Top 5 Zoos in the USA

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Just my two cents, but personally I'd rather see a zoo tackle the worst existing aspects of itself before focusing on big flashy new exhibitions. If Bronx were to get some money together and do something better with both their False Gharials and giraffe house, I don't think there would be a bad enclosure left in the zoo!

~Thylo
 
In regards to Bronx's collection and its constant growth, I'd like to point out that I have visited the zoo every year since 2011, averaging 3-4 visits a year and my visit this past June marks the very first time ever that I visited the zoo and did not obtain multiple lifeticks. Even then there are currently three birds on-exhibit that would be lifers for me, I just failed to spot them. This fantastic fact is in no way a commentary on the difficulty of viewing for the zoo's animals, but rather the fact that they constantly are adding new species, many into renovated enclosures that had been closed for some time prior. Of course the majority of these lifers came from inverts and fishes, but a great deal were also birds and herps with a good few being newly added mammals over the years.

~thylo
 
The initial question was : is SDZ the perfect zoo?
First of all everyone should define for itself what would be a perfect zoo.

Now the debate seems to be whose better ? Bronx or SDZ? Whose number 1 in the US?

Tbh it looks just like when you ask New York ppl about LA ppl and vice versa.
 
Just my two cents, but personally I'd rather see a zoo tackle the worst existing aspects of itself before focusing on big flashy new exhibitions. If Bronx were to get some money together and do something better with both their False Gharials and giraffe house, I don't think there would be a bad enclosure left in the zoo!

~Thylo

I don't disagree, but both can be done at the same time. San Diego's exhibits over the past 10 years or even going all the way back to Monkey Trails and Forest Trails have addressed many of their problem exhibits. Of course some still remain and I'd assume they're planning on tackling the old grottoes and cages along center street in the near future.

As for The Bronx only having a couple bad enclosures left, first off I doubt that would be the case during the winter for several animals, but like most zoos with a large reptile collection, including San Diego, I'd say they could improve many of those exhibits. Also, I feel that the Nile crocodile exhibit is way too small. The elephant exhibit is also on the small side, but since their phasing them out there likely isn't about motivation to change that.

Speaking of phasing out, that's what happened with the leopards in Jungle World? Because that exhibit was pretty bad.

Speaking of Jungle World, while I'm not complaining about the tapir exhibit, I doubt it's larger than the one at San Diego you criticized.

But The Bronx is good in this regard (not having too many bad exhibits).
 
Speaking of Jungle World, while I'm not complaining about the tapir exhibit, I doubt it's larger than the one at San Diego you criticized.

I don't remember what the criticism was or exactly what Bronx's tapir exhibit looks like, but a major problem I noticed with San Diego's enclosure is that it's not adequately shaded.... a big problem for an undergrowth species that is prone to blindness from overexposure to sunlight (interestingly, this could be an example of one instance where San Diego has *not* used the local climate to their advantage).
 
I don't remember what the criticism was or exactly what Bronx's tapir exhibit looks like, but a major problem I noticed with San Diego's enclosure is that it's not adequately shaded.... a big problem for an undergrowth species that is prone to blindness from overexposure to sunlight (interestingly, this could be an example of one instance where San Diego has *not* used the local climate to their advantage).

The one he criticized is the Malayan tapir exhibit, which does have a good amount of shade. He said it was very small, but I'm guessing he didn't notice or recall that you don't see the exhibit all at once as there are different viewing areas.

Now the exhibit in Elephant Odyssey could use more shade and foliage.
 
Ok, let’s talk about the weather!

There are a good few people here who take the climate a zoo is set in as a major factor when determining the quality of a zoo, some even appear to flat-out disqualify any colder climate zoos from the discussion for “best zoo” on their geographic location alone. I understand the points made thus far, but personally I think that’s totally unfair and, if anything, really solid zoos that find themselves in harsher climates should be in the discussion all that much more.

Let’s look at it from a visitor perspective first:
SDZ is lucky enough to have clear and sunny skies year-round and their exhibit design reflects that, with there not really being any indoor exhibit space apart from the Reptile House, which is only sort of indoors. Being in a hot, sunny climate can be a disadvantage, though, when you give people no escape from the heat unless they go to a restaurant or gift shop. Bronx has to deal with winter and because of that a little under half of the zoo’s exhibits are mainly indoors, which is a plus any time of year because whether it's nearly 85 degrees out or 25 degrees out I can get cooled off/warmed up in World of Birds or the Mouse House and still be able to view many, many fantastic animals. Sure 100 degrees in Southern California can be much better than 100 degrees in New York due to humidity, but hot is still hot. At SDZ your only option if you’re getting really hot is to go inside an animal-less building until you’re done over-heating. This was not a huge problem when I visited in January, but there were still a couple of times when I found myself wishing there was a real indoor exhibit to cool off in.

