Taronga Zoo Thong Dee Is Pregnant
- Thread starter torie
- Start date
The pregnancy is wonderful news, and I am ecstatic over the potential success of the herd of elephants. But if the Taronga exhibit is really only half an acre then it is a disgraceful size. I was impressed with the enrichment that is prevalent in the enclosure, the fact that the females are walked through the zoo, and I've read the large progress report and commend the keepers for the well-being of such complex animals. But at the end of the day the size of the exhibit is the same size as many backyards here in Canada. To put 5 elephants on it (plus a potential calf) is so completely ridiculous that it boggles the mind.
And on a sidenote, the Melbourne Zoo's Asian elephant exhibit is better than Taronga's...and that is coming from a neutral Canadian who has been to both.
And on a sidenote, the Melbourne Zoo's Asian elephant exhibit is better than Taronga's...and that is coming from a neutral Canadian who has been to both.
There is enough room if you bulldoze tortises, and condors, then extend around to the picknick ground behind, giving to a area in the same size as current exhibit if i remeber correctly.
The original plans did include ele rides, but off course dismissed. Also original plans were for eles to walk down to taronga beach, for swims.
Tarongas good nature, they took the male gung, who is a very well natured animal, who is currecnlty in protected contatc, so when he moves is not a shock. His new facility will be brand new, and incorperate the old barn as a museum, and a brand new barn WITH a crush, 3 night stalls, keeper areas, and 1 large holding yard, as well as a new large exhibit paddock.
I also think if you introduced burma to the new eles, them removed her- very cruel. she had heman to move with and they were introduced physically for the first time in many yrs. She was on her own for a little over a yr. She now has 2 other eles.
Gung is probably not quite big enough to mount the 14 yr olds, so my guess is thats why he could reach the other 2 females. As a result thong dee preg, and and my guess would be 'other elephnat' would be tang mo, but she is the youngest, and a little smaller I THINK (dnt hold me to it)
On glyns expansion, great ideas, but i dont think mamngement would donate that much room for eles, unless all 3 others fell preg in the next few months, POTENTIALLY giving 4 new animals. The largest of any australian zoo, and then in that case the herd could be broken up, to have some at WPZ, and some at taronga, though i would say my preference would be for all 8 females to stay together, thus needing rapid expansion at taronga ( i say that as the calfs will stay at Taronga, therefore mothers, for complete educational value that a abby elephant can bring
) THERE FORE expansion into this area would be nessicary, as well as a new barn, etc.
BUT REMEMBER- i am more excited than anyone, except maybe Mr. Cooper, but lets not get complacent, elephant mortatlity rates in captivity is high, fingers crossed, and hopefully not in this case, but lets not jump the gun.
The original plans did include ele rides, but off course dismissed. Also original plans were for eles to walk down to taronga beach, for swims.
Tarongas good nature, they took the male gung, who is a very well natured animal, who is currecnlty in protected contatc, so when he moves is not a shock. His new facility will be brand new, and incorperate the old barn as a museum, and a brand new barn WITH a crush, 3 night stalls, keeper areas, and 1 large holding yard, as well as a new large exhibit paddock.
I also think if you introduced burma to the new eles, them removed her- very cruel. she had heman to move with and they were introduced physically for the first time in many yrs. She was on her own for a little over a yr. She now has 2 other eles.
Gung is probably not quite big enough to mount the 14 yr olds, so my guess is thats why he could reach the other 2 females. As a result thong dee preg, and and my guess would be 'other elephnat' would be tang mo, but she is the youngest, and a little smaller I THINK (dnt hold me to it)
On glyns expansion, great ideas, but i dont think mamngement would donate that much room for eles, unless all 3 others fell preg in the next few months, POTENTIALLY giving 4 new animals. The largest of any australian zoo, and then in that case the herd could be broken up, to have some at WPZ, and some at taronga, though i would say my preference would be for all 8 females to stay together, thus needing rapid expansion at taronga ( i say that as the calfs will stay at Taronga, therefore mothers, for complete educational value that a abby elephant can bring
) THERE FORE expansion into this area would be nessicary, as well as a new barn, etc. BUT REMEMBER- i am more excited than anyone, except maybe Mr. Cooper, but lets not get complacent, elephant mortatlity rates in captivity is high, fingers crossed, and hopefully not in this case, but lets not jump the gun.
