The Lion industry in South Africa

vogelcommando said:
Big bussiness :( :

Born captive: A survey of the lion breeding, keeping and hunting industries in South Africa
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Yes. I attended a lecture an this subject at my school.

It is very grim. If you are interested, there was a Photo story about it in the Wildlife Photographer of the Year here Lion guardians .

Added complications include volunteers raising the cubs after being told that they are going to be released back into the wild, when in fact they are going to be shot inside a tiny enclosure by a man who has paid thousands (for the lion's head) with a rifle. It is truly cruel. On the other hand, some might argue that it is generating money for conservation. However, this is what I say to these invalid arguments: Very little of the money goes to the conservation efforts, but most goes to the canned hunting facility, and also a living animal cannot be replaced by money - it isn't like you can generate a lion cub out of nowhere with $100. It is the cruellest form of exploitation and human cruelty.
 
@amur leopard I don't agree with canned hunting, but I think whether it is the cruellest form of exploitation and human cruelty is highly debatable.
Also, general speaking you can generate animals with money; this being the basis of modern agriculture.
 
FunkyGibbon said:
I think whether it is the cruellest form of exploitation and human cruelty is highly debatable.
Also, general speaking you can generate animals with money; this being the basis of modern agriculture.
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OK, firstly, the first one may have been slightly exaggerated :)

But I absolutely stand by my second point. If I have a pride of lions in the Mara, I cannot just give money to someone and then they will automatically give birth like they are a warren of rabbits! It is only because of the nature of cows that calves are born every year to fuel the dairy industry, not because we pump endless swathes of money into the farms. Sure, it might increase the chance of reproduction, but people cannot in any way force the birth of a wild animal with money as their only tool.
 
amur leopard said:
OK, firstly, the first one may have been slightly exaggerated :)

But I absolutely stand by my second point. If I have a pride of lions in the Mara, I cannot just give money to someone and then they will automatically give birth like they are a warren of rabbits! It is only because of the nature of cows that calves are born every year to fuel the dairy industry, not because we pump endless swathes of money into the farms. Sure, it might increase the chance of reproduction, but people cannot in any way force the birth of a wild animal with money as their only tool.
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Captive lions are notorious to breed almost like rabbits, even in inadequate circumstances. Zoos like Leipzig and Burgers' Zoo were lion factories with literally thousands of lions born in the first decades of the 20th century in these 2 zoos alone. So your argument is moot, if you have the money to create the right circumstances you can produce many more lions per year than for example cows....

This is beside the fact that I agree that this has nothing to do with conservation and I find this kind of canned hunting quite ridiculous as it misses many of the reasons that make hunting exciting for most people.
 
lintworm said:
Captive lions are notorious to breed almost like rabbits, even in inadequate circumstances. Zoos like Leipzig and Burgers' Zoo were lion factories with literally thousands of lions born in the first decades of the 20th century in these 2 zoos alone. So your argument is moot, if you have the money to create the right circumstances you can produce many more lions per year than for example cows....

This is beside the fact that I agree that this has nothing to do with conservation and I find this kind of canned hunting quite ridiculous as it misses many of the reasons that make hunting exciting for most people.
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I was not talking about captive lions. I was talking about conservation groups which work with lions in the wild and in this situation, there is no correlation between how much money is donated to them and the number of cubs they have a year. The focus of these groups is to help pre-existing lions to survive against poachers as opposed to producing lion cubs.
 
amur leopard said:
I was not talking about captive lions. I was talking about conservation groups which work with lions in the wild and in this situation, there is no correlation between how much money is donated to them and the number of cubs they have a year. The focus of these groups is to help pre-existing lions to survive against poachers as opposed to producing lion cubs.
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In the context of canned hunting that is the topic here and to what you replied to above we are talking captive lions though....
 
amur leopard said:
Added complications include volunteers raising the cubs after being told that they are going to be released back into the wild, when in fact they are going to be shot inside a tiny enclosure by a man who has paid thousands (for the lion's head) with a rifle. It is truly cruel. On the other hand, some might argue that it is generating money for conservation. However, this is what I say to these invalid arguments: Very little of the money goes to the conservation efforts, but most goes to the canned hunting facility, and also a living animal cannot be replaced by money - it isn't like you can generate a lion cub out of nowhere with $100. It is the cruellest form of exploitation and human cruelty.
Click to expand...

lintworm said:
In the context of canned hunting that is the topic here and to what you replied to above we are talking captive lions though....
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When I first said that 'a living animal cannot be replaced by money, I mentioned conservation efforts in the wild beforehand, so I was referring to wild individuals.

Further proof that money cannot buy animal specimens, even in captive populations are the Northern White Rhinos and the Yangtze River turtles btw
 
amur leopard said:
Further proof that money cannot buy animal specimens, even in captive populations are the Northern White Rhinos and the Yangtze River turtles btw
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That's not proof, it's evidence. Counter evidence that money can buy animal specimens: pet shops exist.
 
Sad, but restricting import of trophies from these farms simply resulted in farmed lions being euthanized as unprofitable or bred for bones.

The main problem is that wild lions in Africa go extinct. Lion farms are controversial and highly visible, but essentially a separate issue, arguing over which does not solve issues like poisoning wild lions, removing their natural prey etc.

It would be sad and immoral if wild lions in Africa would go extinct because conservation attention was switched to 'moral' fighting with lion farms.
 
This is actually a very controversial policy guided by animal rights propaganda. The policy will see over 8000 captive lions euthanized. The apprentently have no conservation value. This policy will also prevent export of these species.

Captive lions provide a reservoir of genetics and can be used for potential reintroduction. Remember the problem with wild lion is space, there is no space and no plans to expand areas to accommodate viable wild populations.

Finally the vast majority of stuff published on South African predator breeding farms is not representative of the industry but rather of a few bad apples. This is largely animal rights propaganda. South Africa has strict and well regulated environmental laws. This Industry is very well regulated . Canned lion hunting is illegal , captive bred hunting of lion is legal provided the animal has lived as a wild lion for a few years. Most lion farmers have excellent facilities and very high standards of welfare and genetic management.

There are always 2 sides to a story often both are not considered unfortunately
 
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Syringa Wildlife said:
This is actually a very controversial policy guided by animal rights propaganda. (...)

Finally the vast majority of stuff published on South African predator breeding farms is not representative of the industry but rather of a few bad apples. This is largely animal rights propaganda.
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I became wary when somebody pops up saying that terrible things happen at the other end of the world and I absolutely must save it. Too often it is propaganda looking for well-meaning and naive people.

Apparently, last year, some activists went to the city council of Basel, Switzerland, asking to recognize human rights of apes. Somebody level-headed answered that the city of Basel keeps no apes and sees itself not qualified in the matter of apes. Sure, it was an attempt to cook something backdoors, because the activists would be kicked out by anybody qualified in the matter. But it is amazing how often such tactic still works.
 
Syringa Wildlife said:
Captive lions provide a reservoir of genetics and can be used for potential reintroduction. Remember the problem with wild lion is space, there is no space and no plans to expand areas to accommodate viable wild populations.
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Useful only if the population is correctly genetically managed. Captive populations are often inbred to produce desirable characteristics, for instance bigger manes, "white" lions etc.

Your second point is very valid. If the captive and wild populations were to managed as meta populations this make the species more secure.
 
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