The Sleepy Hippo
Well-Known Member
Or a structure like the Great Flight Aviary could be built along the long path from the end of Treetops to exit of the circuit. It's a decent length path with little going on.
The Future of Zoos Victoria 2024 (Speculation/Fantasy)
- Thread starter Zoofan15
- Start date
Great idea, but I don't believe there's enough space there for even a small aviary. You have the gorilla exhibit and Lemur complex bordering the right side of the path, and the tigers on the left.
The Sleepy Hippo
Well-Known Member
If it were built that the gorilla viewing spaces on that side were all within the aviary, with it abutting the gorilla enclosure I do think there is space. GFA is only 10m wide.
But you are right - it may not have the space
But you are right - it may not have the space
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It would be really great if Melbourne could expand their gorilla facilities to accomodate bachelor males bred in the troop. Long gone are the days any males born in zoos went into breeding troops; and the trend over the last three decades of males easily being placed into bachelor troops are dwindling - regionally and internationally.
Werribee have the three males which are settled in their bachelor troop and likely wouldn’t accept newcomers, so a second bachelor troop to accomodate a younger cohort would be great. Two new females would give Melbourne a troop of 1.4, with three females perhaps allowed two young each over the next decade. Six infants would presumably yield 2-4 males (though the more females the better!)
The Great Flight Aviary has to be wider than 10 meters!
In all seriousness, the tiger exhibit pretty much backs onto the path that runs behind the gorilla enclosure. You can see the back wall if you really look closely through the foliage. So in reality, they really only have the path and a small amount of space beside it.
I was considering the region’s gorilla population with regards to Melbourne’s holdings and imo, even if Taronga were to phase out gorillas, it would be unlikely Taronga’s females (Frala and Mbeli) would go to Melbourne.
While demographically, it would be ideal for Kibale and his three sons to transition into a bachelor troop; I feel like his genetic value (over Otana and Kisane) would over ride this - with Kibale remaining a breeding male. The ideal is that Taronga would retain a breeding troop assuming nobody else in the region is interested in doing so.
The fact remains Melbourne needs more females; and so too do the Taronga and Mogo troops (albeit less urgently). One option could be for Melbourne, Taronga and Mogo to each import an additional female; with Kanzi remaining in Melbourne’s troop as a non-breeding female. Her close relationship to Mbeli/Kipenzi makes transferring her to Taronga/Mogo to breed rather redundant and could arguably be detrimental to transfer into a new troop with no intention of breeding.
New females, while initially disadvantaged by their lack of social standing, would have the opportunity to progress via breeding. There’s countless examples of adolescent females transferring into established troops alone, including Kishka at Jersey; and the National Zoo’s current breeding female, Calaya, who joined a male and mother/daughter dyad.
While demographically, it would be ideal for Kibale and his three sons to transition into a bachelor troop; I feel like his genetic value (over Otana and Kisane) would over ride this - with Kibale remaining a breeding male. The ideal is that Taronga would retain a breeding troop assuming nobody else in the region is interested in doing so.
The fact remains Melbourne needs more females; and so too do the Taronga and Mogo troops (albeit less urgently). One option could be for Melbourne, Taronga and Mogo to each import an additional female; with Kanzi remaining in Melbourne’s troop as a non-breeding female. Her close relationship to Mbeli/Kipenzi makes transferring her to Taronga/Mogo to breed rather redundant and could arguably be detrimental to transfer into a new troop with no intention of breeding.
New females, while initially disadvantaged by their lack of social standing, would have the opportunity to progress via breeding. There’s countless examples of adolescent females transferring into established troops alone, including Kishka at Jersey; and the National Zoo’s current breeding female, Calaya, who joined a male and mother/daughter dyad.
ReturnOfPaddyRick
Well-Known Member
I actually saw hutan through the fence there last timeThe Great Flight Aviary has to be wider than 10 meters!
In all seriousness, the tiger exhibit pretty much backs onto the path that runs behind the gorilla enclosure. You can see the back wall if you really look closely through the foliage. So in reality, they really only have the path and a small amount of space beside it.
The Sleepy Hippo
Well-Known Member
Definitely wide enough for an elongated aviary like the GFA 
Very similar width between Gorillas and back of Hutans enclosure
Very similar width between Gorillas and back of Hutans enclosure
Jaguar are a massive loss to the region. Had we retained them, they’d surely be the stars of South American precincts across the region.
Australasian zoos seem to have a fluctuating interest in Maned wolf. A number of the main zoos have phased them out and Zoos Victoria’s species criteria precludes them from returning.
That Aussie Guy
Well-Known Member
That is disappointing that we can't just decide whether to keep them or not (but fluctuating interest is better than a phase out, so I'll take it)
Also, forgive me for asking, but what is the ZV Species Criteria?
