The stupid Norwegian reptile and amphibian keeping law

[Norwegian moose]

For some reason or another Norway is actually the only country in the world were it is bannned to have reptiles and amphibians as pets (although I think Iceland, New Zealand, an Hawai has a similar ban). It has been banned since 1975 (I think). The reason for that have not been specified from the government. Some say it is because they are dangerous. Some say it is due to their salmonela. And some say it is because they are to difficult to keep. But I think it is only beacuse the government do not like reptiles. I actually do not think that every reptile and amphibian can be hold as pets. I think very large snakes, venoumus snakes, monitors, and crocodiles should not be kept as pets. Or they should be kept only by very experienced reptile owners, that have a permission from the government. But I can not see why a leopard gecko, a bearded dragon, a cornsnake, a milksnake or a whites treefrog can not be hold as pets, when they are so easy to keep, that a ten year old boy can manage to do it. It is though actualy legal in Norway to keep greek landtortoises, if you are alergic, and have gotten a permission from the government. So every herptile is not banned in Norway, but almost every one, and not for every person. Also it stands in the law that it is illegal to keep exotic mammals as pets. So it is legal to keep a hamster as a pet, but not a common marmoset or a sugar glider. I also think that not every mammal species can be hold as pets either, (big cats, bears, larger primates, and so on). But I do not think it is unethical to keep a common marmoset, or a sugar glider as a pet, if it is correctly taken care of. Anyway now the norwegian department of food and agriculture will legalise ca 30 species of reptiles and amphibians. What do you think about this ? Answer the poll above, and discuss below if you have any opinions on this.

 

[Hix]

New Zealand and Hawaii have bans on snakes because their islands have no native snakes. They have many endemic bird species, some severely endangered, that could be exterminated by escaped snakes (just look at the damage done to the bird populations on Guam).



Hix

 

[Norwegian moose]

I did know this Hix, I just forgot to mention it in the text

 

[zooboy28]

This is very interesting Norwegian Moose, I did not know that Norway had a ban on pet reptiles and amphibians. It does seem very odd, especially as many herp species are relatively easy and safe to keep. I think it is good that Norway is legalising some herp pets, as there are probably many held illegally anyway. Can you provide a list of the now allowed species?

In New Zealand, all snakes are totally banned (even in zoos) but anyone can keep certain (common) species of exotic amphibians and reptiles, although the diversiy of available species is quite low (<20 species). No exotic mammals can be kept without a zoo license (we don't even have any common marmosets or sugar gliders in the country).

I agree that some reptiles should not be kept as pets, especially the larger and more dangerous ones. Having said that, some zoos keep their large snakes and crocodiles (including Bergen Akvariet in Norway, with a horrible crocodile exhibit) in poor conditions, so perhaps they should not be allowed to keep these species either?

 

[Norwegian moose]

Sorry zooboy 28, I wrote incorectly, no reptile and amphibian species are now legal to own. But the Norwegian department of food and agriculture are thinking of legalising ca 30 species of reptiles and amphibians in the near future. These 30 species will be rounded down to only ca 10 species that will be legal to own. But this will likely never happen, as they have said to do this the last 10 years, and nothing have happened. But beneth are the list of species that are considered to become legal to own by private individuals:

Snakes:
Cornsnake
California kingsnake
Green three pyton
Milksnake
Balpython
Boa constrictor
Amazon tree boa
Rainbow boa

Lizards:
Leopard gecko
Madagascar giant day gecko
Eyed dab lizard
Ocellated lizard
Bearded dragon
Blue tongued skink
Spiny tailed monitor
Veiled chameleon

Turtles and tortoises:
Greek landtortoise
Leopard tortoise
Red footed tortoise
Chinese pond turtle

Frogs and toads:
Argentine horned frog
African clawed frog
Oriental fire bellied toad
Whites treefrog
Amazon milk frog
Phantasmal poison frog

Salamanders and newts:
Japanese fire bellied newt
Fire salamander

 

[Norwegian moose]

I forgot two species:
Crested gecko and Panther chameleon

 

[Norwegian moose]

I do not think agree that the croccodile exhibits at The Aquarium in Bergen is horrible. (I know it because I have visited the aquarium many times before myself). The exhibits are certanly not ideal, they are a little to small, but they are certanly not horrible.

