The Role of Zoos in Society - Zoology or Conservation?

But, in almost all cases, the result has been that I feel like I have been talking to walls.

Same impression I get from reading your posts...

Others agree in principle, but say like most do in this forum, that what I want is not practical, workable, or feasible.
Food for (your) thought...

I have studied zoology,(...)

That's the problem with the anonymity of the Internet: anyone can claim to be anything, without feasible evidence. Just citing a definition doesn't convince me.
 
Yes, seriously, that is what I believe, because now in many cases, it is either business people in charge, or business people in charge of marketing, or business people called in as consultants to help figure out what to do to save the zoo.

If you don't want animals to become extinct, you have to provide humans with as many opportunities as possible to be in the presence of, and to focus on, and to develop an emotional connection with, real live animals -without any distractions.

Yet not actually tell them how to help if they are so moved?

I don't think I'm even going to understand your viewpoint and I am still not convinced that you studied zoology to a higher level and so I'll just back out now. In my opinion it's crazy to focus on such a tiny field as just classification and physiology and ignore all of the interrelated aspects of animal science. I can't see any arguments for doing so and I would get very bored of visiting a zoo that does. This whole thread makes no sense to me.
 
Food for (your) thought...
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I think it should be obvious that I have given this a lot of thought.


That's the problem with the anonymity of the Internet: anyone can claim to be anything, without feasible evidence. Just citing a definition doesn't convince me
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I have not claimed to be anything other than a lifelong zoo advocate, zoo member, and zoo visitor.

The definition was not being cited to convince you of anything. It was simply to clarify exactly what I believe zoos should teach.


I have stated that I studied zoology, which I did, in college. I also studied astronomy, biology, botany, chemistry, geology, and physics. Every elective I chose was a science course.

But I don't think any of that is relevant to this discussion. I am communicating here simply as a zoo visitor who believes zoos should stay focused on zoology - in the same way I believe observatories and planetariums that are open to the public should stay focused on astronomy, and that arboretums and gardens should stay focused on botany.
 
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Yet not actually tell them how to help if they are so moved?
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No, not actually tell them anything. That part is the job of all the other institutions that don't have live animals as their teaching resources.

First give visitors the opportunity to develop an emotional bond with animals, then guide them to the learning resources that are available in libraries, in schools, on television, in documentaries, and so many other places.
.[/QUOTE]

I don't think I'm even going to understand your viewpoint and I am still not convinced that you studied zoology to a higher level and so I'll just back out now. In my opinion it's crazy to focus on such a tiny field as just classification and physiology and ignore all of the interrelated aspects of animal science. I can't see any arguments for doing so and I would get very bored of visiting a zoo that does. This whole thread makes no sense to me.

Thank you for at least trying to understand. I am not sure I understand clearly exactly what you are disagreeing with, either. But I do appreciate the comments you have made.
 
Well, you obviously didn't adjust your thoughts to zoo reality, in particular not to the social, financial and administrative side of it. If a criterion (in this case, the money aspect) is mentioned again and again independently by different people (especially by those who know their stuff) it should make you think that there might be more than just some truth in it...

Funny enough, you animadvert the multi discipline approach to zoos, but list all the college science courses you took. Judging on what you wrote here so far, one can only wonder whether your basic education in all of them was as shallow & quixotic as your understanding of "zoology" and the history & role of zoos in modern society. And let's hope you're not also explaining astronomists, biologists, botanists, chemists, geologists, and physicists how things in their field of work should be done...Ever thought of telling the people in charge of botanical gardens to get rid of all the pretty, popular flower beds and just focus on "botany" instead?

An "emotional" bond with wild animals usually ends in injuries, sickness and even deaths on both human and animal side, most negative over-emotional anthropomorphic fallacy (in sharp contrast to the aspired solely scientific approach) and the merry mutual exchange of zoonoses.

