Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Births, Deaths and Transfers 2021

m30t said:
That would be a devastating blow to conservation efforts and support for the AZA on this side of the border.
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Unfortunately, the Masai giraffe population is too small and too fragile for valuable individuals to be locked behind miles of red tape. As it stands the Canadian animals are doing very little for the SSP because of what it takes to move animals between the countries. If government policies don’t change, the SSP doesn’t really have a choice. Those animals need to be in a situation where they can be moved freely in the best interest of the survival of the program. They can’t afford to waste years of an animal’s life for paperwork, permits, quarantines, medical examinations, etc. to have to turn around and do the exact same thing with any offspring produced or to lose the animal under anesthesia for the required medical examinations.The Masai giraffe SSP has been doubling down on consolidating the animals and insuring that the program is successful and productive— San Diego will soon have three breeding herds across its facilities as they phase out the last of their generic herd in the East Africa exhibit, Zoo Tampa has come online as a breeding facility, and another major zoo is looking to make the switch soon as well.. They are also pulling animals from non-AZA facilities (Pittsburgh and Safari West amongst the recent moves) and from facilities with high mortality rates (Toledo). Pulling the animals from Canada is quite potentially the next move. Giraffe are, of course, a major draw card for zoos, and Canadian zoos would not be left without them— generic giraffe would be transferred north to replace them— Similarly to how Pittsburgh and Toledo have both now switched to housing generic giraffe. I will also say that this has been in discussion since before the pandemic hit.
 
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I'm definitely not disputing you on the reasoning behind it @Kudu21. And I certainly appreciate the reasoning you provide.
What concerns me is that much of that will get lost in the messaging, the narrative will be along the lines of Toronto Zoo loses it's giraffes due to American politics and to fulfill the needs of American institutions. Even though that narrative is inaccurate, I think it's more likely to become dominant. If it exists it will really hurt fundraising and support for zoos up here. It is really hard to sell people on donating to the zoo when there will be the perceived threat that the AZA will take away another species from the zoo in a few years.
I don't know that the conservation messaging behind generic giraffes is on par with Masai, especially considering how much the Toronto Zoo has been promoting that conservation message with recent and upcoming births.

If it is what is ultimately necessary for the survival of the Masai giraffe population, then it is hard for me personally to oppose it. It is just very unfortunate that it will likely come at a high cost here to support for conservation, the AZA, and specifically the Toronto Zoo.
 
m30t said:
I'm definitely not disputing you on the reasoning behind it @Kudu21. And I certainly appreciate the reasoning you provide.
What concerns me is that much of that will get lost in the messaging, the narrative will be along the lines of Toronto Zoo loses it's giraffes due to American politics and to fulfill the needs of American institutions. Even though that narrative is inaccurate, I think it's more likely to become dominant. If it exists it will really hurt fundraising and support for zoos up here. It is really hard to sell people on donating to the zoo when there will be the perceived threat that the AZA will take away another species from the zoo in a few years.
I don't know that the conservation messaging behind generic giraffes is on par with Masai, especially considering how much the Toronto Zoo has been promoting that conservation message with recent and upcoming births.

If it is what is ultimately necessary for the survival of the Masai giraffe population, then it is hard for me personally to oppose it. It is just very unfortunate that it will likely come at a high cost here to support for conservation, the AZA, and specifically the Toronto Zoo.
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While I understand where you’re coming from and how it could feel like that, personally— I highly doubt that in the grander scheme of things, it would have as large of an impact as you suggest. Most zoos do not promote their generic giraffe as generic— they promote them as reticulated — which are also endangered — and they run with that. It is much more likely that they would be presented as new and exciting animals and the public would be none the wiser. While inherently, yes, from a conservation standpoint, housing generic giraffe is not the same as housing Masai giraffe (however unlikely it is that any giraffe in human care in North America would ever be released back into the wild anyways), that does not mean that simply housing giraffe cannot support giraffe conservation. Facilities can still focus in on giraffe conservation, still raise awareness for giraffe, still fund in-situ conservation all the while holding hybrid giraffe— and they do. Just look at Cheyenne Mountain— they are one of the most active partners for in-situ giraffe conservation and have been at the forefront of giraffe husbandry and they hold generic giraffe. At the end of the day, I think very little would be truly lost for Toronto and Calgary while a lot would be gained for the Masai giraffe population as a whole.
 
I agree that housing generic giraffes does have conservation potential.

I don't agree though that the general public will be unaware that we have lost our Masai giraffes. As our females (mother/daughter) are part of several generations that have been born and raised here. Furthermore, the Toronto Zoo's excellent social media efforts over the last eighteen months have highlighted their current giraffes and their lineage. So there is an awareness regarding the specific individuals that are currently housed. Loosing them all will require an explanation. As will the likely down time of having no giraffes on display while they are transferred out and the generics are transferred in.
The narrative I previously mentioned becomes a concern with that explanation, as part of Canadian political culture is an apprehension/getting our guard up, when we feel that we are being used/taken advantage of by the USA. You and I know that's not the case here. However with the wounds from the elephant debacle still stinging a bit, I think it's easy to see how potential guests and donors will see this as an American institution taking "our animals" for their own needs. And that leads to losses.
 
