The entire conversation surrounding zoos feels fundamentally flawed and just unfair

LARTIS

Well-Known Member
5+ year member
I see a serious threat that zoos could happen to find themself in a position where the expectation of husbandry condition and conservation etc could jump abruptly to a standard they could no longer adapt to fast enough before the funding would run out.

After I have watched both several anti zoo videos and news from the zoos themself, I have to say that I find the conversation over the concept of zoos entirely unprofessional and unfair both for the animals but also the well being of human.

I would like to apologize beforehand, I am exhausted, but due to my mwntal health the concept of writing out everything pver a longer period of time is not optional, but I do think this might be something that could be of value still, well any way.

Sorry if I might put it a bit frankly but the educational state of the general public and also consequently the reactionary of professional organisations such as zoos just fails the matters of zoology and botany and also other parts that are not necessary to this conversation right now

Lack of interest harms entire species

Not going to lie
I wish zoos would criticise the people a bit more as in adressing the issue directly
The people want the best enclosures want to see certain species the very same time they are not interacting with the entire matter in the slightest

There are two main sources of financing for zoos
publing funding and entry fees
both consequently stemming from the peoples opinion on the necessity of such institutions

Idealistic statement
that to an extent is very much possible but due to man mafe condition unrealistic
conservation should not be only the zoos responsibility

I think goverments should ensure that the natural heritage of our planets are protected so that zoos could focuss once again more onto building proper exhibits

I wish that enclosures would be larger and designed more diverse with different regions that neither the visitors could overlook all at once nor the inhabitants so that both could venture through the habitat
I want zoos with in depth exhibition on the animals and their habitat

Personaly so I find it unfair that the people would not make up their mind and find peace that a zoo within the cities center just could not hold certain species

It might not be possible to adapt all these things as quickly as I would want to see some compromised condition to disappear but I am rather confident that these things are the only potential zoos have left
I feel as if there was a resistence within the zoo community not us enthusiasts against progress and I would lile to know where that hesistation stems from do they fear that the entire system would collapse if one would agree with the critics to me this makes them appear rather lunatic
 
I want to apologise, if the following statement might be incompatible
with reactions to my original post, I wrote this statement before I went
back online.

There is an irony to my autism making me feel the need for perfection
and this expectation leading to a pressure that overwhelmed me so much
that I would just give up and only try to just get the things off my
chest. I regret starting off a thread like this that in my opinion could
be very much needed. But I do not want to simply give up just because of
my complex condition. I do not even want to mention all of these things
that seemingly have nothing to do with the matter, but I can not and I
chose to not exclude myself from the conversation, even if its
embarassingly chaotic.

The matter I wanted to talk about is complex and many aspects of the
discussion around the validity of zoos are intertwined.
Something my autistic brain has severe struggles with, its as if several
cognitive activities would interfere with one another.

Every single time I want to write on Zoochat I can not help it and get
super nervous about keeping it short but including all information. I
feel pressured to always think ahead of how people could read my
phrasing, because I know that I would rather likely not be able to
answer any questions any time soon due to my mental health sadly
shifting over time.

My aim is not to create a monologe blog, its just that I sometimes need
a bit time and space to work things out before I could take on new
input. I hope that my credibility is not entirely destroyed at this
point and that my arguments can still be taken serious even if my posts
might be rather poorly written.

Having this said and I hope I have not once more forgotten something. It
might happen that the things I want to adress on this thread would have
worked in a different order but I think I have established enough
understanding that sadly this is only a work in progress.

I hope I am granted a second chance, to allow myself to correct the
previous mistakes and hopefully finaly enable some understanding for the
actual matter. Thanks in advance.
 
The one main issue I had with the conversation regarding the
justification of zoos was that what I perceived as symptoms of an
economic system bigger than the zoos sphere of influence was blamed onto
both specific parks and the general community. In reference to politics
and conservation.