Direct sensory contact with animals in a zoo is indeed a key feature in zoos, but should be controlled and well-monitored-and certainly isn't recommendable for most zoo species (feeling a "loving" bear hug by a polar bear might be your very last experience...)
Zooplantman already added a nice cartoon-I think this one is equally fitting:
http://www.wissen.de/wde/generator/...e/schlumpf_brainy_100806390,property=zoom.jpg

BTW: wasn't my previous post not interesting enough for another row of quotations? ;)
 
Well, you obviously didn't adjust your thoughts to zoo reality, in particular not to the social, financial and administrative side of it. If a criterion (in this case, the money aspect) is mentioned again and again independently by different people (especially by those who know their stuff) it should make you think that there might be more than just some truth in it...

If the ones who say my simple approach won't work were successful using their approach, you would be 100% right. But the fact is, zoos still seem to be struggling with the money aspect. And the unfortunate result of that seems to be that many now seem to be thinking their only solution is to transform into something like an environmental center. Which really isn't a solution at all, is it?


Funny enough, you animadvert the multi discipline approach to zoos, but list all the college science courses you took. Judging on what you wrote here so far, one can only wonder whether your basic education in all of them was as shallow & quixotic as your understanding of "zoology" and the history & role of zoos in modern society.
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I don't understand how this is relevant. Do I have to have a PhD in zoology to say what I want from zoos as a visitor (customer)?

The fact is, there are many zoo members and zoo visitors who agree with what I say. They go to zoos to see live animals and to learn fascinating facts about those animals. Are they less important than those customers who go to a zoo to be "entertained"?

From what I have observed, visitors do not focus on the conservation-related exhibits that zoos take so much time to set up. So it seems like the money, time, and effort spent on attempts to teach conservation could be better used to attempt teach something no other place has the resources to teach. And isn't it possible that some of those who come to the zoo to be entertained might be made to realize that learning zoology can be fascinating if they were given the opportunity to learn it instead of all those opportunities to learn conservation?


So exactly what is the objection to at least trying to do what I suggest?

And let's hope you're not also explaining astronomists, biologists, botanists, chemists, geologists, and physicists how things in their field of work should be done...
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There is no need to - they seem to be staying focused on presenting just their own particular subjects to visitors.

Ever thought of telling the people in charge of botanical gardens to get rid of all the pretty, popular flower beds and just focus on "botany" instead?
...

Why would I object to pretty popular flower beds in botanical gardens? I certainly don't.

But I definitely would object if those botanical gardens set up beds of artificial flowers surrounded by informational signs that are not directly related to botany, or if they tried to draw visitors' attention away from the beautiful real flowers to show them how much energy they can save by riding a bike instead of driving a car.


An "emotional" bond with wild animals usually ends in injuries, sickness and even deaths on both human and animal side, most negative over-emotional anthropomorphic fallacy (in sharp contrast to the aspired solely scientific approach) and the merry mutual exchange of zoonoses.

I object to the word "usually". I think that is just plain not true.


Direct sensory contact with animals in a zoo is indeed a key feature in zoos, but should be controlled and well-monitored-and certainly isn't recommendable for most zoo species (feeling a "loving" bear hug by a polar bear might be your very last experience...)

Visitors have more than one sense. Not every direct sensory contact has to involve touching. The important thing is to focus as many of the visitors' senses as possible on the individual animals in the zoo. (And that includes the sixth sense, too.)

If visitors are focused on seeing, hearing, and even smelling animals they have an opportunity to see again and again over periods of time, that should work very well to establish emotional bonds.
 
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Zooplantman already added a nice cartoon-I think this one is equally fitting:
http://www.wissen.de/wde/generator/...e/schlumpf_brainy_100806390,property=zoom.jpg
;)

Sometimes you have to risk having people think you are stupid, or a know-it-all, or all sorts of other things when you truly believe what you are saying is right.


BTW: wasn't my previous post not interesting enough for another row of quotations? ;)

I think all of your posts are interesting. Even if we don't ever agree at all, you are helping me to clarify my thoughts.
 
Not all zoos are financially struggling; in fact, especially the ones leaning to the entertainment side (Animal Kingdom, Hannover Zoo, Loro Parque...) are actually pretty profitable, while mere "collections" out of sync with modern zeitgeist (= like your "zoology only!" concept) are having a tough time to stay in the black.

