Dreamworld Sumatran Tigers/Dreamworld

Ara said:
Two points:-

1. "Reintroduction", which is spoken about so glibly, is not easy. Has reintroduction of zoo-bred tigers occurred successfully anywhere?

2. If Panna National Park has lost all of its tigers, has the cause of those losses been identified and, more importantly, rectified? No point trying reintroduction until it has.
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A few predatory reintroduction projects are now being attempted. Save china's tigers & john varty's bengal tiger project in south africa are examples of tiger reintroduction projects. The main reason it has rarely being tried before is because it does take a lot of work, patience & quite likely, a lot of money in order to achieve a succesfull result. Just because something hasn't being tried before doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried now, nor does it mean it can't be done.

Panna should definatly stamp down on the reason it's previous tigers have vanished before any reintroductions are planned, but until then the natural order of things keeping this reserve balanced, will be shattered without it's top predator...
 
Indeed. There was a time when conventional thinking totally dismissed carnivore reintroductions. Over the last 8-10 years we have had quite a few examples of predator reintroductions, both in immigrant populations and in vacant habitat. The trial and error time period is now over and mega carnivore reintroductions - even from captive sources - are more a possible reality than they have ever been. :D

If you have been into the subject matter, you might have noticed a recent genetics study corroborating that captive Amur tigers have more genetic diversity than any of the Eastern Siberian wild Amur tiger populations. This indicates that with introduction of captive genes into the wild population - either direct or by indirect means (AI on wild females) - the genetic diversity and viability of the wild populations can be brought significantly up.

It is only a matter of time untill captive Amur leopard, Amur tiger, Asian lion and Asiatic cheetah may be used in monitored release programmes.
 
Exactly. The whole point of most (good) zoo's is to maintain healthy 'backup' populations of endangered & critically endangered animals, in the likely event of severe population declines in the wild (for various reasons e.g. mass deasese, predation, loss of habitat etc) ; having a back-up population ensures that a wild species can be saved from inbreeding & eventual extinction. There will be risks & maybe even dissadvatages involved with releasing or 'rewilding' animals, but the eventuall outcome is far better & kinder for all involved within a natural eco-system.

I would love to work within a project like this, that involves the big cats you mentioned. Being the dominant predators of their respective eco-systems, makes them invaluable to nature, & all of them could be gone within one harsh winter...
 
JonnyS18 said:
Haha Kifaru bwana i think you must be psychic :P Have a look at this article i found today. Sorry it's a little off the original topic, but it applies to the conversation we were having.

To be spotted again: India wants to bring back the cheetah - Nature, Environment - The Independent
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JohnnyS18,

This is another project I am not too keen on. They wish to bring back the cheetah. Well, Indian zoos are not well established in maintaining cheetah. Recently, Sakkarbaug Zoo, Junagarh, Gujrat received S.African cheetah from Singapore. They are however a long way off from reintroducting cheetah. Their target species, the Asiatic cheetah has a foothold in I.R. of Iran and this population is just making a slight comeback at between 6-100 individuals. It would not make any sense to present the Indian authorities with Asiatic cheetah with so few in the wild. A captive-breeding project is however on the cards in Iran with husbandry/technical expertise from UAE.

K.B.
 
JonnyS18 said:
A few predatory reintroduction projects are now being attempted. Save china's tigers & john varty's bengal tiger project in south africa are examples of tiger reintroduction projects. The main reason it has rarely being tried before is because it does take a lot of work, patience & quite likely, a lot of money in order to achieve a succesfull result. Just because something hasn't being tried before doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried now, nor does it mean it can't be done.
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Are you honestly suggesting that the Chinese tiger 'reintroduction project' in South Africa is anything other than a publicity stunt? Allowing hand-raised tigers to hunt African animals has no benefit to an end goal of wild tigers in China. Protecting the few existing individuals and restocking the surrounding protected areas with some of the hopelessly inbred captives would be a step in the right direction, if a little too late for the subspecies.

