Taronga Zoo taronga's elephants pregnant already
- Thread starter Coquinguy
- Start date
Chimpanzees
Auckland no longer has breeding chimps -- the only one that they have is an ex Tea Party chimp that couldnt be reintegrated , and is basically in retirement .
Hamilton Zoo has taken over from Auckland as a chimp breeding centre .
but wait , theres Wellington Zoo ......
for some (unknown ?) reason there has been prolofic breeding of chimps and baboons at Wellington zoo , to the point where two troops of each have to share the same enclosure with the same species
There is approx 20 chimpanzees in Wellington zoo -- the zoo doesnt update its website that often , and I hope to visit the zoo again when school resumes in another week .
Auckland no longer has breeding chimps -- the only one that they have is an ex Tea Party chimp that couldnt be reintegrated , and is basically in retirement .
Hamilton Zoo has taken over from Auckland as a chimp breeding centre .
but wait , theres Wellington Zoo ......
for some (unknown ?) reason there has been prolofic breeding of chimps and baboons at Wellington zoo , to the point where two troops of each have to share the same enclosure with the same species
There is approx 20 chimpanzees in Wellington zoo -- the zoo doesnt update its website that often , and I hope to visit the zoo again when school resumes in another week .
chimps in the region
first of all, lets establish that the chimps in the region are a bit of a mixed bag...??? is this true? to what extent are the regions chimps 'hybridised'? if anybody knows?
the degree to which taronga and wellingotns animals are related i would estimate to be quite high. particularly considering not only the consistently high nukber of births both institutions have had over a number of decades but also the relatively small number of founders (relative to the number of births and regional population as a whole) and the exchange of Snowy in the 1980s to taronga from wellingotn, where he became the dominant animal.
pat
where did melbourne display its chimpanzees in the past? does there enclosure still exist? the chimp enclosure at perth was demolished fairly recently for the expansion of the second elephant paddock. i am unsure if perth aims to hold chimpanzee's long-term but they have highlighted projected involvement with gorilla (proposed) and orang only.
i would also like to know what mogo's future involvement will be, as well as hamiltons long range 'forecast' for their collection.
so far weve got a fair bit of info, please keep digging.
first of all, lets establish that the chimps in the region are a bit of a mixed bag...??? is this true? to what extent are the regions chimps 'hybridised'? if anybody knows?
the degree to which taronga and wellingotns animals are related i would estimate to be quite high. particularly considering not only the consistently high nukber of births both institutions have had over a number of decades but also the relatively small number of founders (relative to the number of births and regional population as a whole) and the exchange of Snowy in the 1980s to taronga from wellingotn, where he became the dominant animal.
pat
where did melbourne display its chimpanzees in the past? does there enclosure still exist? the chimp enclosure at perth was demolished fairly recently for the expansion of the second elephant paddock. i am unsure if perth aims to hold chimpanzee's long-term but they have highlighted projected involvement with gorilla (proposed) and orang only.i would also like to know what mogo's future involvement will be, as well as hamiltons long range 'forecast' for their collection.
so far weve got a fair bit of info, please keep digging.
I haven't heard that zoo boy, but the chimp studbook is pretty complete for the region, as are the zoo's records. With species like chimps, where individuals are well-recognised, and well managed,there are so many copies of records and studbooks around, that even if a zoo's records were destroyed, collecting the basic pedigree data is pretty easy for them.
zoopro do you know if they are they of mixed origins then? a few japanese zoos recently collaboratively DNA tested all their chimps so as to recognise and develop a program for the pure-breds.
of course that wouldn't be particuarly practical in our case, but i would be interested to know where most of them originate from.
of course that wouldn't be particuarly practical in our case, but i would be interested to know where most of them originate from.
i agree with you pat, it would be extremely 'un-do-able'. i guess the chimps in our region are just like our lions, best kept as a mixed bag for education, advocacy and research purposes. that would be the most effective outcome from any CBP for the species.
could you imagine trying to phase the hybrid chimps out and trying to start again with pure-bred chimps. it would be a nightmare. 48 chimps, many young or middle-aged, long lived, socially complex and difficult to integrate strangers together. it would be a nightmare.
chimps will probably have to be split internationally into several sub-management groups (if this hasnt already happened). there will be b\hybrids and purebreds and seperate studbooks for each viable sub-species. and of these groups there will probably have to be a high level of regional management, for example, im sure there would be more than just one hybrid sub-group and one sub-species group in US zoos. i imagine there would be mulitple management groups.