Weather is central to what makes one zoo better than another.
A million bucks goes a lot farther to exhibit a species in San Diego that it will
in say New York- there is just no way around that.

Ignoring the fact that this is fundamentally not true as there are a hundred other factors at play here such as building costs, type of exhibit, etc., if we follow this statement and say that San Diego has near-perfect weather year-round, this gives them even less of an excuse for having poor quality habitats for many of their species. If this is the case then there’s no reason why SDZ’s outdoor giraffe and bear enclosures are horrendous while Bronx’s are of excellent quality. Additionally, it’s been stated very clearly in prior discussion that SDZ receives a lot more funding than most other zoos, and if we are to believe that a million dollars goes significantly further there than in, say, New York, then there’s even less of an excuse for the zoo having newer exhibits met with division while a zoo who has to stretch every last penny is keeping an exhibit over 70 years old in better shape than most others around. As a side, does the fact that one zoo can bring in more money and donors than another really make it the better zoo? To me it seems like a rather pointless fact if they’re blowing it on ugly Lion statues and goes back to that whole “popularity ≠ quality” conversation.

Going back to the weather, I think people are also forgetting that many animals are much hardier in cold weather than might be expected. I’ve seen big cats, zebras, antelopes, Asian Elephants, rhinos, and even giant tortoises and alligators out during the winter months and sometimes even with snow on the ground. Sure when the weather drops to below freezing the story might change for many of these animals (according to Google, there’s no month where the average temperature for New York City actually drops below freezing, but obviously it happens) but it’s definitely an exaggeration to say that these animals are locked indoors for half of the year as some have stated. I think the AZA regulation is 40 degrees for how cold it can be when exhibiting giraffes outdoors, and according to Google there are four months where the low in NYC is under 40 (one of those months is March, though, which is very weird weather-wise and it doesn’t get that cold very often), but only one month where the high is under 40, and even then by just one degree. There’s also that whole Global Warming thing and as such Northeast winters are really weird. I remember two years ago it was in the mid-70s on Christmas up here, and I’m pretty sure this past year was in the 60s. All that considered Bronx’s giraffes would have likely only spent maybe 1-2 months max completely indoors over the course of this entire past winter season. Yeah that’s still not as good as being able to be outside year round, but it definitely isn’t as bad as the 4-6 months I think a lot of people are imagining it is.

Additionally, adapting to climate plays a huge role in the collection set-up itself. Whether or not you think it’s the superior zoo, I don’t think any of us would scoff at Bronx’s collection, and when you really think about it there aren’t that many species exhibited outdoors that can’t be outside for at least the vast majority of the year. As far as ungulates go, Bronx actually keeps two more species than San Diego does, but Bronx simply keeps species that are mostly better suited for all of the temperature extremes of the Northeast. SDZ keeps mainly African hoofstock, which do well in their climate, and while Bronx does keep a fair few of these, they also keep a lot of Asian deer species native to more temperate ecosystems. As for the African hoofstock, species like Southern White Rhinoceros, Grévy’s Zebra, Thomson’s Gazelle, Nubian Ibex, and Red River Hog are all pretty cold-weather tolerant. Probably the ungulate enclosure at Bronx that gets complained about the most is the one for Malayan Tapir as it’s on the smaller side and completely indoors but, while I agree with those criticisms, I’m fairly certain it’s about the same size, if not larger than SDZ’s outdoor enclosure and is much, much more naturalistic. Another added benefit of the animal being kept indoors is that the humidity of the enclosure is able to be kept much closer to that of a Southeast Asian rainforest than the arid heat of Southern California is. For primates, SDZ may be considered one of the best zoos around, but both zoos keep the same number of species. The difference is that Bronx keeps mostly smaller species from Strepsirrhini and Platyrrhini that can be exhibited very well indoors, with most of their lemur enclosures being larger and taller than many outdoor enclosures. Several of the New World Monkeys have sizeable seasonal outdoor habitats as well. The all-indoor gibbon, langur, and guenon enclosures are also pretty huge and very tall and all allow for natural light to be filtered through the ceilings. As discussed before the zoo’s gorilla habitat is arguably the best in the world and their indoor accommodations are better than most zoos’. The seldom talked about Mandrill enclosure is also on-par with SDZ’s in terms of size and height. I’m not going to go all that in-depth with carnivores, but to my knowledge all the species Bronx exhibits outdoors can remain outdoors year-round and the ones kept solely indoors are all smaller species.