However I do think there is a lot of potential for releasing captive-bred carnivores into the wild. Unfortunately they require alot of space and the locals often get twitchy about animals that might kill them or their stock. I know this is vearing more and more off subject, but does anybody know whether captive-reared animals have been used in the lynx releases in Europe, cheetahs in Africa or the wolves in Yellowstone? Have any red wolves been released in the 'wild' now? There are probably precidents for captive-reared carnivore releases.
 
tetrapod said:
Are you honestly suggesting that the Chinese tiger 'reintroduction project' in South Africa is anything other than a publicity stunt? Allowing hand-raised tigers to hunt African animals has no benefit to an end goal of wild tigers in China. Protecting the few existing individuals and restocking the surrounding protected areas with some of the hopelessly inbred captives would be a step in the right direction, if a little too late for the subspecies.
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Well obviously South africa wasn't the immediate choice of area to train the tigers. The organisation is English, & the founder & animals are native to China, so the fact that the animals are being train in SA has nothing to do with publicity, it was simply easier because there is more space, cheaper land, an abundance of 'prey' animals & as a benefit the area was once farm land, so the wild native animals being able to reclaim their land is much better for the eco-system.

The fact that this organisation is not open to the public also convinces me that its not just a 'publicity' stunt, however i think that it should be. There are very few projects like this anywhere in the world: Most of the general public are completely unaware that the South china tiger exsists, let alone know of its critical condition: And the more money that is made, the greater the chance of this project being a success.

I dont understand what you mean by ''Allowing hand-raised tigers to hunt African animals has no benefit to an end goal of wild tigers in China'' The tigers involved in the project are living proof that the way they have grown up & adapted to their environment has been nothing BUT good for them. They hunt extremely well, do not seem to be the victims of genetic conditions commonly found within their captive population. They have bred five healthy cubs in just 2 years & the females have been excellent mothers. Also the fact that they're learning how to provide & fend for themselves brings them that much closer to being fit enough to be released back into the wilds of China....
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
JohnnyS18,

This is another project I am not too keen on. They wish to bring back the cheetah. Well, Indian zoos are not well established in maintaining cheetah. Recently, Sakkarbaug Zoo, Junagarh, Gujrat received S.African cheetah from Singapore. They are however a long way off from reintroducting cheetah. Their target species, the Asiatic cheetah has a foothold in I.R. of Iran and this population is just making a slight comeback at between 6-100 individuals. It would not make any sense to present the Indian authorities with Asiatic cheetah with so few in the wild. A captive-breeding project is however on the cards in Iran with husbandry/technical expertise from UAE.

K.B.
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I agree, in my opinion India needs to concentrate on the animals that they are losing before bringing back the ones they've lost. Both the bengal tiger & asiatic lion are critically endangered but it is by no means too late to help them simply by improving park security & preventing genetic 'islands'. Even if a national park has a good population of 30 tigers, the chances are most of those tigers are related in some way which will eventually lead to severe inbreeding. Its never a good idea to put nature in a box, in my opinion a few connecting (well guarded) national parks would be a far better 'temporary' solution for India's wildlife. Once they've protected the animals currently in need of saving, should they bring back species that have already gone. Besides, the asiatic cheetah is an animal that needs severe breeding planning with such a small gene pool. I personally think it would be easier to just bring in specimins from Africa...
 
Tigers is South Africa

If we are talking about the Londolozzi place and the doco that was made a number of years ago the tigers were born in California, moved to canada, and then on for this filming. I believe the doco was called "Tiger Moon".

The tigers are of white tiger origin and while there was some very good footage there was no value to eventually releasing tigers back into the wild.
 
I have also seen that documentary & it is very debateable, a lot of rumours & half truths circle that project & im not even so sure about the founder's intentions at all. I may even start a new thread on it as this one is kind of losing the plot =P, but i think tetrapod was talking about the Save China's Tigers foundation, which i stand firmly on the belief that what they are doing is the defimition of conservation.
 
JonnyS18 said:
Well obviously South africa wasn't the immediate choice of area to train the tigers. The organisation is English, & the founder & animals are native to China, so the fact that the animals are being train in SA has nothing to do with publicity, it was simply easier because there is more space, cheaper land, an abundance of 'prey' animals & as a benefit the area was once farm land, so the wild native animals being able to reclaim their land is much better for the eco-system.
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You are correct that I was referring to the Save China Tiger project. If the project is based in South Africa because it is simpler, easier, cheaper, more space and abundant with prey, then there is little chance that this project will see Chinese tigers in the wilds of China. It is one thing to breed up a species ex-situ, but there is little point 'training' animals for reintroduction if there is no where for them to go. Don't get me wrong; returning previous farmland to native bush is a plus, but the ecosystem doesn't include non-native tigers.

