothing valuable to add to this
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I did wonder when Will Travers would put his two-pennies worth in, especially when those with a long memory will know the long, colourful relationship the Travers have with ZSL.
 
Panthera1981 said:
I did wonder when Will Travers would put his two-pennies worth in, especially when those with a long memory will know the long, colourful relationship the Travers have with ZSL.
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The 'orrible Will Travers did this on Radio 4 yesterday.
It strikes me there are a lot of armchair warriors on here, with no practical experience of animal husbandry.....
 
FBBird said:
The 'orrible Will Travers did this on Radio 4 yesterday.
It strikes me there are a lot of armchair warriors on here, with no practical experience of animal husbandry.....
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“Relationship” was probably the wrong word to use, “Vendetta” would probably be more appropriate!
 
Buldeo said:
The New York Times has picked it up as well.

This incident does remind of something that's be on my mind for a while: big cat introduction rooms need some sort of panic button. I was watching the National Zoo's teevee show a while back and they were introducing their tigers; staff were standing by for emergencies, but the things they had seemed so insubstantial.

My idea was to have a panic button installed attached to high powered fire-like hoses. Perhaps out of the ceiling like a rain shower. It might not be perfect, but it seems like a better option than what I witnessed.
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That's actually not a bad idea. I'm not saying noises would be ineffective but basically if two tigers are engaged in a fight, they're gonna focus on what they perceive is the biggest threat in the room (each other) and ignore almost all auditory distractions. However something phyisical like a blast of water (or a fire extinguisher) aimed at their face would disorient them.

I udnerstand the introduction occured in one of the paddocks (metres from the fence line), which would have rendered fire extignuishers useless. I can't help but feel they would have been better doing the introduction in a more confined space (with exits/escape routes for both cats). This would allow the keepers more chance to intervene. I saw this done effectively at Taronga with two tigers introduced in a cage block, the keepers were only a couple of metres away and were able to quickly separate the female when she chose to use an escape route after the male got aggressive. Auckland Zoo has a similar design to their cages, which allowed a similar intro. Of course, this is where the tiger's relationship with the keepers is important. Having keepers in close proximity to Asim (who'd known them for 10 days) would have likely increased his stress (and therefore potential to act aggresively).
 
With regards escape routes, I’m not sure whether the exhibit is restricted by the tiger’s indoor quarters possibly being a listed building (others on the forums would have a better idea) so the use of confined spaces could have been hampered during exhibit design.
 
The following video shows how ineffective water hoses are in stopping a lion attack. It features a lion tamer being attacked
 
Ned said:
The following video shows how ineffective water hoses are in stopping a lion attack. It features a lion tamer being attacked
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Good grief! I know it’s a little off topic, but that’s an extraordinary film. Is this quite a well known incident? Any idea what the outcome was?
 
While there have been various comments on this thread, the circus video shows explicitly why fire extinguishers and a small 'introduction' area do not necessarily equate to an ease of separation between two individuals (what ever the species). The incident can be quick with little warning. Obviously the body language between the two tigers at ZSL was not obvious enough for keepers to see in advance of what was to happen. I still stand by my assertion that 10 days is not long enough for an introduction of big cats. What was the rush? Keepers need time to get know the nuances of a new individual, and in this case a male tiger who had previous socialisation problems. And I agree the female's oestrus cycle would be an important indicator. I once worked with a female tiger who hated the keepers when she arrived, and turned into a complete pussy cat when she came into season.
 
I haven't opened the link on my facebook because it is the daily mail, but apparently a new female is being sought and Asim will be staying.
 
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