I also find it pathetic how the zoos get blamed by some critics for
condition that are shaped by the interests of the masses, such as what
species are kept, what condition (such as size and enrichment) are
accepted. My impression is that as long as the public does not threaten
a zoo with a boycott, the goverment financing the park does not grant
any investments in proper structures.

I find it unfair towards the zoos but also very very much toward all
those species that are deemed uninteresting by the public. I personaly
find it an audacity that people have and maintain their indifference.

But I also have to honestly note that a part of me thinks that the zoos
themself do an incredible lazy job at promoting their matter.

My impression has been repeatedly that zoos were unjustifiably defensive
towards progress the very same time they appeared overly frightened to
criticize the public and other zoos.

Call out the double standard of the people who only demand specific
condition but do not do anything themselves to help achivieng that state.

Call out the consequences of indifference to species and the general
matter. The indifference to proper educational exhibits.

Its unfair to blame only onto the zoos for the peoples entire behaviour
and mental state.

Call out green peace and wwf for constantly asking for money but having
never shown me what they have achieved over all those years, even giving
out certificates to parks like center parks that have starbucks and
offer coca cola

Call out zoos for still offering coca cola and products from other
companies that have a negative impact on our climate that are on mass
contributors to pollution to poverty in third world countries what
destroys both cultural and natural heritage forcing them into illegal
trades such as the opiod trade or wildlife trade or even localy
consuming bush meat cutting down habitat for farmland

I am also shocked that western zoos do not criticize some zoos in third
world countries and even get animals from these parks. I am not sure if
it would be possible that western zoos would help building proper parks

I do not understand how there could also be so little collaboration
between european parks and new caledonia, or the british oversea
territories , generaly all regions directly linked to western countries.

Call out the zoos that do not dare anything. Call them out for giving up
ony trying.

Call out unprofessionality. Nobody can tell me that these otherwise
professional zoos would have genuinely believed that donnersberg would
have been a proper fit for some of their species. I think the only
reason they gave them species is to get other rare species for their
collection.

Call out zoos that work with big cats and elephants in direct
unprotected physical contact. I am ok with meerkats that are not going
to be released into the wild being allowed to voluntarily interact with
visitors like zurich currently does. I can not tell if everey species
would unlearn their natural instincts in a zoological garden, but even
if we would still need to find a way how we could manage this, are we
allowing genetical overrepresented individuals to be held in captivity,
or do we just scrap some if not most species because keeping them short
or long term would have such dramatic consequences.

Its not that I would think most if not all animal species would die out
sooner or later along their natural habitats but currently does human
interference take place on a level and pace that makes me feel as if
nature would soon no longer even be a space without the direct presence
of the human species and then I have to ask where are the animals then,
have all of them become a sort of street pigeon half domesticated half
neglected left to itlself. Its rather that I felt forced to make peace
with the thought that this mass extinction is just happening in a
chaotic manner that brings up the question when everything has become
man made what is the ethical thing to do what species should be among
those that get saved.

Also the concept of a two tier zoo is absolutely unavcceptable for me
and goes against the very definition of the zoo as an educational and
scientific institution that must provide equal chances for everybody. If
a park can not accumulate enough money to finance its household and
conservation then call out the system.
 
I am so sorry I am trying to sort everything out on a small phone screen, but would like to post the entire statement in several pieces. Please bear with me.
 
Call out enclosures being named after a companj or rich person. Its not
getting any better when scientific instutions the very refugee of the
educated mind would get hijacked by such things. These are attacks on
the integrity that must be called out. It was time to greta thunberg
this conversation.

Sometimes when I look at eastern german or polish czech parks I gain the
impression that they want to keep a certain species because its rare but
make no further effort beyond getting one couple to start a proper
breeding programme. Thats neither sustainable nor good for the
reputation of zoos. Both resources and their genetic lines get wasted
entirely.

I am all pro collaboration with private breeders as long as they are
professional, but I feel currently there has been an overcorrection at
first there was strict denial in collaboration now lots of animals are
sourced from private parties, and lots of this does not

Call out that the import of one or two couples is absolutely nonsense.
Be transparent why only two specimens were imported, I do know that
finances are often the reason, but then be transparent and publicaly
note that lack of financing does not allow the creation of a functional
and sustainable breeding programme.