When it comes to birds, all bar a few of the more tropical species at Bronx are kept indoors, mainly in the world-class World of Birds, the Aquatic Bird House, or world-class JungleWorld, with the more winter hardy species being kept outdoors in various aviaries and ponds spread around the zoo. I know some might want to jump on that and, fairly, state how SDZ can keep all of their birds outdoors year-round but how much better is that really? Of course the magnificence that are the Scripps and Owen Aviaries are extremely tough to beat but the vast majority of SDZ’s birds are kept in rows of bird cages along the Aviary Trail or dotted around the zoo. Almost every single one of Bronx’s indoor bird enclosures is larger- and more importantly taller- than these. The only added benefit is the more natural lighting, though most of Bronx’s enclosures feature glass ceilings that filter in natural light anyhow. As for the aviary giants at SDZ, I found that Scripps is roughly 9,200sqft in size and Owen is roughly 11,100sqft, and @nczoofan has helpfully estimated the new African Rocks aviary to be in the 10,500sqft range. In comparison, Bronx’s only outdoor walk-through aviary, the Atkin’s SeaBird Aviary, is roughly 10,250sqft in size so it’ss smaller than Owen, around the same size as AR, and larger than Scripps. Of course the Atkin’s may not have the same height as the three SDZ aviaries, but at 60 feet tall and lacking an abundance of thick foliage the birds here still have plenty of space to soar. This aviary also follows my earlier statement about the zoo’s outdoor exhibits featuring species better suited for New York’s climate as the exhibit focuses on the Argentinian coast and is home to species perfectly comfortable outdoors year-round. Moving the conversation away from just Bronx, let’s look at another more northern zoo that’s been mentioned a lot on this thread: Omaha’s Henry Doorly Zoo. Their Simmon’s Aviary is roughly 174,000sqft(!) in size and features mainly cold-weather tolerant species. While they do have to remove some of the species from the aviary during the winter, the zoo still has huge indoor free-flight aviaries for more warm-weather species in the Desert Dome (~42,000sqft) and Lied Jungle (~65,340sqft). Going back to Bronx, if we follow @nczoofan’s estimations, the main free-flight room in JungleWorld is somewhere around 20,000sqft. All of these completely indoor aviaries offer their birds significantly more space than any of SDZ’s outdoor aviaries and all have glass ceilings filtering in natural light so I must ask again, how much better off are birds kept solely outdoors really?

As for herptiles, I think a lot of people here are assuming Bronx has no outdoor herp displays but they actually have 12 (and they have three Komodo Dragon yards and two giant tortoise yards, but I’m counting them all as just two displays), only three less than SDZ. Two of them display native species. As for the others, yes they have to be brought indoors when it gets too cold (though I’ve seen giant tortoises out in the high 40s so I think some reptiles’ tolerance is another thing people sometimes assume is much lower than it is) but that’s why the zoo makes sure it has top notch indoor enclosures. The zoo has one of the best indoor Komodo Dragon enclosures in the country (miles ahead of SDZ’s indoor habitat in size and design; I did not see an outdoor one), and imo their indoor Indian Gharial enclosure beats SDZ’s outdoor enclosure in almost every way- including in size, design with an underwater viewing window, a more impressive mixed species list, and the animals have to climb up and down rock structures if they want to get to the lower pools and as such they get the added benefit of more than just a flat beach area (something seldom found in crocodile exhibits)- other than the benefit of natural heat. Obviously that does matter a great deal with reptiles and outdoors will almost always be better, but remember that the vast, vast majority of SDZ’s reptiles are kept indoors year-round and, for the most part, Bronx’s enclosures are either on-par or much better. Not to mention that SDZ also has to bring their outdoor reptiles inside sometimes as well. I’ve heard that the majority of the species kept outdoors are completely off-exhibit during parts of December and January. What are their indoor accommodations like? I personally managed to see most of them on my visit at the end of the latter month, but there were still a couple enclosures that sat empty (yes I counted those in my total earlier).

