The future of the Javan rhino

DavidBrown said:
Doesn't the evidence from the Sumatran rhino captive program suggest that it might not work at all for the Javan rhinos? One of the major criticisms of the Sumatran rhino program at its beginning was that some individuals were killed in the process of being captured. Is there any margin of error that would make that acceptable for the Javan rhinos?

You're completely right though about it being desperation time. The California condors were in the same predicament. A major difference was that all of the condors in the wild were known and being followed, so pulling them out of the wild was possible and relatively straightforward. There were some individuals in captivity already, so the basic husbandry had been worked out. It's true that the Javan rhinos are evolutionarily close to the Indian rhino, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their husbandry would follow the same path...
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The failure of the Sumatran Rhino programme probably makes all discussion of captive breeding for Javan academic. But two points need to be added into the mix; firstly, as a number of people have suggested, Ujung Kulon's dense forest may well not be optimal habitat anyway. And secondly, it is in sited in an area of legendary geological instability. A tsunami (entirely plausible so close to Krakatoa) might be the deathblow to the species.

Whether zoos, either in Indonesia or elsewhere are used, in an ideal world a second population, well away from Ujung Kulon needs establishing. Whether that ideal world exists is a very moot point indeed...
 
As observed previously, the second habitat is under consideration / in the planning stages ..

For all good purposes: captive-breeding Sumatran rhino style is out of the question.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
As observed previously, the second habitat is under consideration / in the planning stages ..

For all good purposes: captive-breeding Sumatran rhino style is out of the question.
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Just an aside: I'd argue that the tragedy is that zoos in Europe and North America seemed to lose interest in Sumatran Rhino in the early 20th century.

London kept two specimens for over 20 years: "Begum" (1872-1900) and "Jackson" (1886-1910); it makes me weep that they seem not to have tried to run them together. At any rate, the basic husbandry needs of the species were being dealt with competently over a century ago. Really, that should have been built on.
 
IanRRobinson said:
At any rate, the basic husbandry needs of the species were being dealt with competently over a century ago. Really, that should have been built on.
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Given the problems they had in the USA more recently with getting some of the imported animals to feed properly, I wonder how they managed so long ago at London? Possibly the animals were imported young and so more amenable to changing their diet? Otherwise you would have expected the same sort of problems. Evidently no Iron Storage disease either.
 
Pertinax said:
Given the problems they had in the USA more recently with getting some of the imported animals to feed properly, I wonder how they managed so long ago at London? Possibly the animals were imported young and so more amenable to changing their diet? Otherwise you would have expected the same sort of problems. Evidently no Iron Storage disease either.
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Both of these animals belonged to the now-extinct subspecies Dicerorhinus sumatrensis lasiotis. It could well be that lasiotis was more amenable to a captive situation when compared with the two extant subspecies.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
It could well be that lasiotis was more amenable to a captive situation when compared with the two extant subspecies.
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TLD- I don't for a minute think that would be the case- they all came from similar tropical jungles into temperate captive environments. Maybe they spent a longer time in captivity before leaving the tropics though but they would still have had to adjust to new diets/climate etc in Europe (as some of the US ones seemed to have problems doing). But evidently London did something right, in order to acclimatise/keep them so long successfully.
 
......Javan Rhino

Judging by the longevity of some of its occupants, I have a feeling that the old London Zoo Elephant House (demolished between the wars) was probably a very good Elephant (& rhino) house. Not up to 21st century standards, but two reasonable sized yards with bathing pools. I would love to know what it was like inside -- seen plenty of pictures of the outside, thanks to John Edwards's book.
 
FBBird said:
Judging by the longevity of some of its occupants, I have a feeling that the old London Zoo Elephant House (demolished between the wars) was probably a very good Elephant (& rhino) house. Not up to 21st century standards, but two reasonable sized yards with bathing pools. I would love to know what it was like inside -- seen plenty of pictures of the outside, thanks to John Edwards's book.
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The most recent edition of this book includes a photograph of the interior of this building too....
 
......Javan Rhino

Does it support my idea? Is the book (not seen it) sufficiently different from the first edition to make it worth getting?
 
