you need to read between the lines of his posts and I'm sure you might be able to figure out who Kiwipo actually is (but I will say no more)AskAlice said:
Zion Wildlife Gardens Tiger Killed
- Thread starter Cheetah fan
- Start date
I just would point out that how could Kiwipo have seen the incident with Jahdu and Sita when it was the first time they had been put in together? Because it was. Their introduction had been done over the course of weeks. And there were members of the team present.
Hi Alice,
what I saw was a male white tiger mating with a female tiger, in the pen immidiatly under the house where I understand P bush lives, and apparently watched by her. so as to which exact tigers they were, im not sure, however I remember the guide saying the male was the parks biggest tiger.
so if it wasnt tiger killed then I stand corrected.
However they were in the same pen together, and i watched them mate twice while I was there on the tour. this would be back in March of last year.
As for Childonis thinkinghe knows who I am, no my name is not Tim as he seems to think.
Then it wasn't the tiger that was killed. The biggest tiger at the park is Tygo you would have seen him with Shikana Sita's mother. I know you're not Tim. Thanks for the reply
I'd prefer oyu asked me direct who I am, rather than hint that you know, I've read a number of your posts and noted a number of experiences you have had at various zoos, so oyur obviously quite well travelled around NZ zoos and quite knowlegible as to what goes on.
Which means we don't know each other atall, I only know maybe two people with similar knoweldge and you can't be them.
As for me, Ive had some experience with one zoo in Nz, have visited four others, and thats all.
But I have worked as big cat handler on a breeding farm, and have had a lot of experience with wild animals overseas.
if you are sure you know me, then introduce yourself by PM and make yourself known, far better than making snide insinuations on the forum.
Then it wasn't the tiger that was killed. The biggest tiger at the park is Tygo you would have seen him with Shikana Sita's mother. I know you're not Tim. Thanks for the reply
Thank you for that,
I notice you say you know me too, unless you are the meagan who used to ride horses down Cambridge years ago i dont think so, but if you would like to let me know how you know me rather than the somewhat silly agreement with childonis's post, that would be nice.
No I am not Megan. Not so much on your actual identity but perhaps you are a friend of Craigs or you've met him. It's just that some of the comments you've made had my interest - but then again in other things you've been way off base in your assertions about Zion. Just an inkling more than anything else. I'll do some asking before I say who I think you may be. Quite seriously by the manner of your post you're looking for an argument. You won't get one from me. Anyway I have no beef with you personally. So we'll keep it peaceful
Have a good day
No, Ive never met Craig, and dont know him, he wasnt about on my first vists some years back, and was of course long gone when I visited in the last couple of years.
Im not looking for an argument, but it would be good if you could tell me exaclty where my assetions are off, and put me right, we have sorted out which tiger was which, though I did wonder at the time why are they trying to breed more cats when they are so full.
One reason I heard was they were going to sell white tigers, if so they wont make much of an income that way.
But there are right and wrong ways to keep big cats in captivity these days, and in small bare pens is the wrong way.
I'd like to see far more in the way of enrichment, but I realise the few staff they have are full out feeding and cleaning the cages.
On a plus side, the enclosures always seemed to be clean, and all of the cats seemed to be well fed, even over fed in some cases but thats inevitable with lions in particular who do nothng but eat and sleep given the option.
And the staff I spoke to are very good,
But the ongoing legal procedures are going to eat heavily into their budget I would think, only the lawyers will gain from that.
Some of the info I have is from a former worker, who left on good terms so no bitterness there, and who would happily return if they moved back into the area again.
But in respect to the conservation aspect of Zion, noone should take that seriously, conservation of freaks of nature isnt true conservation.
breeding of cheetahs, sure, but no way are two cheetahs stuck together permanently next to lions with people patting them every day ever going to breed.
Im not looking for an argument, but it would be good if you could tell me exaclty where my assetions are off, and put me right, we have sorted out which tiger was which, though I did wonder at the time why are they trying to breed more cats when they are so full.
One reason I heard was they were going to sell white tigers, if so they wont make much of an income that way.
But there are right and wrong ways to keep big cats in captivity these days, and in small bare pens is the wrong way.
I'd like to see far more in the way of enrichment, but I realise the few staff they have are full out feeding and cleaning the cages.
On a plus side, the enclosures always seemed to be clean, and all of the cats seemed to be well fed, even over fed in some cases but thats inevitable with lions in particular who do nothng but eat and sleep given the option.
And the staff I spoke to are very good,
But the ongoing legal procedures are going to eat heavily into their budget I would think, only the lawyers will gain from that.
Some of the info I have is from a former worker, who left on good terms so no bitterness there, and who would happily return if they moved back into the area again.
