ZSL London Zoo Sumatran tigers at ZSL

johnstoni

johnstoni

Well-Known Member
I wondered if anybody knows about the history of this species at ZSL? I first saw the collection in the early 1980's, I think at the time they had 3 adult sumatrans in the enclosure they still keep them in today. Were these animals introduced when the Lion Terraces opened? And am I right in thinking that London has only ever bred one sumatran cub (which it hand raised) in the whole history of the Lion Terraces.

Would anybody know what happened to this cub, and is the current male the same animal that fathered it? I'm pretty sure that animal was called 'martin', but the zoo may have changed his name. The cub was called 'Harry' and was reared alongside a Japanese Akita puppy.

thanks!
 
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I do know that the sole cub was named Hari, and he ended up at South Lakes Wild Animal Park. He's moved around a few times since though due to not breeding, I'd imagine because he prefers people to tigers! I think he briefly went to Twycross, but as they decided to phase out tigers in favour of keeping the Amur Leopards.

I think Hari spent some time at David Gill's other collection in Australia as well, but have no idea where he is now. I'd like to - he is/was a lovely tiger, and easily recognisable as his mother had bitten off part of his tail when he was a newborn cub, hence him being hand-reared!

I think it's fair to say that London's record of breeding tigers is absolutely appalling though - hopefully change is afoot for the species at the zoo.
 
Sounds like there could have been more in that litter, and that he may have been the only survivor? (I speculate I realise).

It's interesting that visitors are asked to pay a voluntary donation towards field conservation for tigers when they buy their ticket. This is fantastic as it does not stipulate specifically tiger conservation in Sumatra alone (see IOW zoo thread) but if I was more cynical I'd say it's no coincidence that arguably the species with the most pressing welfare issue at the zoo is also the subject of the voluntary donation scheme right now. I just mean, if its accidental genuis which it probably is then sure, but with the current two animals on site being such a bad example for conservation it would kind of make sense to remind people of the wider conservation work they are doing....
 
In the early 90`s a male was sent to them from Thrigby Hall to mate with the female their at the time i think they had at least 1 cub from them then.
 
So maybe this was 'martin', either he was born early on at thrigby or he was one of the 2 original cubs they (thrigby) recieved in about 1988. I first saw thrigby around this time, they were still building the tiger enclosure, and they had two (weaned) cubs in what looked like a quarantine cage where the work was being done. Do you know if this transfer to London was a loan or permanent, and if so, what happened to him after he went to London, did he get renamed or is the current male from somewhere else?
 
johnstoni said:
So maybe this was 'martin', either he was born early on at thrigby or he was one of the 2 original cubs they (thrigby) recieved in about 1988. I first saw thrigby around this time, they were still building the tiger enclosure, and they had two (weaned) cubs in what looked like a quarantine cage where the work was being done. Do you know if this transfer to London was a loan or permanent, and if so, what happened to him after he went to London, did he get renamed or is the current male from somewhere else?
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I think it was a loan deal and he returmed to Thrigby not sure but will try to find out.
 
Sand Cat said:
I do know that the sole cub was named Hari, and he ended up at South Lakes Wild Animal Park. I think he briefly went to Twycross, but as they decided to phase out tigers in favour of keeping the Amur Leopards.

I think Hari spent some time at David Gill's other collection in Australia as well, but have no idea where he is now. I'd like to - he is/was a lovely tiger, and easily recognisable as his mother had bitten off part of his tail when he was a newborn cub, hence him being hand-reared!
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Hari had a very short tail, just a few inches left.. Never saw him at Twycross though- their Sumatrans were two sibling males I think- not saying he didn't go there but surprised I never saw him...
 
London Zoo has kept pure sumatran tigers for decades, i have a guidebook from the 1950s with photos and good descriptions of this species. dont ask me how a guidebook for london zoo nearly 5 decades ago ended up in a municipal library book sale.
more recent news, in 2005 the female was AI. but nothing has come of it. for the life of me i cannot understand why london zoo cant breed this species, as they (tigers) breed in far worse conditions. its a shame because London's animals need greater genetic representation.
 
I really think it's one of the worst enlcosures for this subspecies. It may look fairly modern, and have a large pool and suitable planting, but they can get neither privacy nor high vantage points in the exhibit, and the enclosure has no 'back', with busy public areas on most sides, even if one is not a viewing area. The enclosure is in the centre of the zoo, by a catering outlet. The wire slopes in on the animals at the perimeter at 30-40 degrees in some places. Logs have been placed along boundaries to deter pacing, and the whole design of the lion terraces breaks up the wire boundary with concrete walls that hang the mesh and run into the exhibits by 2 metres or so. Depending on your view on pacing and stereotyped behaviour, if a cat wishes to engage in this behaviour, especially in anticipation of being fed, is it better to allow it to or physically prevent it? The tigers at London, when they do pace, consequently have stretches of 3-6 metres in which they can patrol the boundary in such a way. The female is right now restricted to one of the old leopard cages, where I saw her constantly pacing a 2 metre section of wire. There is no facility for separating the male when the female is pregnant unless he is moved to one of the old leopard enclosures (as the female has now).