could you imagine trying to phase the hybrid chimps out and trying to start again with pure-bred chimps. it would be a nightmare. 48 chimps, many young or middle-aged, long lived, socially complex and difficult to integrate strangers together. it would be a nightmare.
chimps will probably have to be split internationally into several sub-management groups (if this hasnt already happened). there will be b\hybrids and purebreds and seperate studbooks for each viable sub-species. and of these groups there will probably have to be a high level of regional management, for example, im sure there would be more than just one hybrid sub-group and one sub-species group in US zoos. i imagine there would be mulitple management groups.
i'm not sure but there are only around 5 hybrids i believe - at melbourne, auckland and taronga. thats not too bad. my personal viwe is they pose equal educational opprotunities as the purebreds and that our zoos have a responsibility to look after them since we bred them. the biggest issue concerning orangs is probably that in consolodating all the borneans to new zealand and sumatrans to australia we still ended up with a zoo (auckland)holding a subspecies that is not part of the regionally recommended program. ideally another overseas zoo, not holding orangs, will take interest in the entire colony and auckland can move them on and start the slow process of aquiring sumatrans. i belive this is the long-term plan, its just about finding an decent institution who wants them.
we did a good job getting pure orangs, but we did only have a small population.
i beleive chimps could be done, but let say taronga, auckland and meblourne take over, and leave mogo, monarto, and any other zoo taht wants em, take the others, maybe we can manage mixed groups, such as charlie who was congo caught, he can be mixed with pures, whilst leaving samantha etc on contraceptives.
that would be the best way, introduce new animals to troops (a nightmare thou) that are pure, whilst leaving others on conracepts, or moving to zoos, or i would like to see a retirement park for excess animals, and allow big zoos concentrate on pure species/sub-species.
i beleive chimps could be done, but let say taronga, auckland and meblourne take over, and leave mogo, monarto, and any other zoo taht wants em, take the others, maybe we can manage mixed groups, such as charlie who was congo caught, he can be mixed with pures, whilst leaving samantha etc on contraceptives.
that would be the best way, introduce new animals to troops (a nightmare thou) that are pure, whilst leaving others on conracepts, or moving to zoos, or i would like to see a retirement park for excess animals, and allow big zoos concentrate on pure species/sub-species.
There's currently 30 orangs in the region:
6 hybrids, at Auckland, Melbourne and Taronga
16 Sumatrans at Adelaide, Melbourne, Perth and Taronga
8 Bornean at Auckland
The long-term plan is to replace the hybrids with Sumatrans. As you probably have read elsewhere, Perth released a female Sumatran into a National Park in Sumatra late last year.
6 hybrids, at Auckland, Melbourne and Taronga
16 Sumatrans at Adelaide, Melbourne, Perth and Taronga
8 Bornean at Auckland
The long-term plan is to replace the hybrids with Sumatrans. As you probably have read elsewhere, Perth released a female Sumatran into a National Park in Sumatra late last year.
and what if we found that not only did we have the hybrid chimps to manage for the next 60+ years, but we had representatives of say, 2 or 3 different subspecies present in the population also? pretty impractical wouldn't you say? especially since some zoos like melbourne have no plans to ever house chimps.
a chimpanzee pipe dream
i agree with patrick on this point, insofar that replacing our hybrid population of chimpanzees would be extremely unlikely.
its highly unlikely that we are ever going to see a pure viable population of lions in this country, or giraffes or chimpanzees. in the case of the chimps, the region should just continue and expand its focus on in-situ work and import unrelated animals as needed.
i agree with patrick on this point, insofar that replacing our hybrid population of chimpanzees would be extremely unlikely.
its highly unlikely that we are ever going to see a pure viable population of lions in this country, or giraffes or chimpanzees. in the case of the chimps, the region should just continue and expand its focus on in-situ work and import unrelated animals as needed.
much like our chimpanzees, our lions come from various sources. i'm fine with this, but i'm hoping that there are none left in the region whos ancestry traces back to asian lions. i'm probably somewhat of the belief that there are simply two subspecies, asian and african and if this is the case at least our lions are pureblood african regardless of what area of the continent they hail.
Correct Glyn. There are very few chimps of known wild origins in the pedigrees of the living chimps in the region, and only two of these are alive (1 at Willowbank, and 1 at Auckland).
