Taronga Zoo The next elephant birth

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from the footage i saw, yeah. the keeper tried to keep his head above water by grabbing his trunk, but the cows were straight in!

whilst we all know how smart elephants are - its nonetheless actually quite amazing to see a human and two elephants all panic at the same time and leap to his aid.

check it out on either of the fairfax online sites.
 
phoenix said:
from the footage i saw, yeah. the keeper tried to keep his head above water by grabbing his trunk, but the cows were straight in!

whilst we all know how smart elephants are - its nonetheless actually quite amazing to see a human and two elephants all panic at the same time and leap to his aid.

check it out on either of the fairfax online sites.
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Thanks for that Phoenix, I saw the video, It was amazing to see "the girls" leap into action, I feel the same as you about the deep pool, is there another yard where they can keep them outside the barn with out the risk to the calf?
 
from my knowledge both taronga enclosures have. deep moat style pools.

and i'm not showing off but i did recently think about this when the melbourne calf was born. i correctly assumed the zoo would be keeping mali in either of the two paddocks there that have only shallow pools. which they were. i imagine it will be some time before she is introduced to the center exhibit with the deep pool.

whilst i do think that the much larger deep pool at taronga is a very nice addition and that it is superior to melbourne's deep pool - the sydney exhibit was very poorly designed by comparison and offers little flexibility of management in the event of calfs, bulls or aggressive or sick elephants.

i'm pretty sure melbourne even has (admittedly small) off-display outdoor areas for its animals.
 
pshhhh..,,,.........,,, .... leave the names like Sean for Dogs.

Although they could be given an anglo-saxon name as a Nick-name. Much like Oregon's calf Samudra or Sam.

I myself was born in Australia, although my parents in Malaysia. I Have both an English and Chinese name.
 
I agree with Dragon. My Dingo has an aboriginal name - Narra (for shows) and Winnie at home. although I'm not sure how how you could angloise (I know that's not a real word) many of the suggested names taronga has.
 
Ironically, neither "Sean" nor "Emily" are really "English" names. "Sean" is about as Irish as you can get, and "Emily" is an anglicised form of the Latin "Aemilia", which came into England via France.

Imre is obviously struggling for copy this week.
 
CGSwans said:
Ironically, neither "Sean" nor "Emily" are really "English" names. "Sean" is about as Irish as you can get, and "Emily" is an anglicised form of the Latin "Aemilia", which came into England via France.

Imre is obviously struggling for copy this week.
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It reminds me of when the Scottish parliment were debating whether or not to support Scottish Gaelic as a language to be taught in schools. One notorius anti gaelic member got up and said something along the lines of "gaelic is a dead language, what's the gaelic for macaroni, cafe and pizza" Another member got up and asked him "what's the english?":D
 
Phoenix, please ignore the following information as you know everything. It is a astonishing that the zoos do not consult you on your expert advice. For all others who may want some correct information:

1. The elephant barn at Taronga Zoo does have rubberized floors. I have walked on them myself and they are similar to what you would find in a playground.

2. Taronga does have a separate enclosure with a shallow pool. It is the one with the waterfall and where keepers go into the water with the elephants to give then a "Thai-style" bath in warmer weather.

3. Elephant calves know how to swim. They cross rivers when they are only days old.

4. Luk Chai also ended up in big moat several times. Each time the elephants and the keepers showed him the exit point. This is all part of normal exploration and learning. Once the calf figures out the exit points, the adults are no longer worried. Luk Chai now goes swimming in the big moat by himself, and the females barely take notice. These are not stupid animals.

5. Taronga also has an outdoor area without a pool.

6. Taronga keepers do not carry knives and do not use electric cattle prods.

7. Taronga has housed all of its females together since they arrived. Keepers have focused on establishing positive herd dynamics, and prepearing the entire herd for calves, not just the expectant mother. Taronga had all of its elephants introduced successfully to Luk Chai in 2 weeks and to my knowlege the new calf in well underway to being integrated into the herd.

Making comparisons between Melbourne and Sydney is very childish and shows insecurity, especially when you do not know all the facts. I have asked some of the Taronga keepers what they think of all the inaccuracies being said about them and they said they would rather be in a good elephant program and have people talk bad about them, then be in a bad elephant program and have people say good things about it.

I understand there will always be people who will want something to fail to make themselves feel superior. But to avoid looking like a fool, please get your facts straight and have an honest look at you are embracing. We see what we want to see.
 
ahem.

i'm at work. i do not have the time to give this fantastic post the response it deserves.

i'll be back...
 
Now, now, realdeal, don't be nasty; there are lots of good things about Melbourne in comparison to Sydney; for a start, it's flatter; and also, er......, well it's flatter.......

(Just stirrin'):D
 
okay!!

sorry guys, had a few things to do. thanks for being patient.

so here goes....

dear real deal,

your comment 1-7 don't really concern me. however like i said - from my knowledge taronga does not have an outside area without a deep pool. i never said it as fact that it didn't. however please feel free to inform us where this "pool free" enclosure is. also i'd be interested to know why, if the deep pool is so safe for week old calves, the keeper looked so concerned when the calf fell in.

but if what you say is true - then i must admit that i find it rather amusing that the keepers have such faith in their newborn calves innate swimming abilities but not their abilities to stand up!

now for your last comments.

realdeal said:
Making comparisons between Melbourne and Sydney is very childish and shows insecurity, especially when you do not know all the facts.
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um, people have been comparing the two cities for generations. i do it all the time. in fact there is a facebook group called "melbourne is better than sydney" that has to date 86,318 members. pretty amazing huh? *sigh* humans, and their comparisons... i know, i know. its childish and insecure...