Anyway there are actually also a (stupid) ban on all zoological institustions in Norway. The few zoos and aquariums that opperates in Norway opperates on a very rare permission that are given from the government. All zoos and aquariums in Norway that holds reptiles have to count them for every new one thet get, and put it in to a register.

It is estimated that there are 100 000 illegal reptiles, and amphibians in Norway. If the police discoveres that, you will be given a fine, and most of the animals will be killed, only a lucky few of them ends up in zoos and aquariums, (like Jan the watermonitor at the aquarium in Bergen).

 

[Jana]

This is an interesting situation I haven´t known before. Considering the booming number of pet reptiles/amphibians elsewhere in Europe, the number of illegally owned ones in Norway must indeed be high.

 

[zooboy28]

I do not think agree that the croccodile exhibits at The Aquarium in Bergen is horrible. (I know it because I have visited the aquarium many times before myself). The exhibits are certanly not ideal, they are a little to small, but they are certanly not horrible.

Anyway there are actually also a (stupid) ban on all zoological institustions in Norway. The few zoos and aquariums that opperates in Norway opperates on a very rare permission that are given from the government. All zoos and aquariums in Norway that holds reptiles have to count them for every new one thet get, and put it in to a register.

It is estimated that there are 100 000 illegal reptiles, and amphibians in Norway. If the police discoveres that, you will be given a fine, and most of the animals will be killed, only a lucky few of them ends up in zoos and aquariums, (like Jan the watermonitor at the aquarium in Bergen).

I have also visited the Bergen Aquarium (just once) and I thought it was really quite bad - basically a room in a basement which was far too small. I think its probably the worst cocodilian exhibit I have ever seen (although there are certainly far worse ones out there).

But back to the topic at hand, I'm very surprised by the excessively strict laws concerning pets and zoos in Norway. Can you find out when and why this legislation was enacted? It does seem a bit draconian. I think they should legalise all those 30 species, as I can't think of a single good reason why they should not.

 

[Norwegian moose]

Quote Zooboy 28: But back to the topic at hand, I'm very surprised by the excessively strict laws concerning pets and zoos in Norway. Can you find out when and why this legislation was enacted? It does seem a bit draconian. I think they should legalise all those 30 species, as I can't think of a single good reason why they should not.

As I have written above, reptiles and amphibians was banned in 1975. The reason for that is not clear. But It can be because they just did not know enough about how to care for them then. Today we know more about that, and it is completely idiotic that we still have the ban.

I think we instead of legalise just a few species, should instead concentrate on banning, or say that you need a license for the species that are dangerous, and hard to keep. The species I mean are: very large snakes, venoumus snakes, monitors, and crocodilians. The reason why they only want to legalise 30 species can be because they do not want it to get of control. But I think it is better to ban or demand a licence for the dangerous and hard species, than to legalise only 30 well suited species

Also I think it is strange that while it is illegal to keep reptiles and amphibians in Norway, it is legal for everyone to buy a large parrot. And a parrot is very difficult to keep as pets, as they need a large cage or aviary, and are very demanding socially. I think that maybe 10 percent of all people can keep a macaw, amazon parrot, grey parrot or cockatiel sucsesfully. But I do not see that a parrot that are kept correctly, should be confiscated and killed either. But I have heard about someone in the government who says that they will make it illegal to keep parrots to.

Anyway back to reptiles. A couple of years ago a man was confiscated with a green iguana in his house. The iguana was in great condition, both mentally and physcaly, but the iguana still was killed right after it was confiscated. A totally unesceceray death in my opinion.

Also many people travel to Sweden every year and buy reptiles and amphibians there (were it is legal) and take them into Norway. I have heard histories of "reptile refugees" that moved to Sweden just because they want to have reptiles and amphibians. I have even heard about a Norwegian man in Sweden that have 70 reptiles

(Sorry if my english is weak)

 

[zooboy28]

Well hopefully they overturn the ban, although I'm not sure if legalising everything except the dangerous species you mention is the best idea, as it would probably be sensible to also prevent people keeping endangered species (especially those who are threatened directly by the pet trade). Perhaps it would be best to start be legalising the 30 common species, and then adding more species to that list over time.

Your English is actually very good, even better than some people on this site who only speak English!