Another aspect of all-indoor exhibits is that it gives zoos more opportunities to house more odd species, let’s not forget that. I found out that SDZ no longer has any tree-kangaroos so they currently keep only 18 mammals in the ‘other’ category, this group mainly consisting of smaller mammals. None of those 18 species, however, are all that small, and a fair few of them are strictly kept off-exhibit (many solely indoors might I add). Bronx, on the other hand, exhibits 41 species under this category! Most of these are small rodents, elephant-shrews, pikas, bats, etc. and are exhibited almost solely indoors. This number does not even include all of the smaller carnivores such as the spotted skunks, smaller ungulates such as chevrotain, and smaller primates such as bushbaby that Bronx also exhibits indoors. Smaller species like these are significantly more difficult to exhibit outdoors, and as such SDZ has none. To use some zoos that haven’t really been featured on this thread thus far, the Los Angeles Zoo exhibits 14 mammals in the ‘other’ category, meanwhile the Smithsonian National Zoo exhibits 21. While these numbers may be a lot closer, most of LA’s are larger species such as wallabies and anteaters, with the smaller species all being kept within their few small indoor exhibits. In fact, 8 out of their 14 species are kept solely indoors regardless of size. Meanwhile SNZ keeps various smaller mammals such as tenrecs and armadillos and 16 out of their 21 species are held solely indoors. As far as actual exhibit space goes, these animals often don’t really need that much space to be kept healthy and well anyway so the general smaller size of indoor enclosures can still be great for them. In fact, sometimes being exhibited indoors will give them even more space than they’d get in an outdoor enclosure. For example, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a squirrel be given more space than in Bronx’s JungleWorld and the flying foxes both in JW and in Omaha’s Lied Jungle have more space to fly than in any outdoor enclosure I’ve heard of.

Yet another benefit of indoor exhibitry comes when displaying nocturnal species. SDZ keeps two species of wombat outdoors in very good enclosures, but since they’re nocturnal most visitors will never see them outside of their burrows. LA on the other hand exhibits their wombat in a very large nocturnal enclosure that actually gives them more space than SDZ does, and as such they’re much more active. While Bronx may not currently have an actual nocturnal house anymore, there are still many nocturnal displays across the zoo in JungleWorld, the Mouse House, Madagascar!, the Carter Giraffe Building, Congo Gorilla Forest, and the Aquatic Bird House. This enables them to much more effectively exhibit dozens of nocturnal species such as cloud rat, jerboa, loris, mouse lemur, armadillo, and Aardvark as well as birds such as kiwi and owl, and even some herps such as python and tomato frog. Meanwhile, possibly the most famous nocturnal species at SDZ is the Aye-Aye, and we’ve talked in detail about the quality of their set-up already. We could go off on a whole debate about the morals of nocturnal exhibits and whether or not they even make that much of a difference, but purely from a visitor’s perspective a zoo being able to actually present a unique animal to us that we probably wouldn’t be able to see otherwise is a major benefit.

Now if one wants to talk purely in collection sizes, I found that the Bronx Zoo keeps ~117 mammal species (41 misc., 32 ungulates, 25 primates, and 19 carnivores) while the San Diego Zoo keeps ~98 (30 ungulates, 25 carnivores, 25 primates, and 18 misc.). I estimated these numbers myself using my extensive notes I take while visiting zoos as well as my knowledge of what they keep off-exhibit. Of course since these are my own rough estimates the numbers may be larger depending on what’s off-show that I don’t know about. I’d imagine at least Bronx keeps some smaller mammals bts that I don’t know about. These numbers are also at species-level only so don’t account for SDZ’s two Asian Elephant subspecies or Bronx’s two tiger and two Brown Bear subspecies. Thankfully for both birds and herps, @snowleopard has been so kind as to share the International Zoo Yearbook stats with us so we can have much more definite numbers here. For birds SDZ holds the greatest number of any collection in the US (that’s listed on IZY anyhow) with ~330 species while Bronx sits in second place at ~300 species. Due to some zoos tying with one another there are 14 zoos in the top 10 list by bird collection size. Of these, seven are northern zoos. For herps Bronx also sits in a close second place with ~220 species while San Diego is tied for fifth at exactly 190 species. Omaha is the zoo in first place with ~240 species, Nashville is in third with ~210, Dallas and St. Louis are tied for fourth with ~200, and Houston ties with SDZ in fifth with ~190 species. Note that four out of the five zoos that beat SDZ in collection size are all northern zoos. Expanding to the top 10 again, 9 out of the 17 zoos (again, due to several tied spots) are all found with the “worse” climate. In terms of total collection size, these estimates put Bronx ahead of SDZ at ~637 species compared to ~618. I’m not going to bother trying to work out fish and invert collection sizes as my notes for those are a lot less complete and zoos tend to leave a lot of these unlabeled so it’s hard to get an accurate estimate. At any rate I’m almost certain Bronx and SDZ are about tied for inverts and Bronx has a good amount more fishes unless SDZ has a lot off-exhibit. Regardless, I think it is very clearly shown here that having the “better” climate does not automatically mean a zoo has a superior collection size or exhibit list.