All of the chimps in the region have been managed at species level for many years, because, as Pat points out, we are breeding chimps in this region purely for display purposes. With the huge proportion of chimps that are not pure subspecies in this region, there is absolutely no point managing them any other way.
We will never phase out these subspecies hybrids in favour of animals of known subspecies, and even if we did, there are so few pure subspecies chimps in captivity available to us, that it would be a pointless excersie - we would never obtain enough unrelated animals to start a decent regional group.
The regiona currently has 48 chimps in 8 institutions, and plans to increase to 60 chimps in 9 institutions within the next 5 years. Breeding recommendations are developed each year by the species coordinator, and agreed upon by all institutions holding chimps. Only specimens listed with breeding recommendations are to breed, and all other breeding must be prevented or a recommendation agreed upon by the species coordinator and institution if breeding to institutional capacity.
DNA testing is being carried out here and in other regions to determine paternity, where unknown, and this will provide data to enable more complete studbooks, hopefully tracing all animals back to wild founders, and therefore a better idea of which animals originated from the different subspecies.
provenece of our chimps
just for interests sake, and i know at least two us would be interested (pat & me) it will be great when they establish what chimpanzee is descended from who and what part of africa...going on characteristics does our regional collection show certain features which would indicate a high proportion of a certain sub-species?
on a historical timeline from the start of captive breeding to todays more organised captive breeding programs it seems the species that proved easiest to breed are the ones today in the worst case of genetic mixing.
lions, chimps, giraffes, lots of primate species, leopards, orangutans, pumas have all bred historically well in zoos and now exist in such big hybrid numbers.
its ironic to observe that the species that were more difficult to breed, or at least to do so consistently in the past such as gorillas, elephants, lemurs and tigers stand the most genetically pure today.
just for interests sake, and i know at least two us would be interested (pat & me) it will be great when they establish what chimpanzee is descended from who and what part of africa...going on characteristics does our regional collection show certain features which would indicate a high proportion of a certain sub-species?
on a historical timeline from the start of captive breeding to todays more organised captive breeding programs it seems the species that proved easiest to breed are the ones today in the worst case of genetic mixing.
lions, chimps, giraffes, lots of primate species, leopards, orangutans, pumas have all bred historically well in zoos and now exist in such big hybrid numbers.
its ironic to observe that the species that were more difficult to breed, or at least to do so consistently in the past such as gorillas, elephants, lemurs and tigers stand the most genetically pure today.
too true. with perth and melbournes original animals hailing from penninsular malaysia and the newbies originating in thailand, we are in a position to manage our elephants at the subspecies level unlike most american and european zoos. i hope this remains the case.
sumatrans are pure, but tigers are relatively easy to breed in captivity (albeit not as easy as lions) and lets not forget the large population of hybids we have here also!
one of melbournes gorillas is listed at the species level on isis. however isis is behind the 8-ball when it comes to the latest and most excepted nomanclature of species/sub-species so it really could mean not much at all. though its entirely plausable, i doubt shes a nigerian cross river gorilla.
sumatrans are pure, but tigers are relatively easy to breed in captivity (albeit not as easy as lions) and lets not forget the large population of hybids we have here also!
one of melbournes gorillas is listed at the species level on isis. however isis is behind the 8-ball when it comes to the latest and most excepted nomanclature of species/sub-species so it really could mean not much at all. though its entirely plausable, i doubt shes a nigerian cross river gorilla.
Although some taxonomic references describe different subspecies of Asian elephants, (and Perth in fact list one of there's as Elephas maximus hirsutus), Asian elephants in this region are managed at species level.
All of Melbourne's gorillas are now shown on ISIS at subspecies level. It's quite likely that the one that was shown at species level was entered that way incorrectly, at the institution where the animal was born. ISIS assumes that the recorder of the birth of an animal should have the most accurate details on its taxonomic level, and this is what is shown on the ISIS web site, until such times as all institutions that have held the animal agree on the taxonomy, and change their ISIS records accordingly. It's highly unlikely that this animal was recorded that way because it was thought to be a subspecies hybrid.
All of Melbourne's gorillas are now shown on ISIS at subspecies level. It's quite likely that the one that was shown at species level was entered that way incorrectly, at the institution where the animal was born. ISIS assumes that the recorder of the birth of an animal should have the most accurate details on its taxonomic level, and this is what is shown on the ISIS web site, until such times as all institutions that have held the animal agree on the taxonomy, and change their ISIS records accordingly. It's highly unlikely that this animal was recorded that way because it was thought to be a subspecies hybrid.