 

[Norwegian moose]

Quote Zooboy 28: Well hopefully they overturn the ban, although I'm not sure if legalising everything except the dangerous species you mention is the best idea, as it would probably be sensible to also prevent people keeping endangered species (especially those who are threatened directly by the pet trade). Perhaps it would be best to start be legalising the 30 common species, and then adding more species to that list over time.

This can maybe be the right way to do it. I would rather like them to legalise 30 species, than to do not have any legal species at all. A thing I forgot to mention is that if you have for example a tortoise, that was born before the ban was taken in to efect, you can hold it legaly, withouth any further consecvenses. The ban only have an effect on reptiles and amphibians that was born after the ban came in to effect.

And thank you for praising my english skills. I am only 14 years old, so I have much English to learn still, but do not hesitate to correct my if I you see any mistakes.

 

[Shirokuma]

I read in the book 'Animal Gardens' that zoos were banned in Norway but was confused as I know there are a few zoos. Do you know the details of this legislation?

 

[Norwegian moose]

As I said over zoos and aquariums are banned in Norway. I also think that Norway is the only country in the world that have a ban like this. The few zoos and aquariums that opperates in the country; about 10 zoos, and 7 aquaria , have gotten a very rare licence from the government, otherwise all zoological institusons are banned.

 

[siamang27]

How do these few zoos get a permit? Are there certain standards that have to be met? I didn't know there were even that many zoos/aquariums in the country. I only ever knew of I think 2 zoos and 3-4 aquariums. There is to my knowledge only one large zoo in the country, which I have visited a few times in the past and they had quite a few reptiles in a room of the tropical house.
As far as the ban goes, I can understand it for certain species (dangerous and/or endangered), and for some parts of the world like islands where snakes can harm many native birds, but for Norway, I see no reason why someone cannot own a lizard, frog, small snake, turtle, etc, and I can understand why so many reptiles are being held illegally there. They would be better off to at least allow those mentioned species if nothing else, there is really no reason not to do so.

 

[Norwegian moose]

Quote: How do these few zoos get a permit? Are there certain standards that have to be met? I didn't know there were even that many zoos/aquariums in the country. I only ever knew of I think 2 zoos and 3-4 aquariums.

I do not know how in principle they get the permit, but aside from having good facilities for the animals, I have heard that all zoos need to have a veterinerian. Also the zoo in question must apply for individually the animals they want to hold, and if they are granted to hold that species, they are allowed to have it.

Going a bit of thread, here is a list of all the zoos and aquariums in Norway. I have divided it in to three categories: zoos with exotic animals, zoos with nordic animals, and aquariums. Many of the institusons are really small, and almost none are very interesting for the international audience. If you want to know about all the zoos in Scandinavia you can log in to the page: Vejen til helt vilde dyr, zoo, akvarium og meget mere - NordicZoos.dk

Zoos with exotic animals:

Kristiansand Zoo
Amadeusparken
Oslo reptilepark
Den Lille Dyrehage
Haugaland Zoo

Zoos with nordic animals:

Vassfaret bjørnepark (bearpark)
Langedrag naturpark
Namskogan familiepark
Polar Zoo

Aquariums:

Bergen Aquarium
Ålesund akvarium (atlanterhavsparken)
Risør akvarium
Drøbak akvarium
Polaria
Norsk villakssenter
Sognefjord akvarium
Lofotakvariet
Norsk skogsmuseum (a natural history museum, with an aquarium)

 

[Norwegian moose]

I have found out which 10 species (of the 30 species mentioned earlier in the text) that are going to be legal first, when and if the ban are overturned. When those ten species are legal to own, it will maybe be legal to own the other species on the list too. I found it on the webpages to The Norwegian Herpetological society.

The species are as follows

Cornsnake
Kingsnake
Kingpython
Carpet (diamond) python
Kingboa
Leopardgecko
Madagascar giant day gecko
Bearded dragon
Spinytailed monitor
Amazon milk frog

I think it is strange they do not have the milksnake on the list, as this is one of the most popular and easy to keep species. I also think it is strange they have relatively rare kept species such as the Spinytailed monitor on the list, and not some of the most common such as the milksnake. I guess it is because they want the list to have a bit of variety, and not only the most common species, and the list only have space for 10 species anyway. They have also said that they do not want that popular species such as green iguana and tigerpython should be on the list, because they are to large and dangerous. Species such as the red eared slider will not become legal because they have a risk for getting established in the wild as an invasive species. Anyway I think it is idiotic to only legalise 10 herp species, I think they should atleast legalise the 30 species in the original list.