(continued...)

~Thylo
 
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The one he criticized is the Malayan tapir exhibit, which does have a good amount of shade. He said it was very small, but I'm guessing he didn't notice or recall that you don't see the exhibit all at once as there are different viewing areas.

Now the exhibit in Elephant Odyssey could use more shade and foliage.

Ah, I see. I had forgotten that there were two tapir enclosures at San Diego, and I was indeed thinking of the one in EO. I don't remember the Malayan tapir exhibit well enough to comment.
 
(continued...)

I’d now like to talk about the criticism of Bronx during the winter.

@CGSwans stated earlier that, “Bronx does have to shut considerable portions of the zoo over winter: this is one of its greatest weaknesses,” and while I do agree that this is true and definitely is one of the, if not the biggest shortcoming of the zoo. That said the problem is definitely a lot smaller than I think a lot of the posters here realized. I believe somewhere on this thread or perhaps elsewhere on the forum I read someone claim that half of the zoo has to close during the winter months, but the reality is that not even ¼ of it closes. If you were to visit the zoo in the middle of December (which I often do) you would find that only two exhibits are fully closed, these being the Butterfly Garden and the monorail. Going along with the main interests of the majority on this forum, the Children’s Zoo would also be considered essentially closed as only the petting zoo portion of it remains open year-round. While a lot of the wild species in the CZ are pretty cold-weather tolerant, a significant portion of the collection does have to be removed during the winter (this is where a lot of the outdoor herp displays are) and I think this is why it mostly closes. As for the other two, the Butterfly Garden has to close for obvious reasons (almost all butterfly exhibits do, even in southern zoos like the San Antonio Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park) and the monorail closes, I think, for safety reasons more than anything else. This exhibit is home to a lot of the zoo’s deer species as well as Asian Elephant, Indian Rhinoceros, Gaur, babirusa, two antelopes, two caprines, tiger, and Red Panda. Out of all of those species, babirusa is the only one I don’t think is very cold-weather tolerant, meaning all the others will still have access to their fantastic outdoor yards year-round or at least close to it for the elephants and rhinos. I think the only reason this exhibit closes during the winter is that the ice and snow that will undoubtedly collect on the track makes it too dangerous to run the trams. Of course this is still a major criticism for the zoo and it does mean a chunk of the collection that could be viewable year-round isn’t, but at the end of the day the monorail system is still the most effective way to view that area of the zoo (making it a trail would add a considerable amount of time to how long it takes to view the zoo and might frustrate and overwhelm visitors who wanted to see it all in one day, a major criticism that could be thrown at SDZ) and the animals, while technically off-exhibit during the winter, are not trapped indoors for months as it seems a lot of people believe. After this, only one exhibit even partially closes during the winter, this being Congo Gorilla Forest. No the Okapi, colobus, and Mandrill cannot be outside during the colder parts of the year, but as discussed before the hogs can and the gorillas have a great indoor set-up. Additionally, there are a variety of birds, reptiles, amphibians, fishes, and invertebrates displayed in the indoor portions of the exhibit. There are even two primates on display year-round in indoor enclosures that more than meet their size requirements. A lot of people seem to think the majority of African Plains is also closed all winter long but that’s just not true. The majority of the species, including hoofstock, can be out for much of the winter. As I discussed at length earlier, the giraffes can be outside for a lot longer than many people realize and when it gets too cold they can be viewed indoors. Yes the indoor pen is bad, yes being outside year-round is preferable, but my point is the animals can still be viewed. There are also multiple off-exhibit pens in that building so the whole herd is not crammed into that one space. After this, all of the remaining outdoor exhibits are fully open no matter what time of year it is. Sure, some of the birds are removed from their outdoor aviaries during the winter, but there’s still a plethora of winter hardy birds that remain outdoors and the zoo even fills most of the emptied enclosures with different birds that can handle the cold. Then of course you have building after building of excellent indoor exhibits, many of which are considered some of the best exhibits in the country. So you have 2 exhibits that fully close during the winter (one of which is indoors and is a problem zoos of all climates face), 3 that can partially close, 8 outdoor exhibits that remain open year-round (as well as a good few random aviaries and enclosures dotted here and there that all also remain open year-round), and 9 indoor exhibits that remain open year-round. That’s 91% of exhibits that remain at least partially open all-year, with 77% of them being completely open year-round,and of course those numbers still don’t count the aforementioned enclosures unaffiliated with a specific exhibit that do remain open year-round. Of course that’s not as good as SDZ’s near 100% the majority of the year, but it’s a very far cry from claims that half the zoo closes for half the year. Not to mention the fact that, by far, the majority of the collection is exhibited inside those nine buildings so one can still view most of what the zoo has to offer no matter what time of year it is.