i just been reading though elephant reproductive info on the net and its all pretty much saying the same - whilst at the younger end of the scale this is not abnormal - research conducted on wild elephants in Sri Lanka documented females giving birth as early as ten years old, placing conception at around eight.
same age as thong dee.
Lee Rhiannon - should try reading some books, and having some facts to back up her arguments or learn to shut her great big stupid mouth. the fact that the anti-elephant camp keep bringing up ridiculous flawed arguments shows that they don't even get the whole anti-elephant argument themselves!
on the zoo running out of space - most certainly its going to become an issue. the zoos stated they wanted to form bonded, stable family groups, but talk to any zookeeper about future options and they will all quickly admit that splitting up groups is something widely canvassed as a way of battling the problem. in fact, its probably the only option if you wanna keep these fancy new city exhibits operational.
the up side however is this - all the thai elephants know eachother. in fact a keeper told me that one of the closest bonds was actually between a melbourne/taronga elephant. so any taronga/melbourne loans are going to presumably be relatively bump-free.
what i think is probably more likely is this - once all or most thai females have bred and produced female calves the groups at taronga and melbourne will be split with pairs of females and their offspring forming new, partially related herds. where these animals go is anyones guess, but by this stage dubbo will probably be close to elephantless and the ideaof building a second facility at werribee is something that has definitely been discussed.
in addition there is perth who may likely be down to a single male female pair of elephants by then and auckland no doubt want more females. whether australia zoo will have its own elephants imported by then is anyones guess.
in any event i don't think its going to take many births before the realities of space restrictions in a miniature urban exhibit rears its ugly head.
but for what its worth i'm very happy we can finally call this a "breeding program" and i don't much care which zoo's first. i just want melbourne and perth particularly to follow suit!
same age as thong dee.
Lee Rhiannon - should try reading some books, and having some facts to back up her arguments or learn to shut her great big stupid mouth. the fact that the anti-elephant camp keep bringing up ridiculous flawed arguments shows that they don't even get the whole anti-elephant argument themselves!
on the zoo running out of space - most certainly its going to become an issue. the zoos stated they wanted to form bonded, stable family groups, but talk to any zookeeper about future options and they will all quickly admit that splitting up groups is something widely canvassed as a way of battling the problem. in fact, its probably the only option if you wanna keep these fancy new city exhibits operational.
the up side however is this - all the thai elephants know eachother. in fact a keeper told me that one of the closest bonds was actually between a melbourne/taronga elephant. so any taronga/melbourne loans are going to presumably be relatively bump-free.
what i think is probably more likely is this - once all or most thai females have bred and produced female calves the groups at taronga and melbourne will be split with pairs of females and their offspring forming new, partially related herds. where these animals go is anyones guess, but by this stage dubbo will probably be close to elephantless and the ideaof building a second facility at werribee is something that has definitely been discussed.
in addition there is perth who may likely be down to a single male female pair of elephants by then and auckland no doubt want more females. whether australia zoo will have its own elephants imported by then is anyones guess.
in any event i don't think its going to take many births before the realities of space restrictions in a miniature urban exhibit rears its ugly head.
but for what its worth i'm very happy we can finally call this a "breeding program" and i don't much care which zoo's first. i just want melbourne and perth particularly to follow suit!
Something I find interesting is the way the word 'underaged' is used. This implies that their is something immoral about the pregnancy, as in a 12 year old human girl becoming pregant, with all the implications of pedophilia etc. If this is what the RSPCA is trying to imply then they are anthromorphising to a terrible degree.
You hit the nail on the head, patrick. The important thing now is for the other zoos holding potential breeders to be successful as well.
