Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo - Developments 2016

TZFan said:
Question about the breeding and Parc Safari thing... ummm you mean cheetahs right? If not what species are you referring too.

Favourite news you shared was the arrival of the Fresno kookaburra. Next task... finding out his name.
Click to expand...

Yes I was referring to the Cheetah, sorry about that confusion. I'm also excited to see a new Kookaburra.

Back to the new master plan, I'm glad to see that the Orangutan exterior exhibit is still taking priority to be fully completed by the first quarter of 2018. I was worried that it would be bumped back to be completed with the rest of Indo-Malaya overhaul, which starts around 2024.
 
@Palorchestes I agree that the monorail overall would get good usage, I just don't see it as a motivating force to get people into the domain, especially once animals like the grizzlies move into new section.

One thing that strikes me a bit are the plans for the Asian Highlands. It seems like much of Eurasia wilds, just recently renovated is set to be renovated again in the early phases of this next plan. I'm not overly in love with any of the current exhibits there, so on that front its not disappointing. But I am a little disappointed that the money was spent on the last renovation only for that to have to be updated again so quickly.
Interestingly in that design, the snow leopards are moving again in the Master Plan, and their new area looks to be potentially much larger. Perhaps most puzzling is the Amur Tiger exhibit. The current viewing area for the pandas is marked as a service road in the new plan, with the viewing for the tigers extending down the walk way towards the red panda exhibit. So once again, a relatively recent renovation might need additional renovation again. I find this most concerning mainly due to my love of the view offered of the current panda exhibit and greatly look forward to this view of tigers.
 
@m30t, I gotta agree with you about the Asian Highlands. Overtime I've found the Eurasia Wilds to be very underwhelming, but the Panda exhibits are one of the few highlights in terms of viewing. Don't see the need to change that. However, if the changes bring better viewing opportunities than I'm all for it.

To see the Snow Leopard move into, what looks like the Bactrian Camel Palace vicinity. is a big improvement in my mind. I loath the current exhibit, and honestly wouldn't mind seeing the Cougars in there.

And I'm slightly confused by the Coyote exhibit, which looks to be the open yard the Bactrian Camel has access to. Seems like a waste of a large exhibit, for a animals with (like @Palorchestes said) no conservation value and very little overall appeal.

I'm also interested in the Big Horn Sheep and Mountain Goat species. I don't no how they hold up conservation wise, but they are both photogenic animals I'd like to get photos of.

Putting the Lynx in the current Chamois exhibit is fine with me, but I wonder if and renovations will be done aside from added security.

Also surprised to see and Bharal/Takin exhibit. I wonder if that's a mixed species exhibit, or either/or situation. either why, I find it surprising.
 
I'm surprised Bharal is considered here when the existing wild goat/sheep species (mouflon, Barbary, and tur) pretty much serve the same purpose. Bharal aren't endangered and in my mind aren't any more or less interesting than the other previously mentioned species (though I've never seen one so that be nice). The tur have more conservation value as it is an endangered species, plus the zoo already has a bunch of them. Maybe because the existing mountain sheep/goat species don't fit nicely into the zoogeographic "upland asia" area being largely European/near east species but that never really stopped the zoo before (im looking at you emerald tree boa in Australasia). Takins are cool but I literally saw one taking the bus to university everyday at Trent (the Peterborough zoo's takin exhibit backs onto the main road through the area). I can't imagine a mix species exhibit. Takin seem very shy and retreating as captives and based on what I know of wild individuals the same holds true. They also prefer different habitats, bharal like rocky mountainous terrain while takin prefer hilly and dense brush/forest (the Peterborough exhibits are quite ideal being thickly vegetated and on a steep hill).
 
@Palorchestes I'm pretty indifferent on the Bharal, especially with the other goat species planned. That being said, their appeal to me is new photo opportunities. Also if the Bharal/Takin exhibit is a either/or situation, I'd rather see the Takin, due to previous indifferent feelings already mentioned.

On a side note the Emerald Tree Boa was mainly there to showcase the Convergent Evolution between it and the Green Tree Python.
 
Part of me is really interested by the changes coming while the other part of me wants to cry or throw things. I'm torn but its because they are messing with some things I really like while adding things I'm hoping I will really like but realizing hope is sometimes miss placed at the zoo.

