ZSL London Zoo The Trouble with the Casson Pavillion...

I also remember the elephant bathtime and the black rhino. Iwas so crowded I often felt really sorry for the animals exhibited there. They had nowhere to just get out of the public eye for a moment. This was In 1998 when I visited for the second time and I can always clearly remember the tall, towering structure of the Casson Pavillion. Although its a bit ugly and doesn't suit the animals welfare needs idealy, it could still be a great museumof the London Zoos history or make an interesting rainforest primate exhibit. Not sure about Orangs but probably some langurs or bonobos.
 
Tim May said:
“The Rhinoceros in Captivity” (L. C. Rookmaaker, 1998) states that ‘Jasper’ was the father of ‘Rosie’.
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To the very best of my knowledge, 'Rosie' was from 'Bwana Mkubwa' x 'Mama Kidogo'- so I think this may be an error,- Jasper appeared to be infertile.
 
johnstoni said:
Well it sounds like they were more successful than I realised.

I think the animals that lived at Marwell died for reasons unconnected to where they were born.
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They had a 50% + loss of calves before they reached adulthood, that is not really acceptable but most of those that died did so after transfer to other zoos. I sometimes think they were weaned and sent away too young, which must have been traumatic for them as in the wild they stay with their mothers for a number of years.
 
Pertinax said:
To the very best of my knowledge, 'Rosie' was from 'Bwana Mkubwa' x 'Mama Kidogo'- so I think this may be an error,- Jasper appeared to be infertile.
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Pertinax,

Affirmative. :cool:

As for the 50% surviving into adulthood-rate. That in itself did not have much to do with the set-up a London Zoo. The adequacy of exhibits in the new environments was more than important and in these factors will have played a part in the demise of some blacks once transferred out of ZSL/RP or Whipsnade. I do feel nowadays we know just that little more re. black rhinos and will not make the same mistakes. In the UK there is certainly room for 2+ new black rhino holders (Bristol, .... et cetera)

Exhibit-wise: classic hard-standing exhibits are quite sufficient for black rhinos. Perhaps, the only down-side was more privacy and greater distance from the public.

Reverting to the design concept and new usage: I remain a fervent supporter of a E.Asian cum C.African rainforest hall. Most species are already on site and it would make a nice counterpart to the Invertebrates-Web of Life building across .......

K.B.
 
Pertinax said:
To the very best of my knowledge, 'Rosie' was from 'Bwana Mkubwa' x 'Mama Kidogo'- so I think this may be an error,- Jasper appeared to be infertile.
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Thank you for pointing this out.

Rookmaaker's book states that 'Rosie' was from 'Jasper' x 'June', so it would appear that he had both parents wrong.

I would normally double check such points in the ZSL Annual Report, but I've mislaid my copy for 1988.
 
Tim May said:
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Rookmaaker's book states that 'Rosie' was from 'Jasper' x 'June', so it would appear that he had both parents wrong.
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Definately wrong...;) It is a pity Jasper did not breed as his mother was Chester's w/c female 'Susie' who has no living descendants. Jasper mated with females at Port Lympne but no calves resulted and he died without issue.

'Rosie' is the full sister of 'KatiKati' their(B xM) last calf born after they transferred to Port Lympne. KK also spent time at Chester and is now in France.
 
I would support a South East Asian theme which (with the present set-up) could spread out to the komodo dragon house, the anoa paddock and across to the sumatran tigers.

Perhaps the tapirs and pygmy hippos could swap enclosures - obviously with some modifications perhaps the tapir could take over part or all of the camel enclosure too and if there is enough room some banteng could be added as has been suggested.

This would make Into Africa more consistant and the interior of the Pavillion could have Asian birds and small mammals and various displays about the wildlife and cultures of that part of the world. It wouldn't have to be an over the top rain forest hall, a lot could be done without too much money in my view with some creative planting, sound effects and artwork.

The current Zoo World branding is a bit naff in my view and comes across as trying to make something cool and exciting when there really is no need.
 
Pertinax said:
Definately wrong...;) It is a pity Jasper did not breed as his mother was Chester's w/c female 'Susie' who has no living descendants. Jasper mated with females at Port Lympne but no calves resulted and he died without issue.

'Rosie' is the full sister of 'KatiKati' their(B xM) last calf born after they transferred to Port Lympne. KK also spent time at Chester and is now in France.
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Thank you for supplying the correct information about Rosie’s parentage.