Regarding the zoology PhD: it would give you a better scientific background, insight & knowledge and might help you understand several of the uttered objections; among others, in regard to your limited image of the term "zoology" and its importance for zoos.

The sensory perception of wild animals is one of the major entertainment factors in a zoo and the one that draws the public in. Only very few persons enter a zoo with the intention to learn something. If you take the general entertainment & recreation aspect away, you will end up with a much smaller audience-and unless you charge them exorbitant prices only an elite can afford, your income will shrink considerably.

So museums and botanical gardens "stay focused" on their subject? Oh really? That's why museums more and more turn into "interactive" playgrounds, planetariums include laser & music shows and botanical gardens become hosts of all kinds of "social events"? Just like zoos, they have to try a wider public approach to be at least partly in the black.

Why would you object pretty flowers in the botanical garden? For the same reason you object robot dinosaurs in zoos: because they are merely public-friendly entertainment and distract from pure scientific "botany". After all, many of our flowers are artifically bred forms and even hybrids-thus "artificial"...

I have experienced enough both privately and professionally on a daily base to know that uncontrolled & emotional animal-human contact all too often has the negative effects mentioned above.
About excluding touching; good luck with that. Even if they can smell & watch, people usually long for the haptic experience (must be our inner child/ape)-every fruit salesman or table dancer can tell you about how undisciplined folks can be even if touching is strictly prohibited. Same is true about zoos and animals/people-so the risk is always there.
If you want to engage your "sixth sense", go to Von Hagens' show and see dead animals...
"Emotional bonds" will aggravate the professional handling of the animals and nullify the scientific approach you demand.

Persons so fatuous of the truth and value of their ideals risk not only ridicule and scorn, but also the loss of correspondence to reality.
A lot of the worst crimes in human history have been permitted out of originally good intentions. So why shouldn't your concept be tried? Because it would fail miserably, on the expense of the animals and people involved.

If I had helped to clarify your thoughts, you wouldn't continue with this tomfoolery of yours...
 
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...If I had helped to clarify your thoughts, you wouldn't continue with this tomfoolery of yours...


It seems that unless I agree with you, you will consider me a fool.

But you have helped me clarify my thoughts while still being what you will call a fool. Here they are:

As a lifelong zoo visitor, I know what I want from a zoo. I want a zoo to be a place where I can go to learn all there is to know about well-cared for wild animals in a relaxed, peaceful, safe for animals, staff and visitors environment.

I do not want a zoo to try to teach me things I go to other places, like art museums, or other cultural institutions to learn.

I do not want a zoo to try to entertain me with music, or games or rides. Nor do I want my zoo membership dollars to go toward creating and designing those things for people who don't and never will love zoos like I do.

I don't want zoos catering to people or trying to draw in people who don't understand the value of zoos just to stay in the black.

I don't want the AZA to require zoos to do anything more than provide a safe, mentally and physically healthy home for as many animals as possible, a safe work environment for staff, and a safe, peaceful environment that is conducive to learning for visitors.

Just as I have been a loyal zoo advocate all these years, I want zoos to be loyal to supporters like me. I don't want zoos to abandon me or people like me just because we are not a market majority.

I don’t want zoos to downsize or phase out animals then use the “we’re doing what’s best for the animals” argument when longtime members and frequent visitors complain.

If zoos need help, they can ask us. There are many, many members who agree with me on this. And many, many non-administrative staff who agree with me on this.

Just don't ask us to help transform zoos into something other than zoos - which seems to be what is happening, right under our noses.
 
ZooVisitor, your latest posts are not helping your cause. In the face of opposition you have resorted to reaffirming and restating your belief in an extreme viewpoint, instead of supporting your arguments, or reaching for some kind of middle ground. In the process you are just moving some people’s views further away from your own.