Call out underfunding both by the goverment but also the people who do
not make their interest in poper parks prevalent so that the politics
and investors find interest in funding proper projects.

Call out enclosures that are already too small when they just built.

Call out enclosures that hold either only enough space for one indiviual
or a couple, but neither allowed to keep more couples of the same
species nor sepatate different individuals in case some would not get
along or their offspring would need to be kept separately. I do not want
to hear any more about a specimen that was in the breeding age to loose
time because they had only space for one and then the male was
infertile, or that they needed to get rid of one because thej needed to
separate the male from the female and the offspring and so. Just start
with a proper complex and not just a single enclosure and if there are
difficulties call them out so change can happen.

Call out architects desigining enclosures and exhibitions without having
any knowledge about the matter. They can not tell me that they would
have done their researching.

Call out that the same species are always shown in the same style
enclosures, most larger species exist in such a wide variety of habitats
that different zoos could easily have a different

Call out architects that focus more on their ego or the peoples
experiences than the educational aspect and first and foremost the
animals wellfare.

For me zoos are on a spectrum one end are the cultural historical shaped
parks such as amsterdam and antwerpen to name just two examples that are
shape by concepts of habitat or taxonomy and the other end are parks
that focus on the recreation of actual existing eco regions such as
arnhems desert or zurichs masoala hall, but in my impression of many
zoos is that most of them are neither, they are not balance in between
these two they are just chaotic and are consequently in my personal
opinion useless in their educational responsibility. They feel like a
theme park

Call out parks that have roller coaster or other larger rides at their
park, not meaning a boat ride that one could also do in the wild but
nobody rides through the jungle on a carousel, Its not just a noise and air pollution for the animals, but also corrupts the scientific
integrity of a zoo, a zoo is a museum, not just an art musum but an
institutions that works with beings that should be met with a certain
respect, that I feel is just not compatible with theme park rides. I do
not care about the argument that more people would visit the parks,
neither have I seen that tampa would have ever gotten to my attention the way san diego london frankfurt did nor do I think that the visitors would have even interacted in any way with the animals the way they would do a bit better at an actual professional institution. The atmoshphere harms the wellbeing of the animals when they are treated in a sphere where they are placed and perveived rather as gimmeck than

I do not know what I should think of concerts at zoos because I have no impression of how these activities affect the animals.
 
Call out kobenhavn for that. Among the worst parks I have ever come
across. These projects were expensive waste space and money to create
wannabe futuristic exhibitions that are way too small. But Artis oh my
goodness that elephant park when all of us knew that they would need the
money and space desperately to keep the ability to adapt to modern
times. That was playing poker and they lost, the money and time and
reputation. Or their jaguar and lion enclosure, the later got opened
just a few days ago. Sure would I often prefer an enclosure that would
blend in with the enviorment to create the illusion of their wild
habitat but if the space is limited one has no other option than going
for a netted aviary to max the space the lions could use.

Call out muenster for being an example of a zoo with limited space
wrecking down a broad complex of structures to place a shape that does
not seem to be the best fit for the space loosing space around the hall
that could have been used to maximize the enclosure sizes.

Call out harderwijk for failing to establish the first ever proper large
diverse rescue and educational center for marine mammals. They could
have had the best harbour porpoise rehabilation lake.

Call out zoom erlebniswelt for not switching to the endangered stellers
sealion just because they can not worked with in presentation shows like
their close californian relative. The tank was originaly designed for
walrus.

Call out unoriginal signage designs. A zoo sign is not just basic
information but often felt to me like a bussiness card that would tell
me about the profesionality of their approach toward the matter. I can
tell that artis and burgers zoo for most take themself and their job
serious, they put dedication into the design to make it engaging. Not
refering to incomplete signages because that should be called out.

