Taronga Zoo The next elephant birth

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jay

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Well we are just getting over the excitement of the elephant birth at Melbourne and shortly we will have another.
Porntip, at Taronga, is due sometime in March. This will be the third elephant calf to be born in Australia, Tarongas second, Bong Sus' (Father) second calf and Porntips first (3,2,1, I like that).
Now that we have had a calf of each gender born, what would think would be better another male or another female?
Some of my thoughts on this question are.
1. The more females the better as we need more females than males for the breeding program.
2. Another female would provide a second unrelated future mate for Luk Chai.
3. All the females that have provided the founder base need to to have their female lines represented in the next generation.
4. This also applies for the males and so Bong Su needs a son
5. Hopefully the zoos will keep mothers and daughters together so another female will take up permanent space at Taronga so a male might be better so that it could be sent away to another zoo in 8 or so years.

Any thoughts on the idea?
 
i guess at this early stage - it doesn't much matter. however given the zoos heavy use of AI - which seems so heavily skewed in favour of males, the more females the better.

it also puts more stress on the elephant exhibit long term, forcing a speedier resolution on the issue of space (or lack thereof) in urban zoos. and the sooner i prove to you all that i was right - and that taronga and melbourne will be forced to show that they can't cope with a breeding herd of elephants - the better!

(i wish there was an evil laugh emoticon)
 
phoenix said:
i guess at this early stage - it doesn't much matter. however given the zoos heavy use of AI - which seems so heavily skewed in favour of males, the more females the better.


I agree with you here more females are needed
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yep, I also believe more females are needed, but like mentioned more males seemed to be produced with A.I so we'll hold on and see! Since Park Boon was a natural mating I say that's the best chance of being a female.
 
I am just wondering WHO will be first with the scoop about the third birth?, Any ideas on that one Jay????
 
I myself would like to see a young bull imported from Emmen zoo (zoo bred)who is sired by the mighty Bull Radza, another bloodline for the future breeding of the young cows being bred at this time and in the near future, I think they have a number of excess sons of Radza, it would be another option for the breeding Aussie program.

IF New Zealand do get a breeding program off the ground so much the better for both countrys with even more animals to mix and match for the breeding program over time.

My other hope is that Perth zoo do get into the program at some stage as more zoos within Aust holding breeding animals is all the better for the program.
 
All we elephant lovers just adore radza! I would like to see one of his offspring here as well but its probably highly unlikely. Myo Set Kaung is coming of age and he and Letsonmon will probably be moved together. ( A lot of Naing Thein's offspring are just being held at Sevilla as bachelor group)


I think the main issue with the perth breeding program, is that Putra and Permai have too much of a "brother, sister" relationship. As I've written on another thread Perth zoo staff have seen to two mating, but as in the wild many young bulls will practice mounting on their close relatives but not actually mate purposely. I think perhaps Gung might need to be introduced to Permai one day and Putra could be introduced to one of the females at Taronga.
 
There needs to be at least two more male bloodlines introduced, though there is heaps of time. Withing a month or two we will know if Bong Su has a son or another daughter. I'll be watching.:D
 
jay said:
Withing a month or two we will know if Bong Su has a son or another daughter. I'll be watching.:D
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Why did they AI the female at Taronga from the Melbourne bull. Did they do more than one female and was it because they thought the Taronga bull was too young?:confused:
 
pertinax - i think it has to do with this theory of sperm competitiveness between different donors - that if a female is inseminated with the sperm of more than one bull - there is a higher chance of a success.

she was probably inseminated with both gung and bong su's - but bong su - being allegedly the most fertile bull in the zoo world - won.

i know they have also imported semen from a singapore bull and unsuccessfully attmpted AI with it (i think with the perth cow) - and might very well try doing so again in the future. its an easy way of introducing new bloodlines.
 
phoenix said:
i know they have also imported semen from a singapore bull and unsuccessfully attmpted AI with it (i think with the perth cow) - and might very well try doing so again in the future. its an easy way of introducing new bloodlines.
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The import of semen from Singapore is most likely a complete waste of money, because no western zoo has ever been sucessful with frozen semen. Elephant semen is very fragile and doesn`t respond well to freezing. The vets from Germany have done a lot of research, but after what I know the results still leave a lot to desire. The current status is that elephant semen needs to be as fresh as possible to have a realistic chance for a pregnancy.
 
Yassa said:
The import of semen from Singapore is most likely a complete waste of money, because no western zoo has ever been sucessful with frozen semen. Elephant semen is very fragile and doesn`t respond well to freezing. The vets from Germany have done a lot of research, but after what I know the results still leave a lot to desire. The current status is that elephant semen needs to be as fresh as possible to have a realistic chance for a pregnancy.
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Maybe chilled semen might be better I think the bull (EM) at Whipsnade was used to AI a cow (EM) in a zoo in Israel resulting in a calf
 
dragon(ele)nerd said:
All we elephant lovers just adore radza! I would like to see one of his offspring here as well but its probably highly unlikely. Myo Set Kaung is coming of age and he and Letsonmon will probably be moved together. ( A lot of Naing Thein's offspring are just being held at Sevilla as bachelor group)


I think the main issue with the perth breeding program, is that Putra and Permai have too much of a "brother, sister" relationship. As I've written on another thread Perth zoo staff have seen to two mating, but as in the wild many young bulls will practice mounting on their close relatives but not actually mate purposely. I think perhaps Gung might need to be introduced to Permai one day and Putra could be introduced to one of the females at Taronga.
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Perhaps a swap of females between the 2 collections. I do indeed get the impression the relationship is more or less platonic. The bull was previously signed off as fertile.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
Perhaps a swap of females between the 2 collections. I do indeed get the impression the relationship is more or less platonic. The bull was previously signed off as fertile.
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the problem with a swap is this - perth's female is bonded to a rather elderly cow and its not going to be in either animals interest to be split. to move permai would mean moving tricia - and its worth remembering that perth is so far away from the australian east coast that this is no close move. its a long, long way and a big ordeal. so if one was to explore the "swap" option - you'd probably want to move bulls instead.

i find that too unlikely right now. both taronga and melbourne still have one more cow they need to breed - num-oi at melbourne (who has just turned breeding age) and another who's name evade me at taronga (which if i am correct is almost 20 and needs to be bred just as urgently as perths cow). since both these zoos have only just recently got their new elephants and since both zoos have proven fertile bulls - i very much doubt they will be willing to split with ANY of their elephants. be them bulls or otherwise.

i actually think we are quick to jump the gun and claim animals have a platonic brother-sister relationship. perths animals have mated. melbournes bong su had tried many times with kappah - another apparent "sibling" relationship. the thing is bong su was no better at mating with dokoon or kulab - not that the girls didn't try their best to get him to. i think the issue more that being captive tends to make bulls overly docile. they don't seem to know what to do. but sometimes, they just don't get it quite to work or it's just bad timing. i know human couples that have tried for years (despite both being given the all clear and more than enough attempts) and others that make one little drunken slip up........

why would we think it any different for elephants.

anyhow, i guess what i think is, that being so many variables and whats best for ALL the elephants to keep in mind - perth is best to just keep trying their hardest with teh options available - natural mating and AI. no doubt dr hildebrand will be back on our shores soon - there is plenty of work still to be done and all 3 zoos.
 
Tang mo at taronga is the one yet to be succesfully mated but she is 11 or around 20.
 
It is with great sadness that I report that the calf has died. Refer to the zoos website for more information
 
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