But in respect to the conservation aspect of Zion, noone should take that seriously, conservation of freaks of nature isnt true conservation.
breeding of cheetahs, sure, but no way are two cheetahs stuck together permanently next to lions with people patting them every day ever going to breed.
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
No I am not Megan. Not so much on your actual identity but perhaps you are a friend of Craigs or you've met him. It's just that some of the comments you've made had my interest - but then again in other things you've been way off base in your assertions about Zion. Just an inkling more than anything else. I'll do some asking before I say who I think you may be. Quite seriously by the manner of your post you're looking for an argument. You won't get one from me. Anyway I have no beef with you personally. So we'll keep it peaceful
Have a good day
I think that is the most mature post I've ever seen on the internet... Awesome...
As you know now the tiger that was killed was Sita when she was in with Jahdu. They were introduced to each other over a period of weeks not instantly as many have claimed. Staff were present that was and is a fact. It was an unfortunate and unforeseen accident.
Yes the cats do get enrichment. The toys they do have are changed around each day so each cats (or cats) is able to have a different item in their enclosures. Tyres are also hung in some of the enclosures as well for further stimulation. There is also an enrichment group (new formed in December) who at present are in the process of pruchasing new items plus looking at other ways to enhance the cat's environment as well as the Baboon Foxy who despite her great years is still in good enough condition to take interest in new things.
Zion has not claimed conservation where the breeding of cats goes. That was only conveyed by Craig as part of the Lion Man sell. We all know that unless it is an accredited zoo with an approved programme then breeding of exotics is not for conservation.
Three of the cats were moved to Pouakai Zoo in November of 2009 and they are doing well.
The Cheetahs have to have their own enclosure well away from the other cats in order to breed - I asked about that last time I was at the park.
You made a mention of the Zion Paw Project. Yes there is an account for that project. It is a trust account and the Trustees are Tim Husband and Steve Barter. Public record it's in the media reports. Dr Conrad too was interviewed by the Sunday News in November of 2009 about this project.
Selling white tigers? Not that I know of and I am there a lot! I still remeber the ridiculous claims about how Abu was sold for parts - which he wasn't. He was buried as the MAF Regs required.
The legal side of things...I'm staying out of. That's between Craig and his mother Patricia and the courts to sort out. If it's ever sorted out.
The team at the park are great people indeed. Good people who really do care about the cats. Bottom line is the park is trying to survive but there are those out there trying to make that very difficult indeed.
Kiwpo I'd have to reread all of your posts to point out where you aren't quite correct on things - If you need the links for those articles I mentioned I can soon provide them no problem.
Have a good one.
Yes the cats do get enrichment. The toys they do have are changed around each day so each cats (or cats) is able to have a different item in their enclosures. Tyres are also hung in some of the enclosures as well for further stimulation. There is also an enrichment group (new formed in December) who at present are in the process of pruchasing new items plus looking at other ways to enhance the cat's environment as well as the Baboon Foxy who despite her great years is still in good enough condition to take interest in new things.
Zion has not claimed conservation where the breeding of cats goes. That was only conveyed by Craig as part of the Lion Man sell. We all know that unless it is an accredited zoo with an approved programme then breeding of exotics is not for conservation.
Three of the cats were moved to Pouakai Zoo in November of 2009 and they are doing well.
The Cheetahs have to have their own enclosure well away from the other cats in order to breed - I asked about that last time I was at the park.
You made a mention of the Zion Paw Project. Yes there is an account for that project. It is a trust account and the Trustees are Tim Husband and Steve Barter. Public record it's in the media reports. Dr Conrad too was interviewed by the Sunday News in November of 2009 about this project.
Selling white tigers? Not that I know of and I am there a lot! I still remeber the ridiculous claims about how Abu was sold for parts - which he wasn't. He was buried as the MAF Regs required.
The legal side of things...I'm staying out of. That's between Craig and his mother Patricia and the courts to sort out. If it's ever sorted out.
The team at the park are great people indeed. Good people who really do care about the cats. Bottom line is the park is trying to survive but there are those out there trying to make that very difficult indeed.
Kiwpo I'd have to reread all of your posts to point out where you aren't quite correct on things - If you need the links for those articles I mentioned I can soon provide them no problem.
Have a good one.
Staff can be present but can't respond quickly enough to when these problems occurr. Like with Colchester's unfortunate incident with their white tigers in November 1999.
To reply to your points, my answers in caps
Yes the cats do get enrichment. The toys they do have are changed around each day so each cats (or cats) is able to have a different item in their enclosures. Tyres are also hung in some of the enclosures as well for further stimulation. There is also an enrichment group
A TOY A DAY DOES NOT MEAN ENRICHMENT, NOR DOES A TYRE HANGING FROM A ROPE, IF THEIR ENRICHMENT GROUP WANTS TO KNOW HOW ITS DONE WHY NOT GET HOLD OF THE PEOPE WHO DO IT AT OTHER ZOOS.