Call out the incomplete educational state of society. Some animals are
sourced from the wild and that can be ok in some cases, why are all
people only arguing in extremes.
Call out the disfunctionality of these fake pc politics. I think the
public should be smart enough to interact with the whole complexity of
the matter for once, like that sometimes for a conservation programme
some specimens would need

Just because one specimen of a species did not cope well does not mean
the entire species could not cope with captivity as much as one specimen
being able to cope does not equate to the whole species being capable
doing so. Its

Call out the enourmous lack of studies on the diverse range of the
animal kingdom both in the wild and in captivity. I am not saying that
some condition would be acceptable until proven wrong, but that we
should also not jump to the fals conclusion that all zoos should be
closed because some species or even just some specimen did not cope
well. Its not the animals fault the phrasing made it sound a bit like
that but it was not what meant. Its complex sometimes an animal cope
unexpectedly well with circumstances I thought of as unacceptable other
times everything appeared ethicaly to me at first but later turned out
to be still not

I would have wanted to hear about the concept I felt people had but did
not dare to voice out loud, We want to keep as many species as possible
not unconditionaly but I think its a part of human nature that we want
to collect as much as possible, nobody seemed to disagree that the
enclosures must become significantly larger and more stimulating. Why is
it a holding onto what was now or never getting the chance to keep this
or that species ever again.

Call out generalisations. Call out overly emotionaly statements in an
empathetic manner. Too often have I heard people talk for an animal when
they would not know if they would perceive everything the same way a
human would or even sometimes other people. Lets take into concideration
that people are different, that individuals of the same species have
different character.
Call out other institutions for mismanaging their animals. It can happen
once or twice but then a line needs to be drawn and this has happened
too often in too many parks. Instead of keeping several couples of one
species they keep only one couple of several species.

Like the mismanagement of populations. There could be and would have
been more species in the care if the populations would have been managed
a bit better. I see over and over that there are several single
individuals of a species left at different parks, and none of them makes
the effort to manage the population. Get all of the remaining to one
park so they could potentialy contribute to a breeding programme or at
least live together with companions of their species. Lets not lie the
they are too old to travel is sometimes used as an excuse for failed
management.
 
I also feel like a zoo that does not create proper representation of an existing ecological region its just lazy and even harmfull for the educational aspect of the park. I do not care if the general public would think the african savanna would be one either way, the standard of science has never be defined by the broad public. If you go to a zoo, you should not just be provided the possibility to properly educate yourself but also show respect to the matter and interact with the
exhibition.

I miss transperancy, I expect such professional scientific institutions to work with public on managing the matter. Be entirely open about the challenges they face both keeping and breeding but also sourcing the animals, not just from the wild but publicaly adressing how politics can mean serious damage to conservation programmes and regulation not always properly protecting the habitat and species since its often sadly only the officials that stick to the rules and illegal poaching still taking place. Brexit seems to disable not just the also the functionality of conservation programmes but also the management of less endangered species that could still serve the purpose of education. In this case the zoos should dare to speak up, minding the attention does not help the matter, education and conservation as well as recreation are still very much needed no matter how much some groups try to boycott the proper conversation in the first place. Their intentions are not bad but partialy misguided. Its a stressfull world these days.

This might be more controversial but I have been in many zoos growing up where I asked zoo keepers or even official educators questions that might have been a bit more specific than the average visitors question but the way I got treated was just off. They either lied with a confidence that buffled me or sorta tried to get back at me for exposing that they did not know the answer. Its ok to not know these things, but neither are lying nor even lashing out.

Another point that I found unfair was that both critics but also zoos themself rotated mainly if not even exclusively around the concept of conservation, instead of also recognizing of the importance of zoos as museum or space of recreation. Its selfspeaking that the animals welfare must never be compromised ever, but some arguments of critics feel so one dimensional like claiming that a child playing at the zoo would have learned that conservation would not be a serious matter.

Conservation has become undeniably one of the main pillars of zoological institutions, but neither should it be the zoos responsibility to be the one and rather only adress for this matter nor should it be the only definition of the zoos themself.