I know that a lot of the above paragraphs probably read off like a veiled attempt to prove that Bronx is the better zoo, but the point of it all is to show that Bronx (or any northern zoo) can still compete with SDZ (or any southern zoo) in collection quality, exhibit quality, and husbandry standards, and that the fact that they have to deal with snow doesn’t do much to take away from their overall quantifiable greatness.

Turning the question around, what happens at SDZ when it gets too hot? What are the animals to do when it gets far too hot to be out in the open sun? This may not be so much of an issue for most of the primates and birds as their habitats are pretty well vegetated, but most of the larger mammal enclosures are pretty barren and many are surrounded by or even incorporate mock rock (some even metal barriers) and that will retain/reflect a lot of heat. When cold climate zoos get hit with cold weather, they have large indoor habitats for their animals to escape into. Those same houses offer the same protection for when it gets too hot. SDZ, as well established by others, doesn’t really have all that much in the way of indoor housing because the weather is typically nice enough to leave the animals out all the time- so what happens when it gets too hot? And San Diego definitely gets too hot sometimes. I visited in January and I felt it getting pretty warm, something that’s probably amplified by the fact that there are very large and industrialized sections of the zoo with significantly less shade cover for both guests and animals. Additionally, if we are to criticize cold climate zoos, and even choose to not give them a fair shot in this “greatest” race simply because they have to house warm climate species in colder, more humid climates, are we not going to criticize warm climate zoos for keeping cold climate species such as Polar Bears, Snow Leopards, Sichuan Takin, and various more northern-dwelling birds in a hot climate? Are misters a good enough solution to this problem? What does it matter if these animals are outdoors year-round if they have to huddle next to a mister all day to keep from overheating? Are we going to ignore the fact that, for the most part, a large mammal from a warmer climate is going to adapt a lot better to a temperate climate than any mammal from a colder climate will to a warmer climate? For SDZ in particular, with it being in the Southwest, should we not criticize them for keeping animals such as apes, rainforest-dwelling hoofstock, and many birds from very humid environments in a drier, desert-like atmosphere?

Yes different zoos have to deal with different climates, but every climate comes with benefits and drawbacks and imo what makes for a really great zoo is how they deal with their own individual climate and the benefits/drawbacks associated with it. I hope I have made that point abundantly clear, and hopefully this puts the whole weather debate to bed. Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but I hope everyone can at least see why it’s completely unfair and a little ridiculous to automatically strike northern zoos down for their climate and/or raise southern zoos up for theirs. Besides, I think it’s very obvious that all the zoos mentioned here have excellent overall husbandry techniques and excellent breeding results- with both Bronx and SDZ surely holding numerous records- regardless of what climate they’re in.

~Thylo
 
@ThylacineAlive your last two posts really should come with a disclaimer that it is possible to fully consume one's lunch while reading them.
My only objection, and it's very minor (if not nitpicking), would to be to specify that gorillas at Bronx have a great indoor set up in terms of animal welfare (which is what should be paramount in my opniion). From a visitor perspective, their indoor set up leaves me wondering why that is open in the cooler months.
This is no way though detracts from your core message.
 
I'll just say again that it doesn't get too hot in San Diego Zoo that often for the vast majority of animals. Heat is a much bigger problem in the summer in NYC than in San Diego.