Zion has not claimed conservation where the breeding of cats goes. That was only conveyed by Craig as part of the Lion Man sell. We all know that unless it is an accredited zoo with an approved programme then breeding of exotics is not for conservation.
ZION STILL HAS A CONSERVATION MESSAGE ON THEIR WEBSITE WHICH STATES THEY ARE IMPLEMENTING STRONG PROGRAMS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE ENDANGERED SPEICES IN THEIR CARE, AND SPECIFICALLY NAMES LIONS AND BENGAL TIGERS AS TWO OF THEIR SPECIES, SO THEY SURE DO CLAIM CONSERVATION BY BREEDING.
Three of the cats were moved to Pouakai Zoo in November of 2009 and they are doing well.
NOT SURPRISING THEY ARE DOING WELL IN ANOTHER ZOO
The Cheetahs have to have their own enclosure well away from the other cats in order to breed - I asked about that last time I was at the park.
ITS GOOD THEY HAVE BEEN MOVED, BUT PUTITNG TWO CHEETAHS TOGETHER IN AN ENCLOSURE STILL WONT MAKE THEM BREED NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE, AGAIN IF THEY WERE REALLY INTERESTED IN BREEDING CHEETAH THERE ARE EXPERTS IN NZ WHO COULD TELL THEM HOW, SO NOT ONLY WILL THEY NOT BREED AT ZION, THE ZION STAFF KNOWS THAT, OR SHOULD.
You made a mention of the Zion Paw Project. Yes there is an account for that project. It is a trust account and the Trustees are Tim Husband and Steve Barter. Public record it's in the media reports. Dr Conrad too was interviewed by the Sunday News in November of 2009 about this project.
THE ARE STILL COLLECTING DONATIONS FOR THIS PROJECT, BUT SO FAR NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE.
Selling white tigers? Not that I know of and I am there a lot! I still remeber the ridiculous claims about how Abu was sold for parts - which he wasn't. He was buried as the MAF Regs required.
WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF BREEDING MORE WHITE TIGERS OF NOT TO SELL THEM, THEY ARE ALREADY OVER STOCKED ON CATS
The team at the park are great people indeed. Good people who really do care about the cats. Bottom line is the park is trying to survive but there are those out there trying to make that very difficult indeed.
I AGREE THEY HAVE SOME GREAT STAFF THERE, SOME OF THEM ARE VERY EXPERTIENCED, ITS THE PEOPLE WHO TELL THEM WHAT TO DO THAT ARE AT FAULT.
Kiwpo I'd have to reread all of your posts to point out where you aren't quite correct on things - If you need the links for those articles I mentioned I can soon provide them no problem.
IF OYU CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE YOU THINK I WAS IN THE WRONG WHY MENTION IT. IF YOU ARE NOT MEGAN MAYBE YOU ARE PAT? IN WHICH CASE YOU WILL KNOW ME, AND YOU WILL HAVE BEEN OVERJOYED TO HAVE LEARNED I AM NO LONGER BASED IN AUCKLAND
Have a good one.
YOU TOO[/QUOTE]
Yes the cats do get enrichment. The toys they do have are changed around each day so each cats (or cats) is able to have a different item in their enclosures. Tyres are also hung in some of the enclosures as well for further stimulation. There is also an enrichment group
A TOY A DAY DOES NOT MEAN ENRICHMENT, NOR DOES A TYRE HANGING FROM A ROPE, IF THEIR ENRICHMENT GROUP WANTS TO KNOW HOW ITS DONE WHY NOT GET HOLD OF THE PEOPE WHO DO IT AT OTHER ZOOS.
Zion has not claimed conservation where the breeding of cats goes. That was only conveyed by Craig as part of the Lion Man sell. We all know that unless it is an accredited zoo with an approved programme then breeding of exotics is not for conservation.
ZION STILL HAS A CONSERVATION MESSAGE ON THEIR WEBSITE WHICH STATES THEY ARE IMPLEMENTING STRONG PROGRAMS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE ENDANGERED SPEICES IN THEIR CARE, AND SPECIFICALLY NAMES LIONS AND BENGAL TIGERS AS TWO OF THEIR SPECIES, SO THEY SURE DO CLAIM CONSERVATION BY BREEDING.
Three of the cats were moved to Pouakai Zoo in November of 2009 and they are doing well.
NOT SURPRISING THEY ARE DOING WELL IN ANOTHER ZOO
The Cheetahs have to have their own enclosure well away from the other cats in order to breed - I asked about that last time I was at the park.