 

[hedigerfan]

Just to present a contrary opinion: exotic pets, outside of intensively farmed animals, are probably the most abused and badly maintained group of animals in human care that there is. I fully recognise that there are specialist exotic animal keepers out there that do a wonderful job and, in particular with birds and cold blooded species, they would put many zoos to shame. But the vast majority of people who fancy a snake or a lizard as a pet will do an appaling job and the animal with have an abreviated life span or at best a poor quality of life.

One of the best pieces of legislation, although by no means perfect, concerning the private keeping of certain exotic animals is the UK's Dangerous Wild Animal Act. It does not stop private people owning the species on the list, you just have to prove that you are competant and have the facilities and back-up to manage your animals properly. I would certainly expand it to include most if not all exotics because to be absolutely frank, most people are not equiped or indeed interested enough to keep exotic animals well; in fact I think most people are not all that adept at keeping domestic pets.

This all may seem a tad draconian, but if we look at an extreme example, say pet big cats in the USA, I am sure that most on this forum would agree that the majority of the individuals concerned should not be given a dog license, never mind being allowed to keep a tiger they can let their friends' children play with, all in the name of personal freedom.

As for our young Norwegian friend's comment on thinking it is okay to have a marmoset as a pet, do yourself a favour and look carefully at the social and physical needs of primates and the current appalling situation with pet marmosets in the UK and the hell that most of them are put through by loving but completely ignorant owners. The intelligent comments you made about pet parrots also apply to primates.

One problem with my admitedly radical view is that I believe that kids do need exposure to animals and maybe classroom pets would be the way to go, to give the individual supervised experience in how they should be maintained, at least in the first instance. I had a range of wild species as pets when I was a kid, but I would have to admit that some did not fair well due to my lack of understanding of their needs.

 

[zooboy28]

I have found out which 10 species (of the 30 species mentioned earlier in the text) that are going to be legal first, when and if the ban are overturned. When those ten species are legal to own, it will maybe be legal to own the other species on the list too. I found it on the webpages to The Norwegian Herpetological society.

The species are as follows

Cornsnake
Kingsnake
Kingpython
Carpet (diamond) python
Kingboa
Leopardgecko
Madagascar giant day gecko
Bearded dragon
Spinytailed monitor
Amazon milk frog

I think it is strange they do not have the milksnake on the list, as this is one of the most popular and easy to keep species. I also think it is strange they have relatively rare kept species such as the Spinytailed monitor on the list, and not some of the most common such as the milksnake. I guess it is because they want the list to have a bit of variety, and not only the most common species, and the list only have space for 10 species anyway. They have also said that they do not want that popular species such as green iguana and tigerpython should be on the list, because they are to large and dangerous. Species such as the red eared slider will not become legal because they have a risk for getting established in the wild as an invasive species. Anyway I think it is idiotic to only legalise 10 herp species, I think they should atleast legalise the 30 species in the original list.

That is a bit of an unusual list, especially omitting Green Iguanas because they are dangerous (not really) and Red-eared Sliders because they are invasive (would they survive a Norwegian winter???). It does indeed seem unusual for them to have included a rare monitor, but that might be because the proponents of this law likely include groups like The Norwegian Herpetological society, whose members may be more interested in owning rare monitors than common turtles.

 

[Norwegian moose]

I personaly do not have anything against keeping marmosets as pets, if they are well cared for. Like in the parrot example, if 90 percent of people can not care for a marmoset correctly, you can not just say that the 10 percent of people that are able to care for them correctly, are not alowed to have them. I know they are hard to keep, one big problem with having them is that it is hard to give them the necesary vitamins they need, if I have readen correctly. Marmosets are the only group of primates I can ever think of being hold as pets, as all other primate species are either to dangerous, to large, or to hard to keep. Well I maybe be carfull to use the term pet here, as I would never call a wild animal a pet, but a wild animal kept by humans.

As to green iguanas and tiger pythons being kept as "pets", they are both large, and potentialy dangerous, as I have said before, and that is the reason why they are not on the positive list of reptiles and amphibians. About red eared sliders, they have actually found some eggs from a introduced slider in Norway, but I to have my doubts that they survive the winther, especially in the cold northern and middle regions of Norway.