Tasmanian Devil Ambassador Program in Europe

[MRJ]

Something might be going "on" with Koebenhavn Zoo as it seems that in 2012 2.2 exported were breeding age individuals (Not sure about the 2006 import). Did they disregard the ZAA guidelines of sending out surplus stock and then breeding from the pool they got?

This has nothing to do with the ZAA, it is all the responsibility of the Tasmanian government. This all relates to Princess Mary, who is probably the best known Tasmanian alive (maybe some cricketer or sportsperson is, I don't know). While she continues to come back occasionally for holidays in Tasmania, I suspect Copenhagen Zoo will continue to get whatever devils they need.

 

[HOMIN96]

One factor which might be illuminating as to whether the policy *is* being reassessed or not would be to learn how old the animals which have arrived at Prague are - any idea, @HOMIN96 ?

There were some hints, that at least some of the animals sent to Prague are in reproductive age, but the age is not mentioned anywhere. Just this morning, their keeper uploaded a video of the Devil morning checkup, where he describes, why they do this checkup and introduces us to every devil by saying its name and how to tell it apart from other devils based on fur markings, but there are no ages mentioned (which might be a hint as well ).

From the video, it looks like the male and of the females are slightly smaller (possibly younger?) but it could be just because of the camera angle...

 

[HOMIN96]

From the discussion here, it seemed pretty clear already, but if you want additional confirmation that Prague won't be able to breed the devils, Prague's director banned me on his FB profile when I asked him about it...but maybe some...ehm..."accident" will happen, who knows...

 

[Jana]

From the discussion here, it seemed pretty clear already, but if you want additional confirmation that Prague won't be able to breed the devils, Prague's director banned me on his FB profile when I asked him about it...but maybe some...ehm..."accident" will happen, who knows...

Being banned by Prague zoo director on FB is no indication of anything. I got banned by him years ago for very innocent question.

 

[HOMIN96]

Being banned by Prague zoo director on FB is no indication of anything. I got banned by him years ago for very innocent question.

I know he is banning a lot of people for something that might be deemed as "innocent" but it is never without a reason. These comments usually have a common thing - they either hurt his ego, or put him in somewhat "bad" position (and this would fit, given that in some of his previous comments he sounded like he hopes that they will be able to breed them)

 

[Jana]

I know he is banning a lot of people for something that might be deemed as "innocent" but it is never without a reason. These comments usually have a common thing - they either hurt his ego, or put him in somewhat "bad" position (and this would fit, given that in some of his previous comments he sounded like he hopes that they will be able to breed them)

Yes, I have realised he´s narcissist and generaly has vindictive and crooked character around the time he got elected as a zoo director. Usualy he shows his nice side to media, but his real face appears in some longer interviews when he get slightly uncomfortable. Till today I am so sad Zámečník didn´t get the post - capable, honest, well versed in management and life-long die-hard zoo fan.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Yes, I have realised he´s narcissist and generaly has vindictive and crooked character around the time he got elected as a zoo director. Usualy he shows his nice side to media, but his real face appears in some longer interviews when he get slightly uncomfortable. Till today I am so sad Zámečník didn´t get the post - capable, honest, well versed in management and life-long die-hard zoo fan.

Yes, Jana ..., it was a very political appointment.

I was surprised you got banned by the man on his Facebook for asking a question.

 

[Cat-Man]

Before Copenhagen obtained their devils, where were the last ones in Europe, and why did they die out?

 

[Fallax]

Before Copenhagen obtained their devils, where were the last ones in Europe, and why did they die out?

According to zootierliste the last ones held were in Budapest in 1995. Can't find anything on why they left or if they died. If someone knows more that'd be helpful.

 

[HOMIN96]

One article shared a detailed description of all the devils in Prague. They are:

• Sumac (M), born 5th April 2018
• Nutmeg (F), born 3rd April 2018
• Aniseed (F), born 5th April 2018
• Laurel (F), date of birth not mentioned.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

One article shared a detailed description of all the devils in Prague. They are:

• Sumac (M), born 5th April 2018
• Nutmeg (F), born 3rd April 2018
• Aniseed (F), born 5th April 2018
• Laurel (F), date of birth not mentioned.