FBBird said:
Does it support my idea? Is the book (not seen it) sufficiently different from the first edition to make it worth getting?
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Yes, the two editions are sufficiently different to make it worthwhile owning both; the second edition is highly recommended.

(In addition to having more photographs the newer version has the advantage of having hard covers.)
 
IanRRobinson said:
London kept two specimens for over 20 years: "Begum" (1872-1900) and "Jackson" (1886-1910)
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“Begum”, of course, was the type specimen of Dicerorhinus sumatrensis lasiotis.

Incidentally, I think that “Jackson” is the mounted Sumatran rhinoceros displayed in the Bristol Museum.

TeaLovingDave said:
It could well be that lasiotis was more amenable to a captive situation .....
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Yes, given that the two London Zoo Sumatran rhinos that lived the longest were both lasiotis, I have often wondered if that is the case too. However, I suspect that it is probably just a coincidence and, of course, these two instances are not enough to be statistically significant.

Pertinax said:
Maybe they spent a longer time in captivity before leaving the tropics ......
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This is a very valid point. Indeed; “Begum” was in captivity for more than four years before reaching London Zoo. Similarly "Jackson" was kept in Calcutta Zoo for two years before being sent to London Zoo.
 
Tim May said:
Incidentally, I think that “Jackson” is the mounted Sumatran rhinoceros displayed in the Bristol Museum.
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Sadly that whole wing of the Bristol Museum was closed when I visited during the weekend of Zoohistorica, so I have yet to see the treasures within.
 
Tim May said:
“Begum”, of course, was the type specimen of Dicerorhinus sumatrensis lasiotis.

Incidentally, I think that “Jackson” is the mounted Sumatran rhinoceros displayed in the Bristol Museum.



Yes, given that the two London Zoo Sumatran rhinos that lived the longest were both lasiotis, I have often wondered if that is the case too. However, I suspect that it is probably just a coincidence and, of course, these two instances are not enough to be statistically significant.



This is a very valid point. Indeed; “Begum” was in captivity for more than four years before reaching London Zoo. Similarly "Jackson" was kept in Calcutta Zoo for two years before being sent to London Zoo.
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Do we have a similar history for Javan rhino kept at ZSL? I'm aware of one instance of misidentification with a GOH rhino.
 
Tim May said:
This is a very valid point. Indeed; “Begum” was in captivity for more than four years before reaching London Zoo. Similarly "Jackson" was kept in Calcutta Zoo for two years before being sent to London Zoo.
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Ah! I wonder how long the rhinos that went to the USA(and to PL) were held before being transported. I'll bet it was nothing like that length of time, more likely just a few weeks or months.;)
 
Tim May said:
ncidentally, I think that “Jackson” is the mounted Sumatran rhinoceros displayed in the Bristol Museum.
I believe from memory the horns of both are very similar(very long/overgrown like Torgamba's at PL were) indicating one and the same animal. And there couldn't have been many other specimens available anyway.
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Tim May said:
Incidentally, I think that “Jackson” is the mounted Sumatran rhinoceros displayed in the Bristol Museum.
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Pertinax said:
I believe from memory the horns of both are very similar…….And there couldn't have been many other specimens available anyway.
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Indeed comparing photos of “Jackson” at London Zoo with the mounted specimen in Bristol there are very remarkable similarities between the two.

Moreover, the Annual Report of the "Bristol Museum and Art Gallery" for 1911 includes the following:

Mr. R. I. Pocock, of the London Zoological Gardens, enabled the Museum to acquire the body of a Sumatran Rhinoceros, which has been set up by Gerrard & Son, and is now on exhibition.

Although this doesn’t specifically identify the animal as “Jackson”, given that the rhino was acquired through Pocock (the Superintendent of London Zoo) the year after "Jackson" died, it does seem highly probable it is this specimen.

Pocock cannot have had access to many Sumatran rhinos.
 
I've got to get back to that museum when the animal wing is open; it's liable to be the only Sumatran Rhino I will ever see ;)
 
You say that, but in my experience museums are moving more and more of their mounted specimens off-display on account of them not being politically correct, too morbid or not "inclusive" enough - both the Hancock Museum in Newcastle and the Yorkshire Museum in York have been utterly gutted in recent years.
 
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