Conservation is important to probably all people, especialy us enthusiasts, but nobody goes to the zoo so they could get the twenty euros to finance the conservation programme, but because we want to recreate. So we should create zoos that make the most of that aspect that draws people in, and demand the politics to take care of conservation so that the zoos have something to work with instead of being forced to be ten things at the very same time.

It should not be a question I would need to personaly have to find out what species should be kept. What would be a waste of resources and better invested in the husbandry of another species. What species would actualy suffer from ex situ programmes.

Call keeping the standards so low. The zoos might not be able to meet them any time soon but every reality starts of with an ideal and I feel like our concepts were either too fantastical and unrealistic or too conform with working the present state.

Call out yourself sometimes. We need to be self critical as community both enthusiasts and professionals alike. Thats not an invetation to use me as a target, just saying because I brought things up in a manner that I feel might attract some irritation.

This is a bit idealistic but not entirly impossible. I believe in equality for people all over the world including education and experience. This is sometimes easier in certain places than in others but generaly would i support that round about most species would be present in parks all over the world, so that nobody would need to travel longer distances to see species that have almost gain a sort of cult status not just within the community but even general public.

Call out gate keeping animals and plants should not be made an political instrument to impose status or create interest in people visiting the place themself. Tourism increased that much on the galapagos islands that it shifted from funding the conservation project to threatening the archipelagos fauna and flora. Some things are rather unfair like that europe america and asia have the resources to find and maintain breeding programmes for species that oceania sadly could not on that level of diversity, they have less parks therefor less funding from both goverment and entry fees the very same time they have one of the richest and rarest fauna and flora on this planet, that they could need help with to preserve what would mean that it would make sense to allow the export of some of the specimens to europe and america even asia. What would mean that not just oceania would get less exotic species but would also give away some of their unique fauna and flora, of course not in the case of threatening their survival. Ethicaly do I absolutelj understand the concept of if we can not have these you can not have the few things we have have that you do not, but sometimes did I get the impression that both australia and new zealand might not be able to protect all the species. I mean its still an idealism to say keep some of the exotic and we take care of some of the natives as well so you would not have to take care of the conservation programme all by yourself.

As of now I feel unable to tell what species might not be possible to keep in captivity even with enlarged enclosures and improofed condition. Would I want to say goodbye to lions, no but if they would suffer in some form or another that I felt was more challenging that the wild would have been. My ideal concept is that zoos would work together to create a pattern (since no singlee zoo could keep all species) that would maximize the diversity within the smaller region while ensuring the sustainibility with a larger amount of contributors to a breeding programme. An example lets say smaller countries have on average five larger parks and larger countries have on average five larger zoos within the different regions within their larger area, instead of concentrating all kordofan giraffes in one country or region I would advocate for the five different parks to find a pattern where no zoos that are the closest to one another keep the same species, not always but mostly.

The following statement is just my personal opinion and I am fully aware that it might be wrong and idealistic and that I could change my mind over time but I personaly would chose to keep a species in human care even when they could never ever be released back into the wild again because their natural habitat would be destroyed and could never be recontructed ever again. Eventhough I have to note that this is a rather theoretical concept, I do think that they have a right to exist, but also serve a purpose as educational specimen, as long as they do not suffer in any way in captivity. Not in relation to contemplation of the question if the resources could have been invested in a species that would have the chance to survive. Essential for me is that in the end the programme is working long term even if it meant sarcificing one of
the two.