We can live in hope of cubs (even if technically not wanted or out of the question)!

 

[HOMIN96]

We can live in hope of cubs (even if technically not wanted or out of the question)!

Well, given that they are from the same breeding station and two of them have the same DoB, There is probably an inbreeding factor to consider as well.

Anyways, inside source from Prague actually told me few days ago that they do negotiate about the possibility to breed them. Not sure if it was intentional, but zoo's representatives actually confirmed their aspirations to the press, so possibly next year there could be first non-Copenhagen European born devils.

One of the articles also states that the same thing might happen in the United States.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Well, given that they are from the same breeding station and two of them have the same DoB, There is probably an inbreeding factor to consider as well.

Anyways, inside source from Prague actually told me few days ago that they do negotiate about the possibility to breed them. Not sure if it was intentional, but zoo's representatives actually confirmed their aspirations to the press, so possibly next year there could be first non-Copenhagen European born devils.

One of the articles also states that the same thing might happen in the United States.

Personally, I think the Tassie devil needs all the help it can get in allowing its populations to recover ex situ (and not just in-country). This is true for both non-breeding animals and those designated allowed to breed.

P.S.: I was well aware that some of the Praha Tassies are actually siblings given the date of birth, I was just offering my personal view on options available (and these can also be without first degree inbreeding breeding) with breeding from the Praha group.

Let us wait and see how the negotiations and cooperation with the Tasmanian Govt. and Recovery Program pan out going forward. We can only but live in hope.

 

[MRJ]

Personally, I think the Tassie devil needs all the help it can get in allowing its populations to recover ex situ (and not just in-country). This is true for both non-breeding animals and those designated allowed to breed.

P.S.: I was well aware that some of the Praha Tassies are actually siblings given the date of birth, I was just offering my personal view on options available (and these can also be without first degree inbreeding breeding) with breeding from the Praha group.

Let us wait and see how the negotiations and cooperation with the Tasmanian Govt. and Recovery Program pan out going forward. We can only but live in hope.

Afraid I have to disagree with you.

There is no conservation value at all in Prague Zoo breeding devils. If they breed devils it would be entirely for their own purposes.

If they want to do something for conservation they should work on one of the more than 10,000 other threatened species on the IUCN list that are not getting the attention that Tasmanian devils are.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Afraid I have to disagree with you.

There is no conservation value at all in Prague Zoo breeding devils. If they breed devils it would be entirely for their own purposes.

If they want to do something for conservation they should work on one of the more than 10,000 other threatened species on the IUCN list that are not getting the attention that Tasmanian devils are.

MRJ, I know where you are coming from and along those lines we are in both in full agreement. Now, Tassie devils have a novelty and cuddly factor for some reasons best unexplained, but this begs a very serious debate on the validity of export elsewhere.

Just, seriously and following this more than valid argument further that puts under question mark / jeopardy the entire rationale of first exporting Tassie devils outside Australia/Tasmania alltogether as a (credible) conservation measure in the first place. The current rationale for export - as you and I are well aware of - is that it opens up spaces for the breeding programme at home to breed locations for the recommended breedings of Tassie devils within Australia and Tasmania and some tacit support for the recovery effort at home.

However, going by that line - and being aware many more endangered/threatened species require ex situ programs and spaces in current conventional zoos and captive facilities remain finite - that is a definite criticism on my part over how we are dealing with the Sixth Extinction threat we are under -, those spaces needed to house non-breeding and post reproductive Tassie devils should be found on the Australian Continent itself, would they not. In this light, policy makers and Governments globally seem to be failing and inept at best.

Given that Australia and Tasmania and New Zealand do have so many endangered and threatened species this does beg the question of what commitment from local central Govt., authorities and administrations really there is in fighting the Sixth Extinction crisis and also where this affects the Tassie devil program in particular. Are we doing enough? Where are we failing or should we up our game? Et cetera et cetera.

BTW: my feedback is not directed at some, no - alas - this applies to any other geographical Continent as we speak along with the same set of Government, authorities, administrations, policy makers ....