@m30t - I was speaking more to the fact that I do not think that guests would know that the new animals were hybrid giraffe or inherently any less "special" than the Masai giraffe-- not that they wouldn't know that they were different at all.

I will admit that I am not well versed in the politics of how Canadians view relations and transactions with the United States nor the Toronto Zoo's social media presence relating to their lineage of giraffe, so both of those factors could have an effect on the public perception of the recall of the Canadian Masai giraffe population to the United States.

That said, I would imagine that some similarly clever and personalized media about why the move is important for those individuals and their species as a whole could hopefully prevent some of misplaced frustration from the public. It is my understanding that if this is to go through, a sizeable group of generics will be imported together from a single facility in the United States to expedite the proceedings, so hopefully the zoo would be without giraffe only for a very brief amount of time, if at all-- assuming the same shipper would then turn around and bring the Masai herd back to the States in the same go.
 
I don't think giraffes as a whole would be pulled from Canada. Maybe the Masai because we only have the two herds. But the Masai breeding program is much smaller than the retics so it would make equal sense to consider opening up rules for the Masai program and let and encourage more Canadian zoos to join. If we could flip the herds at African Lion Safari, Granby, Parc Safari and Safari Niagara over we could build a population that would only require a new injection of blood from time to time. Much like most other species Canada keeps. If we should loose them though as much as it would physically pain me, we could easily pick up retics and only us zoo nerds would know the difference. There is a strong herd at African Lion Safari and smaller herds scattered at the zoos already mentioned as well as Elmvale Jungle Zoo (though I dont really want Toronto working with them if possible to avoid), and Greater Vancouver.

The SSP cannot force Toronto or Calgary to give up all of the Masais we have. They can ask for the males back, but Toronto owns Mstari, Amani and Emarah. We are talking about the most valuable female, her daughter and another of the most valuable females. Plus Toronto owns quite a number of the most valuable giraffes in North America who descend from their original herd. That gives Toronto more pull in the decision making process. When you own the most valuable animals you definitely should get a say. Not that I think Toronto would ever say "fine be that way give me my giraffes back." That would be ridiculous. But their wishes should be under strong consideration.

Clearly we a a group that is very passionate about their giraffe herd and its incredible legacy. There hasn't been a trip to the zoo for a single one of us where a member of Mstari's bloodline was there to say hello to. We have grown up with them, shared every joy and every sorrow. They are at least for me a huge part of my zoo family (right up there with my beloved gorillas, orangs, zebras and rhinos). Plus we have recently been kicked pretty hard with the announcement that we are loosing not just out hippos but or Indian rhinos too. Another big loss like Mstari and Kiko would be a crushing blow. We know Amani must go.

Just to clarify my main reasons for assuming Zoey is probably a lost cause is she needs to move somewhere else and likely could have been moved by now. She is high ranking and rather than wait forever to see if the border to open up and then figure all of that border red tape out, then transport her, why not just move her to say Columbus where she can settle in and get to breeding sooner. Add to that there are difficulties with transporting adult giraffes. Its done but they tend to try and keep those travels shorter because transporting is hard. Not hard on the giraffe but the logistics because you need to route things to ensure you have the necessary clearance to get under phone lines, hydro wires, overpasses, bridges ect. It's a far more complicated undertaking then say a much smaller 1-2 year old giraffe. Lastly this was a move recommended 2 years ago now. Kiko may no longer be the best genetic match for her. Births and deaths among the whole population change the outlook and maybe today another female would be a more appropriate pick. Gee while we waited for a replacement for our last male Stripes we lost out on 2 other males before we got Kiko. Although to be fair we werent part of the AZA during that time and I know that killed both previous recommendations. Their zoos said no. Covid can have a similar effect in that the right fit for Toronto could change. I think if covid hadn't screwed up the world she would be here right now. She likely would have arrived last spring or fall.

Until the zoo says something to us there is little point in worrying too much. The zoo is very good at crushing our hearts lately with phase outs. I for one choose living in ignorant bliss or denial about this one as long as possible. Not for a moment am I choosing optimism because Kudu21's argument makes sense. We have lost too many species already for that very reason. Lousy border and government restrictions.
 
Kudu21 said:
I’m curious as to where the idea that giraffe are not usually moved past the age of three comes from… because adult giraffe are moved all the time? We moved four adult giraffe within the last year (in trailers, not crates). I won’t pretend to know anything specifically about the proposed transfer of Zoey from Cincinnati; however, I will say that the SSP has been considering pulling the remaining Masai giraffe from Canada due to all of the hoops to jump through to move them across country lines.
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I heard that from one of the giraffe keepers which is understandable. if you have been a fan of the FB lives, they showed kiko's crate when he came up here and there's no way he would fit in it now. I think they were more about the travel. As TZFan said it is harder transporting adult giraffes.