Also as far as indoor exhibits go, I feel like most people judge them on a sliding scale compared to outdoor ones. Like "this is a good exhibit (for an indoor enclosure).
 
I'll just say again that it doesn't get too hot in San Diego Zoo that often for the vast majority of animals. Heat is a much bigger problem in the summer in NYC than in San Diego.

Also as far as indoor exhibits go, I feel like most people judge them on a sliding scale compared to outdoor ones. Like "this is a good exhibit (for an indoor enclosure).

And at Bronx the enclosures are more natural and as such absorb less heat. Almost all of them also have large ponds and more tree cover than you could ever ask for. And again, the indoor enclosures offer relief from the heat as well.

I think you're just being argumentative here tbh. You were just presented with many examples of indoor enclosures that are a lot larger than outdoor enclosures but I guess the fact that there's a roof over them means the rest is irrelevant right..

~Thylo
 
As for The Bronx only having a couple bad enclosures left, first off I doubt that would be the case during the winter for several animals, but like most zoos with a large reptile collection, including San Diego, I'd say they could improve many of those exhibits. Also, I feel that the Nile crocodile exhibit is way too small. The elephant exhibit is also on the small side, but since their phasing them out there likely isn't about motivation to change that.

Speaking of phasing out, that's what happened with the leopards in Jungle World? Because that exhibit was pretty bad.

The leopards have not been seen on exhibit in the past several months by several zoochat members. I also skimmed a few pages of instagram and found no pictures of them. When I was their in early June several workers were redoing rockwork, installing new climbing features and replanting the exhibit. Given the long absence and the advanced age of the leopards, it seems the zoo is most likely converting the exhibit for a new species. Binturong are held behind the scenes at the zoo, and previously lived in the now asian-small clawed otter exhibit in Jungleworld. They would be my guess for most likely resident for the exhibit, yet another option could be Clouded Leopard (which the exhibit was originally built for).

The worst exhibits at the zoo as it stands are definitely the False Gharial and Nile Crocodile exhibits. I know the croc's give the wow-factor to the exhibit, but they are simply to large in my opinion for the space. I wish the definitely swap out the large individuals for some juveniles in Madagascar. As well I wish the zoo would devote all of the greenhouse to False Gharial, rather than giving them 40% while having Chinese alligator and Cuban Crocodile alongside (both of which are rare species in zoos/the wild as well). One thing that I would point out is that at least 50% of reptile house exhibits have been renovated in recent years, and the newer inhabitants are more adequately sized. For a building built in 1899, the exhibits are looking pretty great recently.
 
And at Bronx the enclosures are more natural and as such absorb less heat. Almost all of them also have large ponds and more tree cover than you could ever ask for. And again, the indoor enclosures offer relief from the heat as well.

I think you're just being argumentative here tbh. You were just presented with many examples of indoor enclosures that are a lot larger than outdoor enclosures but I guess the fact that there's a roof over them means the rest is irrelevant right..

~Thylo

Yep, you haven't been argumentative at all. My bad.

That comment on indoor enclosures is much more of a general comment than one specific to The Bronx, though.

That said, I don't think that high of a percentage of the indoor exhibits at the Bronx would be considered above average size if outdoors. That's far from me saying that none are to be clear. But I also don't want to get into a situation where I respond to every single detail in your very long post.
 
The leopards have not been seen on exhibit in the past several months by several zoochat members. I also skimmed a few pages of instagram and found no pictures of them. When I was their in early June several workers were redoing rockwork, installing new climbing features and replanting the exhibit. Given the long absence and the advanced age of the leopards, it seems the zoo is most likely converting the exhibit for a new species. Binturong are held behind the scenes at the zoo, and previously lived in the now asian-small clawed otter exhibit in Jungleworld. They would be my guess for most likely resident for the exhibit, yet another option could be Clouded Leopard (which the exhibit was originally built for).

The worst exhibits at the zoo as it stands are definitely the False Gharial and Nile Crocodile exhibits. I know the croc's give the wow-factor to the exhibit, but they are simply to large in my opinion for the space. I wish the definitely swap out the large individuals for some juveniles in Madagascar. As well I wish the zoo would devote all of the greenhouse to False Gharial, rather than giving them 40% while having Chinese alligator and Cuban Crocodile alongside (both of which are rare species in zoos/the wild as well). One thing that I would point out is that at least 50% of reptile house exhibits have been renovated in recent years, and the newer inhabitants are more adequately sized. For a building built in 1899, the exhibits are looking pretty great recently.