For its relatively compact size, London gets a high volume of visitors, and one of the most photographed animals are the tigers, through the big window at the top of the exhibit. This is definitely not an animal at london that you need to take some time to locate.
 
glyn said:
London Zoo has kept pure sumatran tigers for decades, i have a guidebook from the 1950s with photos and good descriptions of this species.
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While London may have had Sumatran tigers in the past there were definately none there in the late 1960's/early 1970's. At that time the old 'Lion House' cages contained one pair of Indian tigers plus another Indian or crossbred male kept separately. I don't think Sumatrans reappeared until the existing Cat Terraces were constructed.

Whipsnade may have had Sumatran tigers during this stage though...
 
johnstoni said:
I. The female is right now restricted to one of the old leopard cages, where I saw her constantly pacing a 2 metre section of wire. There is no facility for separating the male when the female is pregnant unless he is moved to one of the old leopard enclosures (as the female has now).
.
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Does this mean that the female is pregnant at the moment, when is she due?
 
When I visited in March, a volunteer in the clore responded to my question about it by saying the female was a 'problem' animal at her previous zoo, and for reasons of aggression they needed to separate her from the male. I took this to mean she had been moved to the leopard block while the male was left in the main exhibit. However, if this is the breeding female from Dudley I am not aware of any aggression problems at that establishment prior to her transfer to London. She could I suppose be pregnant but you would expect the staff to have separated the male if this was the case as she appeared quite agitated in the leopard enclosure. BUT I only saw her for around 45 minutes...take that with a pinch of salt. Also, the volunteer may not have known the exact situation, but she seemed pretty well-briefed.
I wondered perhaps whether the female had become pregnant again before leaving Dudley...which would explain the aggression towards the London male...
 
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johnstoni said:
. Also, the volunteer may not have known the exact situation, but she seemed pretty well-briefed.
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No disrespect to the person concerned, but volunteers sometimes give out wildly innaccurate information and not necessarily their own fault- often by the time information percolates to their level it has become distorted, rather like a game of Chinese whispers.
 
She seemed to know what she was talking about...you can usually tell quite early on if they are out of their depth.
 
Sand Cat said:
I do know that the sole cub was named Hari, and he ended up at South Lakes Wild Animal Park. He's moved around a few times since though due to not breeding, I'd imagine because he prefers people to tigers! I think he briefly went to Twycross, but as they decided to phase out tigers in favour of keeping the Amur Leopards.

I think Hari spent some time at David Gill's other collection in Australia as well, but have no idea where he is now. I'd like to - he is/was a lovely tiger, and easily recognisable as his mother had bitten off part of his tail when he was a newborn cub, hence him being hand-reared!
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Hari did, indeed, come to Australia under David Gill's ownership. He lived at the then Mareeba Wild Animal Park until the new owner did a deal to send him to Perth Zoo on a breeding loan deal. I believe that he will return to Mareeba later this year having done what was expected of him in Perth!

Physically, he looks a bit of a wreck but he is the most human oriented [in the right way!] Sumatran that I have ever met.

I have been told by someone in the UK that he did spend time at Twycross Zoo post London and prior to moving to South Lakes.
 
johnstoni said:
She seemed to know what she was talking about...you can usually tell quite early on if they are out of their depth.
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talking of misinformation- on the Bristol 'keeper talk' at the Gorillas(and on the website) they say that Salome's baby(Komale) is genetically very important "because his mother Salome's father was wildcaught" In fact both Salome's parents were wildcaught, and so were 'Romina's too- but that's not the issue- both babies are important because their grandparents (and both mothers) have little or no other representation in the captive population. I'm surprised the Zoo describes it in the way they do. When I talked to one of the keeper's she was virtually unaware of Romina's past history.
 
Steve Robinson said:
Hari did, indeed, come to Australia under David Gill's ownership. He lived at the then Mareeba Wild Animal Park until the new owner did a deal to send him to Perth Zoo on a breeding loan deal.
I have been told by someone in the UK that he did spend time at Twycross Zoo post London and prior to moving to South Lakes.
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A much travelled Tiger....
 
That sort of thing is bad chinese whispers...when the longest-serving keeper likes to ad lib...everyone else won't dare check out their facts..I've been there and it's embarrassing ..
 
johnstoni said:
That sort of thing is bad chinese whispers...when the longest-serving keeper likes to ad lib...everyone else won't dare check out their facts..I've been there and it's embarrassing ..
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Yes, I know all about that too. I was surprised at how inaccurate this Bristol information was though- its even on the press section of their website, as is the information that Salome's previous baby was born at Chessington (it was born at London) plus an entirely false statement about the number of babies born at Bristol (in order to mask the enormous number of DNS births in the past):(
 
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