JonnyS18 said:
The fact that this organisation is not open to the public also convinces me that its not just a 'publicity' stunt, however i think that it should be. There are very few projects like this anywhere in the world: Most of the general public are completely unaware that the South china tiger exsists, let alone know of its critical condition: And the more money that is made, the greater the chance of this project being a success.
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Most of the tiger conservation charities have 'written off' South Chinese tigers as a subspecies worth conserving. A pity in some ways because I understand that they may be the 'original' tiger, a population housing genes lost in other populations. On the other hand there are so few tigers in the wild and those in captivity are severely inbred. The 70-90 individuals result from 4 founders.

The Chinese didn't need to take tigers to South Africa to gain publicity for the most endangered subspecies. Tigers just about sell themselves. Look at India, renowned as the home of the tiger and a major reason for tourists to go there. China sells the image of their giant pandas. Basically China left it too late to save the tiger and has run out of room to reintroduce them. In a major saving of face the country has looked to another country with a better success of preserving large carnivores to get them out of a hole. If not, then where are these tigers going to go?

JonnyS18 said:
I dont understand what you mean by ''Allowing hand-raised tigers to hunt African animals has no benefit to an end goal of wild tigers in China'' The tigers involved in the project are living proof that the way they have grown up & adapted to their environment has been nothing BUT good for them. They hunt extremely well, do not seem to be the victims of genetic conditions commonly found within their captive population. They have bred five healthy cubs in just 2 years & the females have been excellent mothers. Also the fact that they're learning how to provide & fend for themselves brings them that much closer to being fit enough to be released back into the wilds of China....
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The tigers have grown up and adapted to their environment and it has been good for them. The problem is the environment is South Africa and not China. Effectively we are talking about a feral species. Hunting zebra and antelope is not the correct training for cats that will hunt deer and boar in the wild. Hunting in savannah/bushland is not the same as forest. Getting tigers to breed is not the hard part of this equation; having somewhere for big cats with large territories with sufficient native prey and free from local persecution is the hard part. Oh and you don't start a reintroduction project with just 2 individuals! Presumably more individuals are being added to this project. But are they following IUCN reintroduction guidelines?

Do I think that this project has any chance of seeing breeding tigers in a protected forest in China.... no. Even the more adaptable leopards are struggling to keep a foothold in the ever increasing human biomass that is China. Sorry if this sounds completely cynical, but sometimes one must look at the facts realistically and know when governments/businesses are paying lip-service to conservation.
 
I don't think what you're saying is cynical. On the contrary you're thoughts & opinions are very constructive & should be taken into consideration. However i still disagree:

For a start as i've said before, this project has little to do with government, it is the brain child of a wealthy chinese woman who (although has little conservation experience) has decided to at least TRY to save a species native to her home in Southern China. For this reason alone, this woman should be given all the praise & credit in the world. Conservation projects like this are few & far between, so even if there is little hope of success, calling it a failure before it has even began IS rather cynical.

On regards to hunting, a tiger doesn't just reach adulthood & then automatically knows how to hunt everything from experience in adolescence. Being the top predator of every environment it occurs in, means that any creature it comes across is fair game. Im sure the tigers are equipped to tackle any prey species found in China, as they are capable of hunting prey found in SA. If anything, tackling zebra only makes them more prepared for anything. The same could be said for hunting grounds, Africa is not just made of sand & grass, plenty of lush grass bushes & even trees occur where these tigers are currently training. & even so, with being such adaptable predators, they will surely learn from experience how to hunt in their home environment. They havn't spent millions of years evolving into one of the most succesfully predators, to become baffeled by trees.

From what i have said on here & in other posts, you will probably know that i am an optomist :). But im not naive. This project is a long shot to say the least, for a start the aim of the project was to release the first SC tigers back into China by 2008... the first cub wasn't born until late 2007... there have been set backs & losses, but this doesn't make the project a failure. In the likely event of the South Chinese Tiger become extinct in captivity as it did in the wild, there is at least one conservationist out there that can say she tried her best to make sure it did not happen. Conservationists with views & opninons similar to yours would never be able to make that statement, as they are already deeming this project a failure before it has truly begun.
 
Sorry i forgot to add to another of your points. Pilot reserves have been drawn out & talked about in the past concerning where to release the tigers once they are experienced enough & old enough. Reserves have been mapped out & the chinese government is more than supportive of the idea, however action is still to be taken as to where the tigers will be 'officially' released.

China Pilot Reserve | Save China's Tigers

I agree with you here, as i think if the tigers had a solid & secure future in a Chinese reserve already waiting for them, then there would be nothing holding this project back.
 
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