Also who is We? what zoo was the one who moved four giraffes?
 
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cypher said:
I agree with @m30t, that would really hurt Canada's potential in helping with these SSP animals.

I think governing bodies on both sides of the border should work together in getting better cooperation for border crossing. Border crossing has become such a headache with Covid, that better regulations need to be made for zoos in order to transfer animals easier.
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CoVid is the excuse. This is part and parcel of a much wider problem with imports and exports within / to / fro the North American continent. All that TBH requires the political will from Federal Governments/the administration elite to get it sorted. And resolved it should as it is demonstrated that it has and will continue impeding (Inter-(national) ex situ conservation (breeding) programs from developing, moving forward and / or expanding. Both the Canadian as well as both the US and Mexican governments really need to look closely at this
 
Update on our new red fox friend, Todd. He's a one year old rescue that was found sitting by the side of the road in Milton. They believe someone tried to raise him and release him. Due to his love of humans he was unsuitable for release. Glad we could give him a great home! Would be nice if they could find a young female to be his companion. Spayed and neutered naturally because we don't need to breed but foxes are social so he would probably like a friend. Hopefully keep him more lively too.
 
A Przewalski's horse foal is due any day now. Not surprising since last year one of the two foals didn't make it. The mother was put back in with Dudley pretty soon after for breeding. Hope this one is healthy. Eurasia needs another baby to celebrate. They had a hard spring with the tigers.
 
A foal would also give reason for people to hop on the zoomobile. Get a chance to see it.
 
The zoo's Facebook live today was a look into the Vancouver Island marmot breeding center. @Kifaru Bwana, I figured you most of all would like to know about it but I'm sure there are others who don't follow the zoo's Facebook page normally who would like to know too.
 
16 Black-Footed Ferrets kits were announced on Instagram.

Four females successfully produced offspring this year. The first three kits were born on May 19 to mom Guess and dad Coconut. Five kits were born on June 1 to Aviana and Coconut. Four kits were born on June 3 to mom Abuela and dad Chestnut. And four kits were born on June 10 to Nana and Coconut.
 
What a great success for the black footed ferret program! Man Coconut was a busy boy. He must have superior genetics because usually each litter has had a different father. Congratulations to the keepers! Shows how hard they work.

Another big announcement today. A Przewalski's horse foal was born late July 14th or 15th to Winona and Dudley. They do not yet know its gender. Also the herd has been split into three groups. Winona, the foal, Genghis, Valary and Naghai are in one group. We already knew Phoenix and Alexandria were in another group. That would leave Dudley (who my guess is in with the old timers since there is a group of 3), Chilka, Vitalia, Winnie and Colton. They did say the group of 3 are visible from the foot path so its possible maybe they are in with the camels? Maybe the old dromedary yard? Those are the only exhibits I can think of as being foot path visible but the dromedary yard would be a barely case.
 
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That's great news. On the zoomobile ride they mentioned that when the foal is born, it'll be held with mother in the old Przewalski's Horse exhibit, separated from the rest of the herd.
 
@cypher, today's Facebook Live showed the foal was in with Winona, Genghis, Valary and Naghai. I can see them wanting to reduce stress on her and reduce the herd's size and keep her off exhibit until they know the foal is healthy and thriving after last years lost foal. They probably picked her closest friends so she had the security of a herd without overwhelming her. And by reducing the stress of the zoomo tours after so long without guests was probably wise too. We never did hear exactly what happened with the foal other than it died. It could have been just a weak foal or maybe it was rejection. Hopefully the full female herd, plus Genghis and Colton is back together again soon. Though Colton is probably getting old enough now he will need to be castrated or separated. He could probably go live with dad just fine until a new home was chosen. He might be a little much for grandpa Phoenix and Alexandria.
 
What happened to the male yak and one of the females? In the March Facebook live they say 8 females and 1male. But today when I was there they said 7 females only. Also the 3 horses can be seen from the foot path by the camels across the water in the lower pen. The foal and 4 adults are in the large pen that has a gate into the wilds part and the tunnel under the road to the small pen.
 
@Amand2, I noticed they mentioned only 7 female yak too during the recent Facebook Live that was supposed to be about yaks but ended up being the pregnancy announcement for Winona. I haven't heard anything but given they arrived as mature adults in 2012ish (so they would be around 3-4 years old), most of them would be at least 12-13 years old, except the calves born here. It is possible they have begun to die off. They could live well into their 20's but thats at the upper end of the lifespan not the average. They also could have had social issues and that forced them to transfer out the ones who weren't getting along. However the exhibit is rather large so if they were having herd trouble there would be plenty of space to separate without transfer. My guess would be they are dead. Probably will just have to wait until someone can talk to a Eurasia keeper to know.
 
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