It's easy for me to say now, but maybe Taronga's new "gee-whiz" elephant complex should have been located just below the old elephant temple where the twilight concerts are held; that general area. Too late now.
It's easy for me to say now, but maybe Taronga's new "gee-whiz" elephant complex should have been located just below the old elephant temple where the twilight concerts are held; that general area. Too late now.
MARK
Well-Known Member
On glyns expansion, great ideas, but i dont think mamngement would donate that much room for eles, unless all 3 others fell preg in the next few months, POTENTIALLY giving 4 new animals. The largest of any australian zoo, and then in that case the herd could be broken up, to have some at WPZ, and some at taronga, though i would say my preference would be for all 8 females to stay together, thus needing rapid expansion at taronga ( i say that as the calfs will stay at Taronga, therefore mothers, for complete educational value that a abby elephant can bring ) THERE FORE expansion into this area would be nessicary, as well as a new barn, etc.
Glyns idea is a great idea, If they can give the growing herd more space thats a major plus with keeping all the babies in the herd like a real family, that in its self would be a great attaction for the zoo
) THERE FORE expansion into this area would be nessicary, as well as a new barn, etc. Glyns idea is a great idea, If they can give the growing herd more space thats a major plus with keeping all the babies in the herd like a real family, that in its self would be a great attaction for the zoo
There is actually a direct quote relating to this...
BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Elephant's pregnancy sparks row
From Erica Martin (International Fund for Animal Welfare): "the equivalent of allowing your 12-year-old daughter to become pregnant"
Moving on, as I forgot to mention earlier, this is great news and I hope all goes well
Hi Mark,
I think this strikes me to the point of incredulous..... I am really flabbergasted at the length the Greens seem willing to go without bringing in any valid arguements. I will look into the subject of breeding age elephants in the wild - I am not sure if any in-depth research exists, but I will look around!
Personally though, I think the "under-age" breeding of Thong Dee not being natural is a load of hogwash! I think it is far more valid to look at bringing the exhibit up to management proportions sufficient to hold several elephants calves (yes, I AM talking more than just the 1, and it is not IMPOSSIBLE in Oz as some have claimed unsuccessfully).
It is in that respect that several members have already made suggestions on this latter subject that seem worth exploring. The only downside - to me - is that elephants create so much mega interest that less televisible species are ignored and termed "not world class" (somehow that equation in the exhibit extension stories does not sit comfy with me .. either).
Anyway, look forward to some healthy debate on the subject here!
Keep up the good work,
Cheers,
Jelle
I think this strikes me to the point of incredulous..... I am really flabbergasted at the length the Greens seem willing to go without bringing in any valid arguements. I will look into the subject of breeding age elephants in the wild - I am not sure if any in-depth research exists, but I will look around!
Personally though, I think the "under-age" breeding of Thong Dee not being natural is a load of hogwash!
I think it is far more valid to look at bringing the exhibit up to management proportions sufficient to hold several elephants calves (yes, I AM talking more than just the 1, and it is not IMPOSSIBLE in Oz as some have claimed unsuccessfully).It is in that respect that several members have already made suggestions on this latter subject that seem worth exploring. The only downside - to me - is that elephants create so much mega interest that less televisible species are ignored and termed "not world class" (somehow that equation in the exhibit extension stories does not sit comfy with me .. either).
Anyway, look forward to some healthy debate on the subject here!
Keep up the good work,
Cheers,
Jelle
Yassa....are you absolutely sure the exhibit is only half an acre? the entire precinct of wild asia covers 3.5 hectares, and certianly the elephant exhibit is one of the biggest parts of it.
of course the elephant space will be doubled within 12 months or so....found out a few interesting things about the breeding plan...
to be numerically and genetically sustaining, based upon the 8 thai animals just one birth between them every 5 to 6 years is needed with import or 2 unrelated animals every 25 years.
once all founders reproduce the number of calves needed will drop.
of course the elephant space will be doubled within 12 months or so....found out a few interesting things about the breeding plan...
to be numerically and genetically sustaining, based upon the 8 thai animals just one birth between them every 5 to 6 years is needed with import or 2 unrelated animals every 25 years.
once all founders reproduce the number of calves needed will drop.
