Tesco Selling Live Turtles

[Javan Rhino]

Hi all,

I know this is an old article, but I've only just come across it.

Wildlife Extra News - Outrage as Tesco still sells live turtles

I try and understand culture to certain extents, but to me this is no different to other Chinese traditions such as rhino horn and tiger parts, and I'm just interested in what the rest of the zoochat community thinks of this.

I'm not expecting we'll all agree, there are two sides to every story and would be more than interested to hear the other side defend this practice [other than Tesco defending it with profits]. Whilst this may not happen, I know we have some Chinese members on here and would be very interested in their opinion.

Please let's not let this discussion descend into angry rants with either side refusing to listen to the other, I'm sure we can have a healthy, grown-up debate if there is a difference of opinion.

Also, I hope I'm not offending anybody by challenging a country's culture, that is the last thing I intended to do

 

[Chlidonias]

Please let's not let this discussion descend into angry rants with either side refusing to listen to the other, I'm sure we can have a healthy, grown-up debate if there is a difference of opinion.

you do know this is the internet right?

Seriously, I fully agree. I guess it can be seen as hypocritical seeing I eat meat from other animals that I buy at the supermarket/butcher, but this is rather different in that the turtles are alive, bagged up in bundles on the counter all day ("suffering" isn't too strong a word I don't think), and butchered inhumanely. They may be farmed, or equally they may be wild-caught.

The other part of it is that I gather Tesco claims to be very green and planet-friendly in the UK and yet leave their morals on the mat when they go overseas, using the excuse of "its all right, we're in China, it's their way" (my made-up quote, by the way).

I did a quick google to see if Tesco is still selling live turtles in their Chinese stores and they are. See this petition to stop it for example (bloody photo on the link though): The horror of Tesco selling live, packaged turtles in their supermarkets.

 

[Javan Rhino]

I've opted for the fact that it should be stopped. Whilst I think that traditions are important to uphold, I think in this case animal welfare, conservation and hygiene are the more important things to consider.

The way that they are kept prior to sale seems unacceptable in terms of animal welfare, in a tight netting that appears to restrict all movement.

I don't know what species are being used or how they're obtained, so conservation is a tricky one to pin down, yet I've put it as many species that were plentiful have gone onto endangered lists due to this and similar issues.

I put hygiene into the mix as reptiles are carriers of salmonella, now whilst this would be cooked out of the turtle for whoever eats it, it could still pose a danger in the store if people handle it and then go onto handling other goods.

EDIT: Thanks for your reply Chlidonias, some very interesting points. This is the interent, yes, but I can live in hope

Another reason for posting about this is to find out a little bit more about what is being done/what can be done by ourselves and the zoo community. Are any zoos working with the issue to try and stop it, for means of animal welfare and/or conservation?

I dare to imagine a world where zoos and antis set aside their differences in opinion of animals in captivity, to work with each other on real animal welfare issues such as this [though I know this won't happen ]

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

JR, worthy initiative and I resoundingly agree that TESCO should look into its corporate environmental responsibility seriously and stop this unsustainable and on animal welfare ground untenable trade.

 

[nanoboy]

If I were in the UK, I would boycott Tesco and tell all my friends. But even as students we thought that their products were ***** and we boycotted them anyway.

Anyway, this is a disappointing practice from a Western company pandering to profits. The cultural argument is nonsensical in this context, because I am sure that it was decided in a boardroom somewhere that the practice was legal in China, and if they didn't sell live turtles, customers would just buy it from their competitor.

 

[Chlidonias]

If I were in the UK, I would boycott Tesco and tell all my friends. But even as students we thought that their products were ***** and we boycotted them anyway.

Anyway, this is a disappointing practice from a Western company pandering to profits. The cultural argument is nonsensical in this context, because I am sure that it was decided in a boardroom somewhere that the practice was legal in China, and if they didn't sell live turtles, customers would just buy it from their competitor.

in JR's initial link it was interesting to read the comments below the story and see that a lot of people actually were saying they were going to boycott Tesco. Unfortunately only a very small number of shoppers are even going to be aware this is going on, so it won't have any real affect on the company.