When you wrote about Creatures of Habitat at the Philadelphia Zoo your positions seemed much more reasonable and less absolute than your opinions appear in this thread. If you were to analyze and reconsider other people’s posts on this thread you would find that people have stated that entertainment should not come at the expense of animal welfare at zoos. Jbnbsn99 discussed the need for a balance of education and entertainment. Instead of asking what that balance should be you seemed to resort to completely discounting entertainment ventures. Later on in this thread Sun Wukong and ZooPlantMan also made reference to this balance of education and entertainment by writing how zoological institutions that rely solely on education and research wouldn’t be financially stable. As they have questioned you further you have seemed to resort more and more to restating an absolute position that zoological institutions should concentrate solely on live animals.

Finally, you seem to think that zoology is the ultimate route by which people can connect to animals. Here you are discounting the diversity of ways that people come to appreciate nature. Some people connect to animals on an aesthetic/artistic level, others might find the politics surrounding animal conservation intriguing and engaging. Ultimately, these people may also come to appreciate animals from a zoological perspective (whatever constricted definition you wish to apply to that term). What’s so wrong about trying to engage different people through different means? So far, you have failed to provide us with evidence that this dilutes the effectiveness of connecting people to nature or animals at zoological institutions.

PS On previous occasions, I have made the mistake of presenting some of my views on this forum as being more extreme than they actually are.
 
ZooVisitor, your latest posts are not helping your cause. In the face of opposition you have resorted to reaffirming and restating your belief in an extreme viewpoint, instead of supporting your arguments, or reaching for some kind of middle ground. In the process you are just moving some people’s views further away from your own.
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I understand what you are saying.

However, this is something I feel so strongly about that I can't state my opinions any other way than the way I truly believe, and state them completely and honestly.

When you wrote about Creatures of Habitat at the Philadelphia Zoo your positions seemed much more reasonable and less absolute than your opinions appear in this thread.
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I have more facts now about the Zoo's plans for the future, and I know that PETA and other anti-zoo people support attractions like this in zoos, so I guess I have moved to a position of more extreme opposition.

If you were to analyze and reconsider other people’s posts on this thread you would find that people have stated that entertainment should not come at the expense of animal welfare at zoos. Jbnbsn99 discussed the need for a balance of education and entertainment. Instead of asking what that balance should be you seemed to resort to completely discounting entertainment ventures.
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I don't quite understand what I am saying that is wrong regarding this. I have said I believe observing and where possible interacting with animals in zoos is fun, exciting, thrilling, awe inspiring, and fascinating, so any entertaining events that focus visitors on the individual animals is fine.

I just don't want the entertainment (or the education) to be something that distracts visitors from observing or interacting with the actual live animals. For example, LEGO creatures, hot air balloons, musical concerts, puppet shows, or attractions designed to teach general conservation topics, like save gas by riding a bicycle or walking instead of driving, etc. [/quote]

Later on in this thread Sun Wukong and ZooPlantMan also made reference to this balance of education and entertainment by writing how zoological institutions that rely solely on education and research wouldn’t be financially stable. As they have questioned you further you have seemed to resort more and more to restating an absolute position that zoological institutions should concentrate solely on live animals.
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I suggested ways for achieving financial stability while still being just a zoo. But they were discounted by many here immediately, even though they really have not been tested in the current social/economical environment. No one seems to seriously want to try to succeed by being "just a zoo".

I don't want zoos to compete with other attractions or institutions by becoming more like them. I think that is the wrong direction to go, and even if that appears to work at first, it will fail in the long run for all who do that because visitors/customers will get tired of seeing the same kinds of things wherever they go. I think it would be much better business practice to focus on what makes each place unique.

Beyond that, the reason I love zoos is that they have what no other attraction, no other museum, and no other scientific or educational institution has: a great variety of wildlife. That is what I want everyone else to see and love, too. And, if I were a zoo director, that is how I would promote my zoo.