realdeal said:
I have asked some of the Taronga keepers what they think of all the inaccuracies being said about them...
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next time your there could you do me a favour and ask them to work on their pronunciation. last time i was at taronga the elephant keeper doing the presentation kept saying "oshtrawya" instead of australia. it was like nails down a chalkboard for me. i think that if they are going to be interacting with the public more it'd be good if they worked on thinning their accent a little. with all those international tourists there - it was kinda embarrassing.

realdeal said:
I understand there will always be people who will want something to fail to make themselves feel superior. But to avoid looking like a fool, please get your facts straight and have an honest look at you are embracing. We see what we want to see.
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well i see a pretty tiny little exhibit in the middle of a city that is completely inappropriate a place to keep a growing herd of elephants. if the concept of failure is for the exhibit to no longer fulfill the requirements of the herd then i'd say you'd better start contemplating what failure is going to feel like. taronga zoo already has three more male elephants than it originally set out to house when it designed that enclosure and its only going to take a couple more births, regardless of their sex, before suddenly the PR department starts arguing the "unimportance" of bonded family herds.

good luck with that. i'll be laughing my arse off when lee rhiannon turns up again with her megaphone.

tell your zookeeper mates i said not to worry what a bunch of non-industry folk on the internet think anyways. just be glad that they have themselves, and the greater public fooled that what they get up for each morning is contributing immensely to the fight to save the asian elephant from extinction. just mind that baby doesn't fall in the moat again, for a moment there, it looked a little scary.


kind regards,

phoenix
 
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Phoenix while I don't entirely disagree with what you said there was one thing that pissed me off a little and that was your go at the "keepers having the public fooled" this to me was an attack on the keepers. They are just doing their job, and doing it pretty well. If you want to accuse someone of fooling the public ( and I'm keeping my opinions on this to myself) then you should be aiming higher then the keepers. It wasn't the keepers idea to import the elephants in the first place. If the keepers were solely respinsible for exhibit design things would be much different. Look to management with those kind of comments.

Don't get me wrong I do agree with some of your comments.
 
Phoenix while I don't entirely disagree with what you said there was one thing that pissed me off a little and that was your go at the "keepers having the public fooled" this to me was an attack on the keepers. They are just doing their job, and doing it pretty well. If you want to accuse someone of fooling the public ( and I'm keeping my opinions on this to myself) then you should be aiming higher then the keepers. It wasn't the keepers idea to import the elephants in the first place. If the keepers were solely respinsible for exhibit design things would be much different. Look to management with those kind of comments.

Don't get me wrong I do agree with some of your comments.
 
In terms of breeding, does the zoo intend to breed Pornthip and the others again?
The two male calves, should by rights stay witht he herd till they are about 10 years old. Elephants can breed every four years. For the breeding program to be properly successful each cow needs to have at least two young, more if possible. However will either Taronga or Melbourne have the room for the cows to have any more calves. Taronga at least seems to have taken the decision to stop breeding for the moment as they don't seem to be in a hurry to get the remaining cow pregnant.
I Think Phoenix is right, in a few years we'll start hearing about how it is ok to seperate the bonded females.
 
The top paddock that contains the deep moat is only half of the exhibit. If you bother to walk around the entire precint you will see the other half, although much of it is only visible if you are in the overhead cable car. I assume this allows the elephants some privacy if they wish. You can also see the small outdoor enclosure (without a pool) attached to the barn from the cable car.

What? You mean the zoos can't just keep breeding elephants and cramming them in the current enclosures? I bet they never thought of that and have not had several strategic planning meetings over the years to address this. I'll pass on your concerns and make sure they keep you personally in the loop.

The calf was born in a weakened state. For 3 hours he was on his side, too weak to get up. When keepers found him they used some sort of sling to help support him (I think there is video on the Taronga website). His whole left side was compromised. I understand it was about 12 hours before the calf could stand upright on his own. This calf would have died in the wild. Were keepers wrong to have interfered? Should they have let nature take its course?

Whilst some people take perverse pleasure in assuming there is some sort of rivalry or competition between Melbourne Zoo and Taronga Zoo, I can tell you this is false. Without giving myself away, I am often positioned near the barn viewing window during the elephant's shower time. There are usually 2 keepers available to talk to the public and answer questions. I have heard the keepers come to Melbourne's defense during the abuse scandal, and they professionally handled questions regarding concerns over the Dokoon TV birth special (use of restraints, cattle prod). They also celebrated and shared the news of Melbourne's first elephant calf with the public. I think this is really cool. It shows that the zoos are working together towards a common goal. I only have one contact in Melbourne Zoo, but he has never heard anything negative towards Taronga either.

But then again, this is reality and it seems that some people on this website prefer the unknown so that they can make their own negative assumptions. Oh my god! That's it isn't it? The less you know, the more you can comment on it and make yourself seem important and knowlegeable. This website has become a fantasy game for some, a way to pretend they are in the zoo business when clearly they are unqualified to be. I guess that is why ZooPeeps is now the network venue zoo professionals choose to share information.
 
realdeal said:
But then again, this is reality and it seems that some people on this website prefer the unknown so that they can make their own negative assumptions. Oh my god! That's it isn't it? The less you know, the more you can comment on it and make yourself seem important and knowlegeable. This website has become a fantasy game for some, a way to pretend they are in the zoo business when clearly they are unqualified to be. I guess that is why ZooPeeps is now the network venue zoo professionals choose to share information.
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So what are you saying, that non zoo people cannot criticize what they see happening? If that is the case then you have completely lost my support for any of your arguements. BTW your sarcasm is not warrented.
So what is the stategy for the future of elephants at Taronga and Melbourne? Especially if more male calves are born. Will they have to split the females up. If in a few years I hear that that is what is to happen then I think I would be joining Lee Rhiannon in her condemnation of the Zoo.
 
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