And your second paragraph is spot-on. This isn't an issue of Chinese shops/markets sellings animals in this manner, it is an issue of a supposedly-green European company not wanting to lose business.

 

[nanoboy]

in JR's initial link it was interesting to read the comments below the story and see that a lot of people actually were saying they were going to boycott Tesco. Unfortunately only a very small number of shoppers are even going to be aware this is going on, so it won't have any real affect on the company.

And your second paragraph is spot-on. This isn't an issue of Chinese shops/markets sellings animals in this manner, it is an issue of a supposedly-green European company not wanting to lose business.

What a company does in a far-away land is not going to affect the shopping practices of customers who are trying to make ends meet. So I totally agree with you, but I just wanted to state that their products are *****.

Another thing to note, is that this practice (as far as I know) is not illegal in China. In fact, only Westerners see a problem with selling live turtles, as the average Chinese would expect nothing less from a (super)market. A large Western company making a moral stand in China would only cause it to lose business. The average Chinese will just do their shopping next door. Tesco could quietly, and gradually, take them off the shelves though, and save face. The average Chinese would not be aware of the Western conservationists declaring victory, so everyone's a winner.

 

[Chlidonias]

no it isn't illegal, and it is quite normal. It makes me sad seeing tanks of live frogs, turtles, etc at seafood restaurants and markets in Asia, seeing fruit bats trussed up in food markets waiting for dispatch, and dogs lying with legs tied until they are sold for food, but I have no right to say to anybody there that it is wrong.

However as an international company, Tesco shouldn't be doing it, especially in the manner that they are. That's my opinion anyway. Imagine if they started selling live hog-tied dogs for food: there would be a massive outcry from the west!

 

[nanoboy]

no it isn't illegal, and it is quite normal. It makes me sad seeing tanks of live frogs, turtles, etc at seafood restaurants and markets in Asia, seeing fruit bats trussed up in food markets waiting for dispatch, and dogs lying with legs tied until they are sold for food, but I have no right to say to anybody there that it is wrong.

However as an international company, Tesco shouldn't be doing it, especially in the manner that they are. That's my opinion anyway. Imagine if they started selling live hog-tied dogs for food: there would be a massive outcry from the west!

Oh, tanks with marine creatures are also found in many Western restaurants, so it's not just a Chinese or Asian thing. That leads me to another train of thought: what exactly are Westerners outraged about? The fact that cute live turtles are sold in the supermarket, or the conditions in which said turtles are kept, or the method by which said turtles were acquired by Tesco?

The last two reasons are worthy of protest, but the first reason is hypocritical for a Westerner to condemn given that we do not have the gonads to kill animals when we need meat, but have no problem with bloody meat and fish heads prominently displayed in a supermarket. I am just trying to isolate the reason for the uproar here, because if Tesco issued a statement about 'sustainably farmed turtles' and they kept them in great conditions in aquariums in the supermarket, I wonder if it would then be ok by Western standards.

 

[Hix]

This might be of interest, particularly the section on Chinese Turtle Farms, and the section on American Turtle farms (and the volume they export every year).

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_farming]Turtle farming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]



Hix

 

[Chlidonias]

Oh, tanks with marine creatures are also found in many Western restaurants, so it's not just a Chinese or Asian thing. That leads me to another train of thought: what exactly are Westerners outraged about? The fact that cute live turtles are sold in the supermarket, or the conditions in which said turtles are kept, or the method by which said turtles were acquired by Tesco?