ITS GOOD THEY HAVE BEEN MOVED, BUT PUTITNG TWO CHEETAHS TOGETHER IN AN ENCLOSURE STILL WONT MAKE THEM BREED NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE, AGAIN IF THEY WERE REALLY INTERESTED IN BREEDING CHEETAH THERE ARE EXPERTS IN NZ WHO COULD TELL THEM HOW, SO NOT ONLY WILL THEY NOT BREED AT ZION, THE ZION STAFF KNOWS THAT, OR SHOULD.
You made a mention of the Zion Paw Project. Yes there is an account for that project. It is a trust account and the Trustees are Tim Husband and Steve Barter. Public record it's in the media reports. Dr Conrad too was interviewed by the Sunday News in November of 2009 about this project.
THE ARE STILL COLLECTING DONATIONS FOR THIS PROJECT, BUT SO FAR NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE.
Selling white tigers? Not that I know of and I am there a lot! I still remeber the ridiculous claims about how Abu was sold for parts - which he wasn't. He was buried as the MAF Regs required.
WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF BREEDING MORE WHITE TIGERS OF NOT TO SELL THEM, THEY ARE ALREADY OVER STOCKED ON CATS
The team at the park are great people indeed. Good people who really do care about the cats. Bottom line is the park is trying to survive but there are those out there trying to make that very difficult indeed.
I AGREE THEY HAVE SOME GREAT STAFF THERE, SOME OF THEM ARE VERY EXPERTIENCED, ITS THE PEOPLE WHO TELL THEM WHAT TO DO THAT ARE AT FAULT.
Kiwpo I'd have to reread all of your posts to point out where you aren't quite correct on things - If you need the links for those articles I mentioned I can soon provide them no problem.
IF OYU CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE YOU THINK I WAS IN THE WRONG WHY MENTION IT. IF YOU ARE NOT MEGAN MAYBE YOU ARE PAT? IN WHICH CASE YOU WILL KNOW ME, AND YOU WILL HAVE BEEN OVERJOYED TO HAVE LEARNED I AM NO LONGER BASED IN AUCKLAND
Have a good one.
YOU TOO
[/QUOTE]Kiwipo I've just come to the conclusion you really are searching for an argument with someone. Well it won't be me.
On the cheetahs reread what I said please. I did NOT say the cheetahs had been moved.
You've made so many posts I would really have to go through everyone of them make notes then point out where you are incorrect. I'll do that when I actually have the luxury of time which right now I don't have.
No I am not Patricia. She does not read Zoochat. She doesn't have time to do that and neither does Megan. If you want to know about the paw project I suggest you contact the park's media spokesperson.
On the cheetahs reread what I said please. I did NOT say the cheetahs had been moved.
You've made so many posts I would really have to go through everyone of them make notes then point out where you are incorrect. I'll do that when I actually have the luxury of time which right now I don't have.
No I am not Patricia. She does not read Zoochat. She doesn't have time to do that and neither does Megan. If you want to know about the paw project I suggest you contact the park's media spokesperson.
actually I don't think you're Tim Husband, that wasn't my implication. He's been on the forum before a couple of times under different names and frankly you're a much smarter person than he is.kiwipo said:
jenjen
Well-Known Member
has anyone else seen this youtube account where someone under his name (or him) posts anti zion video's about how the zoo is going to rot without him.
YouTube - TheLionManCraigBusch's Channel
YouTube - TheLionManCraigBusch's Channel
You certainly seem to have set yourself up as an official spokesperson on here for Zion though, and without indentifying yourself as authorised to be one.
Last time I went to Zion the cheetahs were in a long enclosure with four white lions right next door, unless they have done some expensive building in recent times there is no enclosure distant enough form lions.
And as I mentioned before, putting a male and female cheetah together will not result in cubs, so there is no way those two cheetah are going to breed at Zion, something that the management well knows anyway.
I think there is a lot of potential for Zion, and thye do in fact have some very good staff there, but as I say the managment is the big problem.
As for the PAW project, I know all about that that I care too, its a paersons onw choice to donate to that. Suffice to say not one cat has yet had it's paws operated on.
The one very good thing about the present managment is they ceased this operation, even South Africa, which is well known for exploiting lions, doesn't allow declawing of big cats.
zoogiraffe
Well-Known Member
Your best bet is to read through the many threads in the New Zealand forum on the subject!
"You certainly seem to have set yourself up as an official spokesperson on here for Zion though, and without indentifying yourself as authorised to be one. "
Did I say I was?
No, but you certainly appear to be, going by the questions, leap to the defence of the management, and refute any critisism of the running of the park. And some of your info is almost word for word what the official responses are to some queries, as if you either wrote them yourself or were directed to use them.
Just the way it appears.
Hence why I think you are far more involved with the managment than any casual visitor or general worker.