Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo - Births, Deaths and Transfers 2015

This is excellent news! I am glad to see the zoo finally using births as a marketing tactic! Its about time!
 
Fantastic news! I don't know if I find 4 lion cubs more exciting then 2 pandas...

2016 will be big for babies.

Confirmed babies
4 lions
2 pandas (in October... fingers crossed)
1 Indian rhino (in feb if all goes well)
1 camel (if Sally ever gives birth)
1 zebra (late summer or fall as Tori and Jake have bred again)

Breeding is being attempted with...
Clouded leopards
Cheetahs
Tigers (if Kemala ever cycles)
Lynx
Orangutan
White rhinos (if any summer breeding worked)
Wolves
Red River Hogs
Tree Kangaroo
Polar Bear
Bison
Penguins
Tamarins
Ostriches
African Otter (not holding my breath)
Red Panda (see above)
Kudu
Babirusa
Komodo dragon (maybe)
Marabou (they are recommended but I don't think the zoo is trying with 5 already)
Eurasian Eagle Owl
African Crowned Cranes

If the new breeding partner arrives in time or at all...
Saki
Pygmy Hippo
Snow Leopard
Warthog (I don't know if a new male is coming)
Hyena
River Otter

I highly doubt all will happen but even a small fraction would make for an awesome 2016.
 
I knew I can count on you TZFan to come out with a list. Some of those attempts, although correct, are likely to come up empty handed unfortunately. Orangutans being the big one that comes to mind. But regardless of that, if even one of those animals add to the current baby born, 2016 will be an eventful year for the zoo.

With them having hired a new advertising company, they have a real great chance to showcase its potential to the general public.
 
Don't you think the Zoo is shooting themselves in the foot with the news of cubs? A lot can happen between now and birth and they're promoting this like it's a done deal. Huzzah! What if the cubs don't survive? Just another black-eye on the Zoo with all they have endured in the past years. They should have kept it under wraps until the cub(s) if born, survive a few months. Giant Panda are big news. Hope all goes well, but if not, could have a falling out with even more supporters and organizations. It's not like the cub(s) will be on-show right away. Don't count your cubs until they are a few months old and doing well. When's AZA evaluation for reaccreditation? March? Yikes.
 
I see what you're saying Gulo gulo, but bringing this up now is kind of like a double edge sword. Bringing up Panda cubs now, can be considered premature, because if the cubs don't survive infancy everyone will wonder what went wrong. But if they do survive getting the word out now works in creates good word of mouth and builds the anticipation for people that may not regularly go to the zoo.

Plus, with the Pandas being here for a limited time, and with the amount of money it took to get them here, people expect this news from the zoo. Some people want know about the pregnancy, then the birth.
 
Gulo gulo said:
Don't you think the Zoo is shooting themselves in the foot with the news of cubs? A lot can happen between now and birth and they're promoting this like it's a done deal. Huzzah! What if the cubs don't survive? Just another black-eye on the Zoo with all they have endured in the past years. They should have kept it under wraps until the cub(s) if born, survive a few months. Giant Panda are big news. Hope all goes well, but if not, could have a falling out with even more supporters and organizations. It's not like the cub(s) will be on-show right away. Don't count your cubs until they are a few months old and doing well. When's AZA evaluation for reaccreditation? March? Yikes.
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I can see where you're coming from and keeping quiet about births is usually what the Zoo does. However, the 4 zoos in the US with giant pandas are completely open about the breeding and pregnancy status of their females and when bad news does happen, they share it and move on (e.g. National Zoo with the recent loss of one of the cubs, San Diego Zoo in the past announcing their female was carrying twins and then later announcing that they could only find 1 fetus). The press release from the Zoo said that they were 'cautiously hopeful for healthy births' and many of the interviews with zoo staff this week included similar caution so I'm going to guess that they are well aware of the fragile nature of panda cubs.
 
In this case I think is fully justified since there is a confirmed foetus and the behavior of the panda female is indicative of birthing behaviors. In their press releases they do convey that when born a panda cub(s) can still be touch and go.
 
According to the Toronto Zoo Facebook the white lion Cubs will be staying at the zoo and joining their parents and lemon I guess we will have a big "pride".
 
I doubt that the cubs will be staying long term. Yes they will be part of the pride for about two years but the zoo will not pass up the chance of more cubs if they can rehome the current cubs once grown. Once they know the genders of the cubs they will probably start looking for new homes for them. If they get new home there will be space for more cubs down the line which in turn will drive up attendance.

The only reason the zoo kept Lindy and Jerroh when they were born was because they could not find another zoo that would take them. Their problem was that they were not produced by a white lion pair or a normal tawny pair. Being half white they carried genes the lion SSP doesn't want. Being sired by a normal father they didn't possess the genetics necessary to produce more white lions. They had no genetic value and thus never should have been produced. The zoo created its own problem there. They were very lucky they were able to place their older brother Simba at Parc Safari.