My feedback is also directed at the seeming lack of (under-)investment - I am particularly not using the term funding as I think that exactly lacks the urgency and underlines the lacklustre policy directives from all Govt.'s globally at this point - commitment and interest to deal with the needs and requirements of saving biodiversity in real terms and conserving our Planet for future generations.

All these thoughts and trepidations that spontaneously come up with me probably do deserve a thread in its own right.

Lest be: I do honestly hope the current efforts to conserve in situ and ex situ of Tassie devils is sufficient to save the species from extinction! Let that be clear to all.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

If they want to do something for conservation they should work on one of the more than 10,000 other threatened species on the IUCN list that are not getting the attention that Tasmanian devils are.

Considering the fact that Prague is heavily involved in in-situ projects relating to the Saola, Laotian Rock Rat, Philippine avifauna and Western Lowland Gorilla, and is also one of the leading collections within the Przewalski Horse reintroduction programme, I think implying they are only paying lip-service to conservation is a tad unfair they are one of the three or four most important European collections in that regard, I would aver!

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Considering the fact that Prague is heavily involved in in-situ projects relating to the Saola, Laotian Rock Rat, Philippine avifauna and Western Lowland Gorilla, and is also one of the leading collections within the Przewalski Horse reintroduction programme, I think implying they are only paying lip-service to conservation is a tad unfair they are one of the three or four most important European collections in that regard, I would aver!

TLD, please read my reply (more) carefully and rest assured my feedback is not directed at the Praha Zoo, but at the wider administrational segment - Governments, Ministries and their departments, law enforcement (general police services, and not the forest or conservation service) authorities and the like of our society.

With respect to Praha Zoo, you did not cite any local programs like for example the souslik - which they use the forest-fields above the African plains and gorilla habitat for. Remember Act Local, Think Global.

BTW: I wish the Conservation Database EAZA maintain would be public (as so many zoos do in situ conservation work which is not always easy to glean from websites, news items and the like. Same goes for ZIMS.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

TLD, please read my reply (more) carefully and rest assured my feedback is not directed at the Praha Zoo, but at the wider administrational segment - Governments, Ministries and their departments, law enforcement (general police services, and not the forest or conservation service) authorities and the like of our society.

Please read my reply (more) carefully and note that I wasn't replying to your post

Incidentally, I omitted any of the European projects they are involved with (sousliks, wisent, various owl and bird of prey species) deliberately, to highlight their international projects more specifically.

 

[MRJ]

Just, seriously and following this more than valid argument further that puts under question mark / jeopardy the entire rationale of first exporting Tassie devils outside Australia/Tasmania alltogether as a (credible) conservation measure in the first place. The current rationale for export - as you and I are well aware of - is that it opens up spaces for the breeding programme at home to breed locations for the recommended breedings of Tassie devils within Australia and Tasmania and some tacit support for the recovery effort at home.

The export of devils is not a conservation program. Zoos want devils and there are plenty of surplus animals available so why not supply them. The benefit to the conservation program is that it gets rid of surplus devils.

...those spaces needed to house non-breeding and post reproductive Tassie devils should be found on the Australian Continent itself, would they not. In this light, policy makers and Governments globally seem to be failing and inept at best.

All devils on display in Australia are surplus to the program, so I guess the next step is euthanasia. Program breeding is restricted to five breeding establishments because that is the most effective and productive way of doing it.

Given that Australia and Tasmania and New Zealand do have so many endangered and threatened species...

Exactly. So why try and duplicate the only fully funded and most successful program on the other side of the world? There are plenty of other species out there that need help.

 

[MRJ]

Considering the fact that Prague is heavily involved in in-situ projects relating to the Saola, Laotian Rock Rat, Philippine avifauna and Western Lowland Gorilla, and is also one of the leading collections within the Przewalski Horse reintroduction programme, I think implying they are only paying lip-service to conservation is a tad unfair they are one of the three or four most important European collections in that regard, I would aver!

I don't think I did imply anything like that. What I do say is that if they bred devils and then claimed it was some sort of conservation achievement that would be greenwashing. Thank you for giving me an insight into their impressive conservation work, I must admit I was totally ignorant of it.