Zoos Victoria have outlined their species criteria as follows:
Recovery - threatened species recovery programme, preferably reintroduced to the wild.
Ark - species under threat of extinction in the wild and part of regional and international breeding programmes.
Ambassador - the face of a conservation campaign.
Enabling - species that engage with people and form emotional bonds.
Research - species that support the research of Zoos Victoria for the improvement of animal welfare.
Osedax
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't Maned Wolves fit the 'Ark' category?
They're near threatened so not a species considered under threat of extinction and there really is not regional breeding program for them anymore (outside of Altina).
The greater surprise is that Maned wolf wasn’t considered enabling to suffice the original requirement to fit into one category. What’s not enabling about a fox on stilts?!
Species now must fit a minimum of TWO categories.
Depending on what agency you go by, overall the ICUN considers them near threatened but many of there home countries consider them threatened and they have a downward population tree. They theoretically fit the Ark better then the giraffe, dingoes and meerkat.
They can also fit ambassador and recovery. They are part of the face of wildlife habitat restoration in the areas they inhabit, they also come from threatened habitats that are constantly under threat like the pantanal. They also are the only ones in there taxonomic group.
Theoretically they could be worked in better then some other species.
The Sleepy Hippo
Well-Known Member
I think that Gorilla Rainforest should be reconfigured, retaining Lemur and Gorilla exhibit, but replacing the Treetop Monkey enclosures with a second Gorilla exhibit, and overhauling the Pygmy hippo and "Mandrill" exhibits with 3 display and an off display enclosure for Pygmy hippos, with each on display enclosure being cohabitted with an African monkey species. A new Gorilla BoH could be built between the two Gorilla exhibits, and the area where the existing BoH is could be redeveloped as walk through aviary, or a Colobus Monkey or Mandrill exhibit that could house a small troop of either. This would give the area a nice finish, rather than just the long path with the opposite side of Gorillas.
I would then like to see a new modern Treetop Monkey style precinct either going through Growing Wild, or potentially better matching would be to use a section of TOTE for this, linking in with an expanded Orangutan/Siamang area.
I would then like to see a new modern Treetop Monkey style precinct either going through Growing Wild, or potentially better matching would be to use a section of TOTE for this, linking in with an expanded Orangutan/Siamang area.
ReturnOfPaddyRick
Well-Known Member
Imo instead of a second gorilla exhibit, it should be something like a walkthrough colobus habitat, elevated to potentially hold Pygmy hippo below. The mandrill and prior Pygmy hippo exhibits could then be combined to hold something larger, something like a bongo would be preferable, but a large mandrill troop would also be great
I very much agree here. An additional gorilla enclosure and gorilla building, potentially with an indoor enclosure too would definitely do wonders and would provide Melbourne with the opportunity to hold a bachelor group alongside their breeding group which would allow Werribee to potentially look into another species perhaps more better suitable to their theming.
Space wise there probably isn't much space for both (an additional enclosure and building), but if they were combined to make an indoor building/house with an enclosure to rotate the troops, it could work.
I do think birds are vastly unrepresented in both the GR and TOTE, so an aviary in the place of the previous BOH facilities would be nice.
If they really have nothing for the elephant replacements than why not construct a new Treetop Monkey precinct there. It's a better use space wise and would indeed provide a nice section leading up to the Orangutan/Saimangs.
This is a great idea. I would also combine this with phasing out Black and white ruffed lemur for Red ruffed lemur.
The Gorilla Rainforest remains a world class complex, but the construction of an additional supporting exhibit and overhaul/renewal of the dens would further enhance its capacity to manage a breeding troop and a bachelor troop. Initially this bachelor exhibit could accommodate the Werribee males, with long term plans for male infants bred in Otana’s troop to take their place.
Melbourne reportedly intends to import a female Pygmy hippopotamus, so your ideal of redeveloping Treetop Monkeys ties in well with this. They could build multiple exhibits to accomodate a breeding pair (or trio) and their offspring, though demand may allow prompt transferring out of the offspring.
The theoretical phase out of gorillas from Werribee (also suggested by @Jambo) would vacate their exhibit for the most obvious replacement - Melbourne’s Hamadryas baboon troop. There’s countless options what they could do with their exhibit in turn at Melbourne, but a Black-handed spider monkey colony is one idea considering they’ll be phased out of Treetops. This would tie in nicely with Brazilian tapir being housed in tapir/peccary row.
I like the idea of having the Spider Monkeys in the former baboon enclosure; it would be even better if they could share the enclosure with a species like Mara who could make use of the ground area. Or even an extension of the Tapir complex if they wish to have more space.