The last two reasons are worthy of protest, but the first reason is hypocritical for a Westerner to condemn given that we do not have the gonads to kill animals when we need meat, but have no problem with bloody meat and fish heads prominently displayed in a supermarket. I am just trying to isolate the reason for the uproar here, because if Tesco issued a statement about 'sustainably farmed turtles' and they kept them in great conditions in aquariums in the supermarket, I wonder if it would then be ok by Western standards.

speaking for myself, if the turtles were farmed and housed in tanks when in the shop, then I wouldn't have a problem with the selling of them for food. Likewise I have no problem with people eating dog meat, and I have no problem eating it myself, but I just think the animal should be treated humanely while it is still alive (which is what I was trying to say in the earlier post).

The reason I don't like seeing the animals live in tanks in the shops and restaurants is simply because I know what they're there for and I like my frogs and turtles alive not as food, it isn't because I have any firm belief that they shouldn't be used as food (if that makes sense).

 

[nanoboy]

speaking for myself, if the turtles were farmed and housed in tanks when in the shop, then I wouldn't have a problem with the selling of them for food. Likewise I have no problem with people eating dog meat, and I have no problem eating it myself, but I just think the animal should be treated humanely while it is still alive (which is what I was trying to say in the earlier post).

The reason I don't like seeing the animals live in tanks in the shops and restaurants is simply because I know what they're there for and I like my frogs and turtles alive not as food, it isn't because I have any firm belief that they shouldn't be used as food (if that makes sense).

I understood what you said in your earlier post, and your last post does make sense. My previous post was me "talking out loud" rather than directing the post at you. I just wanted to clarify what the outrage of Westerners and Zoochatters (like Javan Rhino) was directed towards.

 

[Javan Rhino]

I understood what you said in your earlier post, and your last post does make sense. My previous post was me "talking out loud" rather than directing the post at you. I just wanted to clarify what the outrage of Westerners and Zoochatters (like Javan Rhino) was directed towards.

I have no problem with turtles being used as meat, what my problem with is the conditions they're kept in, and that they are sold live.

When they are killed professionally there are standards of animal welfare and humane standards that make sure the practice is carried out properly - if any old joe could do it then who knows how that turtle is treated behind closed doors?

 

[Chlidonias]

This might be of interest, particularly the section on Chinese Turtle Farms, and the section on American Turtle farms (and the volume they export every year).

that is interesting, especially looking at the scale of the farming there. In Thailand marketplaces you can see baskets full of live baby softshells being sold as food (I haven't been to China yet but I assume the same is true there), and I always just sort of assumed they were fished wild but farming makes a million times more sense.

A couple of photos of one of the babies (so cute!): http://www.zoochat.com/296/baby-softshell-turtle-145932/ and http://www.zoochat.com/296/baby-softshell-turtle-145933/

 

[nanoboy]

I have no problem with turtles being used as meat, what my problem with is the conditions they're kept in, and that they are sold live.

When they are killed professionally there are standards of animal welfare and humane standards that make sure the practice is carried out properly - if any old joe could do it then who knows how that turtle is treated behind closed doors?

I agree with you on them being killed professionally to animal welfare standards. However, in many developing countries, people prefer to buy animals alive, to kill them at home to THEIR standards (such as Muslims halaling meat) and to ensure the freshness of the meat.

My point is that the CONCEPT of buying live animals for cooking at home, is totally acceptable and normal in China. So, a push to stop the sale of live turtles in China, must go hand in hand with stopping the sale of ALL live animals.

Maybe keeping them in better conditions in the supermarket might be something more easily achievable.

Hix and Chlidonias, the number of turtles farmed and exported each year is staggering. That soft shell turtle in the pic is too cute.

 

[Chlidonias]

Hix and Chlidonias, the number of turtles farmed and exported each year is staggering. That soft shell turtle in the pic is too cute.

I didn't eat it. Just saying.

 

[nanoboy]

I didn't eat it. Just saying.

Is anyone familiar with the practice of frying fish while they are still alive? I saw this on a sort of Chinese Master Chef challenge: they take a live fish, hold it by the gills, scale it, then dip the back end in boiling oil, and serve the fish to the customer while it is still writhing in pain. The customer ate the fish while it still had life. Chefs got points based on how "alive" the fish was when served to customers.