When I think of the future of zoos I always envision much bigger and better structurised parks. I see species that were previously kept but disappeared due to mismanagement and external condition, that could not be fixed all at the same time and therefor an intermediate phase with much lesser species was given. We finaly have optimized zoos that keep track of every single species kept, that have much better educational exhibitions. One thing I hope to become more of a common enclosure design is the multi dimensional lay out, where the complex the animals live in is build around the winding paths, that allow separation and rotation. One example for these tho still as a not so elaborate version is odense, with their manatee house and their tiger enclosure, that offer several different angles, in case of the later two views from above one from a tower one from the top of the stone cave platteau, two side views one with a small trench with a car droven into, and the tunnel that would allow to feel closer but also allows the tigers to roam above the visitors space. Those tunnel zurich currently plans and that philadelphia made famous are probably practical, but look awfull and can not in my opinion not compensate for proper enclosure design. I hope I could go to a zoo for once an have the feeling that things are taken care of at least in one smaller corner withing this giant chaos, because too often I felt as if the park was neither able to take care of the some of the species themself nor the others as community. I want to be able to say ah thats cologne they ensure that this and that species can maintain it self in captivity of course also support the in situ programmes but once again this should be stemmed by independent conservation organistations and they also keep this species that another parks properly manages. I want to see in depth exhibitions with skelletons and taxidermy with models with dioramas with interactive simulators i want to be able to get all the information on the species and the park and their history with one another even the very specimens that were and are kept and bred, and I do not think that I should go to the natural history museum for this. Both serve two different purposes the natural history museum can display much more specimens within the same space as the zoo, but when I am at the zoo i want to be able to dive into the specific collection, I mean every museum and zoo has a different composition, is not this the very reason we want to attent
different institutions.

I am sorry that its such a mass of a mess, it could have been probably several independent threads where I should have elaborated the different elements more in depth, but for me they felt so intertwined that I just could not decide how split these things into different entries. Hope that I would neither get attacked nor just ignored just because I would always be so all over the place. Maybe this forum is not the places for this idk. Thanks to everybody who reas this.
 
First of all do I want to thank @Jurek7 for the kind words. Generaly am I always very grateful for all the empathy, even at times where my mental health would not allow me to come back on the plattform to react in time.

Once again do I want to apologise for not adressing any potential reactios, I wanted to add one or two things I originaly intended to mention in my previous post but happened to forget. Afterwards I think I might need to distance myself from all of this for some time be gain the ability to sort everything out, but I needed to get these things off my chest, it was simply too much that was going on on my mind. I know this is neither complete nor resolved, but its a state I could only further work with when I would grant it this time, space and attention. As much as I wanted to present something properly processed I could not tell so far. Do not mean to be abstract, its the best I could do right now.

Call out wuppertal for sticking to the plan to force a bonobo male breed with a group of females whose leader has made more than clear repeatedly that the male is not going to be accepted by them. Its one thing to misread the animals signal interactin through a fence, but forcing an animal to go through such harassment for such a long period of times is just unacceptable. No animal should be forced to stay with specimens that they do not get along with. No matter the reason. Neither their rarity nor lack of space could justify this. I also found that I have not made clear enough that I find it absolutely unacceptable to force animals to be touched by visitors or taken pictures with. Animals should only be allowed to be kept by people and parties that have proven that they take the entire matter serious enough to take care of the animals on the specimens and species level, to prevent animals from being used as status symbol.

Right now I feel a bit of a frustration what state society and zoos happened to be in the time I happened to find myself in (short and long term). I do not want to shot into all directions, but I felt as if the entire discussion around zoos was just unfair on both sides, too stagnant and I just want everybody to come back together and find a balance at least for me personaly. Zoos always used to be a place of recreation for me but now feel so many things. I think nobody realy disagrees with the statement that a lot of things need to be changed, but I hope zoos as much as people are given the chance to correct their mistakes and are given the second chance it need to start over again. I do not find it fair that some critics want to close down all zoos just because mistakes were made and the current situation not being what it could and should have been. But I hope that I am allowed to experience better times for the zoos the animals and all of society. Sometimes things just do not work out, we must always analyse the reason behind the failed attempts, but I think that neither should we give up trying after one or two attempts nor simply brush what has happened off. Maybe it was not possible at the time, maybe it could never realy work but I would prefer things to be less extreme less definite. I hope balance will be achieved and proper professionality, efficiency and sense.
 
In regards to the current situation did I also want to add that if possible animals should not be given to or held in areas with an increased risk of them becoming a casualty in a natural or political catastrophy.
 
Back
Top