So that's good regarding both the polar bears and leopards, but at the same time a negative for the collection. As I said before, it's an interesting question to me whether something like that elevates or diminishes a zoo, or if it's a net neutral move.

Totally agree about the Nile crocodile exhibit as I mentioned it earlier. That exhibit is a joke to me. As for reptile enclosures in the reptile house, my comments aren't specific to the Bronx as this complaint can be made about many of the reptile tanks in San Diego. I just think most of those type of enclosures are too small.
 
So that's good regarding both the polar bears and leopards, but at the same time a negative for the collection. As I said before, it's an interesting question to me whether something like that elevates or diminishes a zoo, or if it's a net neutral move.

Totally agree about the Nile crocodile exhibit as I mentioned it earlier. That exhibit is a joke to me. As for reptile enclosures in the reptile house, my comments aren't specific to the Bronx as this complaint can be made about many of the reptile tanks in San Diego. I just think most of those type of enclosures are too small.

The National Zoo's reptile exhibits come to mind especially when i think about size and complexity. My ideal reptile house would have lesser exhibits and larger mixed-species exhibits, like many of the newer Bronx zoo & San Diego Zoo exhibits. My home zoo, the North Carolina zoo has some amazing reptile exhibits between the desert & streamside exhibit, because they focus on large mixed-species exhibits. Snakes especially seem to get the short end of the stick at most zoo's and are the least likely to be involved in organized breeding programs. Zoos love to show a wide variety of snakes, but often this leads to such mediocre housing. They are hard to mix obviously, compared to turtles and lizards, but seeing a tank where the snake cannot even fully stretch out definitely upsets me.

Also I view the zoos collection changes as a whole in recent years as a definite positive. The leopards had no conservation value and were not a species WCS worked with, so it always felt inevitable that they would eventually be replaced.
 
From my recollection, I think the fossa exhibit is pretty small and so is what I think was the first exhibit in Madagascar.
 
Yep, you haven't been argumentative at all. My bad.

That comment on indoor enclosures is much more of a general comment than one specific to The Bronx, though.

That said, I don't think that high of a percentage of the indoor exhibits at the Bronx would be considered above average size if outdoors. That's far from me saying that none are to be clear. But I also don't want to get into a situation where I respond to every single detail in your very long post.

I've been making new arguments and backing all of my points up with stats and detailed explanations, as can be seen by my very long post. You just keep insisting that San Diego's weather is near-perfect all the time and New York's is either the Arctic or the Amazon, and that indoor exhibits/enclosures are inherently bad despite being given many different examples from multiple zoos where they're better than outdoor ones. If we pluck an indoor enclosure and place it outside, the size of the animal kept in it stays the same. Who cares if an indoor enclosure is only a few feet by a few feet when the inhabitant is only a few inches in size and all of its needs are met. Whether it's indoors or outdoors it makes no difference. Perfect example: Bronx has Merriam's Kangaroo-Rat outside in the Children's Zoo and in the Mouse House. The latter enclosure is the same size, if not slightly larger than the one outdoors.

~Thylo
 
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From my recollection, I think the fossa exhibit is pretty small and so is what I think was the first exhibit in Madagascar.

Here is the photo of Bronx's Fossa enclosure you posted on your visit:
Madagascar! | ZooChat

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That is about half of the enclosure and it also drops lower the further back you go.


Here is the enclosure SDZ's were in on my visit:
Fossa Exhibit | ZooChat

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I think that should prove the point just fine and I'd like to finally move on now.

The sifaka enclosure isn't the widest, but it's very tall and far from what I think most of us would considering "pretty small".

~Thylo
 
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From my recollection, I think the fossa exhibit is pretty small and so is what I think was the first exhibit in Madagascar.

First exhibit is for crowned lemur & coquerels sifaka. Its not the largest exhibit but is at least 30-35 feet tall and has ample climbing opportunities. The fossa exhibit is ample in my opinion, and only holds (0,2) fossa who are always on exhibit together. The exhibit is about 800 sq feet, which is the same size as the outdoor Omaha exhibit and Pittsburgh Zoo's new exhibit as an example. Most zoo fossa exhibits are pretty small from a quick zoochat search it would seem.
 
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