Yes unfortunately I am absolutely sure. I got that number from documents which were published in the internet around the time when the import of the Thai elephants was prepared. The outdoor enclosure is very little over 2.000 m² without the pools/ water moats. I don`t have the exact total of enclosure + water moats but it is definately not more then 2.500 m² in total. That is a little more then 1/2 acre. Melbourne has at least twice the total space, although the biggest yard in Melbourne is also not that spacious, being around 1.800 m². And I believe it`s at least possible to connect the paddocks and give the elephants acess to two paddocks at the same time.
Regarding Taronga, it`s actually pretty ironic that the new elephant facility doesn`t have more outdoor space then the old enclosure! (Yes I am sure on that, the report I have read gave the exact data for the old and the new enclosure).
I am not that positive about the new bull yard neither, since it can`t be connected with the female enclosure, no elephant in Taronga will ever have acess to more then 1/2 acre at the same time. The space only doubles effectivly if the yards can be connected.
Regarding Taronga, it`s actually pretty ironic that the new elephant facility doesn`t have more outdoor space then the old enclosure! (Yes I am sure on that, the report I have read gave the exact data for the old and the new enclosure).
I am not that positive about the new bull yard neither, since it can`t be connected with the female enclosure, no elephant in Taronga will ever have acess to more then 1/2 acre at the same time. The space only doubles effectivly if the yards can be connected.
Hi, congratulations for pregnant elephant and condolences for idiotic greens. 
Creating big elephant exhibit out of several other species would mirror many European zoos (e.g. Cologne).
I also looked at asianelephant.net and really succesful breeding females (with several living calves) often had their first birth at around 10 years. And when group of females imported together, often already 15-year olds never give birth when younger ones breed. Which is earlier than the current wisdom that elephant female should have first calf before 25. Apparently elephants easily develop cysts or something inside. Hopefully somebody with more knowledge could coment on that.
and condolences for idiotic greens. Creating big elephant exhibit out of several other species would mirror many European zoos (e.g. Cologne).
I also looked at asianelephant.net and really succesful breeding females (with several living calves) often had their first birth at around 10 years. And when group of females imported together, often already 15-year olds never give birth when younger ones breed. Which is earlier than the current wisdom that elephant female should have first calf before 25. Apparently elephants easily develop cysts or something inside. Hopefully somebody with more knowledge could coment on that.
@Yassa, thanks for the data on the exhibit space available to the elephants. Half an acre is so puny that it is difficult to believe that people actually praise the enclosure. Take away the swimming pools and the land space allocated per elephant is obviously far too tiny. I wonder what the record is for smallest space for the world's largest land mammal?
torie
Well-Known Member
this is the editrial quoted of the website for all thoe overseas ect who cant get a copy
"When elephants and motherhood don't mix
THE Greens are right to be appalled by Taronga Zoo's latest pregnancy. Publicists for Thong Dee, an elephant cow (we use the term advisedly), have revealed the eight-year-old is five months' pregnant - as if we should be pleased. Thong Dee has become the Jamie Lynn Spears of the genus Elephantidae, a degrading role model to vulnerable young jumbos everywhere. Instead of grounding the young tearaway and confiscating her car keys, these so-called keepers are claiming she is ready for parenthood. She isn't. Thong Dee is a symbol of all that is wrong with youth culture. Early pregnancy is the first step. Soon: trunk piercings and tattoos. Then we can expect salacious wildlife documentaries in which scantily clad proboscids gyrate suggestively to deafening music. Next: drugs and degradation. A bleary Thong Dee, her trunk full of cocaine after a night of clubbing, falling out of a taxi without her underpants. And where are the parents? Holidaying in Thailand. Disgraceful."
Oh dear God! I didn't think the press coverage could get any worse...
And 'jumbo' was a male
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