Finally, you seem to think that zoology is the ultimate route by which people can connect to animals. Here you are discounting the diversity of ways that people come to appreciate nature. Some people connect to animals on an aesthetic/artistic level, others might find the politics surrounding animal conservation intriguing and engaging. Ultimately, these people may also come to appreciate animals from a zoological perspective (whatever constricted definition you wish to apply to that term). What’s so wrong about trying to engage different people through different means?
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I may not have made this part of my opinion clear. I want zoos to provide visitors with opportunities to observe wildlife, to observe the fascinating variety of wildlife, and, where possible to interact with individual animals.

I guess you could compare this to the experience of a visitor to an art museum. Just let the visitor be in the presence of the art and interpret it however he or she chooses to from whatever perspective he or she is observing it.

Also, there are three problems with trying to engage different people through different means.

First, when you attempt to draw in people who don't already love animals with events that don't focus on the animals, you provide them with something to do while in the zoo that does not focus their attention on the animals. So there is no guarantee, or even much hope, that they will become wildlife enthusiasts or become wildlife advocates while at the Zoo.

Second, by including attractions or events that don't focus on the animals, you distract the visitors who might have originally come to see the animals, and might have developed interests in specific animals, and might have become wildlife enthusiasts as a result, if their attention had remained focused on the animals.

Third, you deprive visitors who are wildlife advocates and zoo enthusiasts of an opportunity to visit a place that is simply a zoo, which is what they want.

So far, you have failed to provide us with evidence that this dilutes the effectiveness of connecting people to nature or animals at zoological institutions.
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The evidence for me is simple. There are people who are zoo members, or who have visited zoos recently, who can look at scenes being broadcast showing the stranded, oil-covered wildlife in the Gulf Coast without crying.
 
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These are examples of what I want from a zoo:

At the Houston Zoo -

At the Elmwood Park Zoo in Norristown, PA:

Enrichment Extravaganza
May 29 & 30
11:00 a.m.- 3:00 p.m.
(Free with Zoo admission)
Join us for Elmwood Park Zoo's Spring Enrichment Extravaganza! Guests will get to enjoy scheduled enrichment with our Docents and Keepers along with interactive stations for the children such as "What Is Enrichment" demonstrating how the animals here at the zoo use the enrichment items and why it is beneficial for them.
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Both activities focus visitor attention on individual animals. If zoos want to do anything more than provide opportunities for visitors to observe wildlife in a safe, peaceful environment, these are wonderful examples of things zoos can do to inspire the kind of love of animals that will last a lifetime.

And activities and events like these will surely draw in enough visitors to keep a zoo in the black if they are actively promoted.
 
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I have found the replies from both Zoo Visitor and Sun Wokung both interesting and controdicting in both persons replies.
I for one see the role of zoos in todays society as one that needs to teach (yes teach) people about both animals and the enviroment that they inhabit.This can be done quite easily by housing the animals in enclosures that look like the habit that they inhabit and not an enclosure where you can see the animal from all angles.
Also zoos should make a more concerted effort to get to all local schools on regular times and take both animals and paper work for children to look and learn about both the biology and the enviroment of the animals they have just seen.
Educating the adults will be slightly harder as most zoos/parks are dettermind to educate the young so why not have information officers wandering around the zoo so people can stop and actually ask questions about the animals they have just seen people learn more from asking questions then reading notices.

Most zoos rarely mention that it's OURSELVES that are destroying thier enviroment they tend to blame big corporations or Goverments but if it wasn't for ourselves buying the products that require the big corporations to destroy the animals enviroment then there would be no need for this thread
 
Another example of a zoo doing what zoos should do and what zoos should be teaching visitors about (in my opinion):

Australian study finds crocodiles surf the seas | AP | 06/08/2010

excerpts:

"The research by a group of Australian ecologists published this week in the British Ecological Society's "Journal of Animal Ecology" explains how the world's largest living reptile came to occupy so many South Pacific islands despite having little stamina for swimming."

"The research began in 2002 in the tropics of Australia's Queensland state and involved environmentalist and television personality Steve Irwin, the so-called Crocodile Hunter who was killed by a stingray barb off Queensland in 2006."


"Zoologist Grahame Webb, an Australian crocodile expert independent of the study, welcomed the research as the first demonstration of how crocodiles use currents."
 
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