I was in the ZSL Library today, so I took the opportunity to consult the Black Rhinoceros Studbook. The information you provided about Rosie does, of course, agree with the details in the studbook. (Not that I doubted you anyway.)

Apologies for the erroneous information in my earlier post; I assumed that the details supplied in the (normally reliable) book “The Rhinoceros in Captivity” were accurate.
 
Riziki said:
Are ZSL members allowed access to the ZSL Library and to see the studbooks??
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Yes, Fellows of the Zoological Society are allowed to use the Zoological Society’s excellent library (and borrow books).

Unfortunately, the library is closed at weekends and evenings, so I need to take time off from work to use it.

NB Use of the library is not restricted to ZSL Fellows; others may use the library for reference purposes (but not to borrow books).

See the link below for details:-

Who can use the library
 
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With some of the ideas given here, I made this quick sketch the other day of how I would invisage a more gripping Casson Pavillion. It is based on the site plan given in The Buildings of London Zoo, though it was done quickly so not every feature of the building is to scale, but you should get the idea. Basically it's a South-East Asian themed exhibit (to link in with the new sumatran tiger exhibit if it's built on the current site nearby), and for a more gradual experience there is a wall built along the current supports in the public interior to create a s-shaped trail. The two former elephant stalls are a walk-in rainforest recreation for Livingstone's Flying Foxes and Birds and an indoor exhibit for Orangutans, the former rhino stalls are indoor accomodation for Banteng and Sun Bears, and the hippo pool is indoor housing for Malayan Tapirs, and they are supplemented by vivariums for herps and an aquarium along the public interior. The current camel paddock is a mixed exhibit for orangs and tapirs like the one at Dortmund, and the current bearded pig paddock is extended to the Display Lawn. Half of the current paddock is for the sun bears, whilst the other half and the extension has the Banteng.
 
I wouldn't say even the entire outdoor paddock is enough space for any bear species, let alone half the current bearded pig enclosure.

I also think that these concrete grottoes indoors would make London's exhibition of orang-utans look like that of Dudley.

The Malayan tapirs' current indoor accommodation is far, far superior to that of most other UK zoos, if only because of the bad design of the cotton terraces - there is so little outdoor space, that each species now in the Cottons has access to at least 3 indoor stalls. The tapirs' entire area used to house lowland tapir, alpaca, llama, vicuna, and camels at one point.
 
Given the smaller size of sun bears and their aboreality (netted exhibit) I don't think size should be too much of a problem, but I am yet to see this species in captivity so my decision may not be accurate. The dells would of course be decorated appropiately; the walls painted 'naturalistic' colours, lots of climbing oppurtunities taking advantage of the vertical space, and the moats filled in to give more room and allow for large viewing windows; the same would apply for the indoor bear enclosure.
 
Zambar said:
With some of the ideas given here, I made this quick sketch the other day of how I would invisage a more gripping Casson Pavillion. It is based on the site plan given in The Buildings of London Zoo, though it was done quickly so not every feature of the building is to scale, but you should get the idea. Basically it's a South-East Asian themed exhibit (to link in with the new sumatran tiger exhibit if it's built on the current site nearby), and for a more gradual experience there is a wall built along the current supports in the public interior to create a s-shaped trail. The two former elephant stalls are a walk-in rainforest recreation for Livingstone's Flying Foxes and Birds and an indoor exhibit for Orangutans, the former rhino stalls are indoor accomodation for Banteng and Sun Bears, and the hippo pool is indoor housing for Malayan Tapirs, and they are supplemented by vivariums for herps and an aquarium along the public interior. The current camel paddock is a mixed exhibit for orangs and tapirs like the one at Dortmund, and the current bearded pig paddock is extended to the Display Lawn. Half of the current paddock is for the sun bears, whilst the other half and the extension has the Banteng.
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i really like that, can i copy it for my personal vision?
 
Sun bears would be cool, they're a bit more eye-catching than the pigmy hippos or camels.

What is this "ravens cage" that's apparently listed?
 
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The Raven's Cage is a 19th century aviary designed for macaws. It stands empty on the fellow's lawn, between the Clock Tower and Raptor Aviary.
 
Zambar said:
The Raven's Cage is a 19th century aviary designed for macaws. It stands empty on the fellow's lawn, between the Clock Tower and Raptor Aviary.
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oh thanks, is it small and round? I can't seem to get anything on it in google.
 
It was designed for macaws, and later housed the vultures.

Yep, that's it's basic shape. You should be able to find a few pics here and on the rest of the web.
 
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