Fintan and Makali's cubs though are white lions even if some or all of them are tawny in colour. They can produce more white lions. While the AZA doesn't want the cubs, making it more difficult to place them, there are plenty of zoos that would jump at the chance to have white lions. Currently in Canada there are a number of young prides just entering maturity (Parc Safari, Safari Niagara, African Lion Safari, Elmvale Jungle Zoo who had their own litter of 3 this spring and Jungle Cat World with Toronto's alternate male Gopa). The cubs could go to a number of zoos across Canada. Forget the zoos across the world which would love to have them. They could be swapped in exchange for valuable European, Japanese or Australian breeding stock of other species. They will potentially be very valuable for the zoo.

Add to that the fact that the zoo's lion house is not massive. It is already home to 5 adult lions in 2 prides. The zoo's lion count is now 9. Those cubs will grow quickly and need space. Likely Lindy and Jerroh will go into retirement in some off exhibit holding. At 15 they are seniors. But even if the big guys move out they would have 7 adult lions in 2 year time. Unless all four cubs are female they will need to be split into two prides eventually. The boys will try to assert themselves over Fintan. If the zoo can avoid it they wouldn't want to a situation like they did with Rowdy, Lindy and Jerroh where they had to castrate the boys in a failed attempt to keep the pride together.
 
I'm sure I could find it way back in a thread but where did our White lions come from? Just wondering about their generations?
 
The white lions were kept by a private owner in South Africa before being sent here.

I agree with TZFan that the baby white lions probably won't stay at the zoo for too long. I've been inside the lion house and I just can't imagine 9 lions fitting in there.
 
arcticwolf said:
The white lions were kept by a private owner in South Africa before being sent here.

I agree with TZFan that the baby white lions probably won't stay at the zoo for too long. I've been inside the lion house and I just can't imagine 9 lions fitting in there.
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Question for you arcticwolf, having never been in the lion house, how many lion do you think is the max number of lion the zoo can hold in the lion house?
 
cypher said:
Question for you arcticwolf, having never been in the lion house, how many lion do you think is the max number of lion the zoo can hold in the lion house?
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It's tough for me to say because I don't know how much space each individual lion needs, but I don't think there's enough room for the five adults plus the four babies when they get bigger. If I remember correctly, there were around 6-8 different rooms for the lions, but they would normally leave the doors open between them to give the cats more space. If Jerroh and Lindy moved to an off exhibit area because of their age, there might be enough room for all the lions, but there is no way that any more could fit so there couldn't be any breeding.
 
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Given that information, I wouldn't be surprised if Lindy and Jerroh are moved to an off exhibit location once the cubs start to grow. If the zoo is smart, they'll look at which zoos are willing to take the cubs when they grow. If they do find future homes for the cubs, Lindy and Jerroh can always be moved back to the lion exhibit, until another litter is born.
 
Remember though Lindy and Jerroh are 15. If they do make the move with them I would think it is very likely they will never go on exhibit again. The cubs would be ready for a move to another zoo around 2. That would make Lindy and Jerroh 17, nearly 18. They wont move lions that old... that is if they are even still around. Their mother passed at 16 and father at 20.
 
I forgot to consider their age around the time of the cubs being moved out. You're probably right. They'll just retire off exhibit. That could mean 2016 possible 2017 may be the last time we see the boys.
 
It probably wont even be that long before the boys move. Fintan and Lemon will be kept from the cubs for a couple of months. They may need the space for Makali to have time away from the cubs but have the cubs secure from Fintan and Lemon until they are a little older. They could be making the decision very soon. Even when the pride is back together the cubs will still be very small and it will be winter. The pride might need the extra space so the cubs can play and exercise in a safe warm place. I would think Lindy and Jerroh could move soon and at the latest by spring. The zoo will want cubs on display full time in the spring and summer which will limit the big guys time on display.
 
There are three pens on each side of the main corridor in the lion house. The pens can be opened into each other and that is the way they have been in the current setup with the whites on one side and the boys on the other.

In a corner is the maternity den which is smaller and has separate heat controls and I believe the others cannot see into it. I vaguely remember looking thru a window in a solid door, but may be mistaken.

I have never heard of there being an off-exhibit lion holding, but there is plenty of extra off-exhibit room for the cheetahs. I don't know the setup, i.e. if they can have an area for the the boys that is suitable for them and does not interfere with cheetah comfort.

My expectation is that the boys will be moved off soon and mom and the cubs will get their space at first.

Wednesday I will be talking to a lion keeper and will ask about these things. I did learn last week that they had a keeper on overnight birth watch for two weeks. She took a night off then went in when she heard the kittens were coming.

As of Friday morning the cubs were fine and mom was doing all the right things.
 
Just to clarify, when it was said that Lindy and Jerroh would be taken off exhibit, and away from the lion house in order to make room, I don't think anyone was talking about a specific off exhibit location for lions. Rather a repurposed exhibit of another species.

Also, it's good to hear that Makali is doing well as a mother. I know some Keepers didn't want cubs this earlier on with them because the lion are still fairly young. They younger they are the higher the chances of mother rejecting or even killing the cubs.
 
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