The front entrance does need updating. I like the consolidation of all the guest amenities up front. The main gift shop as always been a little far away and it never made much sense to me to have a second gift shop so close to the entrance... other then the obvious reason the main was too far away and they were loosing sales. Hopefully the new one will be bigger and better with more selection. Also the peacock cafe its in an awkward place. Close to those bathrooms and zoomobile but kind of a walk from the gates again which probably means they are losing sales as people leave. By moving those facilities closer to the gates and consolidating things there will be less walking for guests, better sales opportunities and more space for animals.

I like the idea of moving the otters up front to the carousel area. The zoo needs a good animal exhibit to greet people right away. It's nice that they are going with a Canadian species that will delight guests as they gather to start their day. Good choice. Although I would much prefer to see a larger scale exhibit that also includes beavers. It would be a nice chance to showcase the iconic Canadian species the beaver with the more lively otter. I think its a mistake not to have those two together. They mention a crawl through so I'm really hoping that translates to underwater viewing for kids and adults. I would be so disappointed not to see them below the water.

The aerial lift from the front to Africa seems cool. I hope it is an enclosed tram so that it is accessible for those in wheel chairs, needing scooters, and the stroller crowd. And reasonably priced.

The main gift shop going to the insects... well I will look once and skip over it every time after that. There are dozens of better ideas for that space. Most insects are easily incorporated in any reno with small tanks. The fact that a whole building will go to animals most people walk by and ignore seems silly. They could easily use that to house birds that are part of the show or other outreach animals. Frankly rip down the building if your going to take away my Australian animals... more on that upsetting turn of events later... use that land to build a smaller pavilion to house the key animals from Australia that TZfan will cry if you take away. Or make a good sized exhibit space for special guest animals on temporary loans. I like the idea of temporary draws but as your going to find out Im hung up on the Australia thing.

Moving the carousel closer to the discovery zone is smart. Center all of those kiddie things.

I don't like the fact they are considering the education center for the Tahr area. Be smart make it rhino space. Use that space for a bigger better barn if you must. If you need an education center so bad back to the main gifts shop then or anywhere else.

I'm ok with losing the lion tailed macaques. Honestly their future as part of the AZA is so up in the air anyway no point in long term plans with them included. However that being said if you are going to rip out that exhibit why not replace it with a bigger better clouded leopard habitat. They could easily have an outdoor and indoor space for the clouded leopards which would vastly improve the space they have. I would also accept bumping out the rhinos even further into that big empty space. Seriously there is no point in all that walking space. Give it to the rhinos, gaur and asian small clawed otters (very interesting since I do not think this mix has ever been done before. I will research that further for us later. I can't see putting the otters into water the rhinos are popping in. Not at all sure this is even a remotely good idea. Though if the babirusa stay on they could easily live with them. I'm very into the arrival of the otters but without underwater viewing I'm going to be disappointed.

I can live with the loss of the Malayan Woods provided I keep the clouded leopards. If not than I'm very upset. They are gorgeous and if they had a stellar exhibit properly designed then we would see more activity from them. And I do like the very open feel of such a small jungle space with their loose birds and butterflies. Compromises could be made to make me happy but I think I'm just going to be mad.

I like the second zipline to a tree top canopy walk off the Indomalayan Pavilion. More experiences. I will skip them personally but people will pay for stupid short rides with views... Tundra Air proved that. Thankfully most of the screaming there will be far from guests so I can live with that.

Disappointing to see we are losing the Sumatran Tigers but so long as we have Amurs I can live with it, especially if by eliminating them we increase the odds I can keep Australian species. The tiger house definitely would need to be ripped out and replaced its so old and small. I would love to see the space redesigned with a big barn for kangaroos, wallabies, emus and maybe the wombats. There is a lot of space that is fenced there and a big barn could provide winter viewing if built say in Kemala's yard with an entrance near the ramp. They wouldn't need a full pavilion. Maybe two or three flex exhibits. During the summer they can also house the birds for free flight. It would be cool but clearly doesn't seem to be in the plans. Take my all my roos, wombats and kookaburras from me and I am going to have a meltdown.

Going Oceania with Indomalaya would be cool if it looked like there were any additions coming to the building. What I see happening is the pavilion being gutted. More than half the space has to be dedicated to the orangs. That's just a given. There will be a huge shed in diversity because there just wont be the space for birds and fish. I think the gibbons are gone unless Lenny and Holly die and they go for a mix with the orangs. I can see the gibbon space going komodo or the hornbill. Either loss would be sad. I'm extremely concerned with the wording of what will be moving from Australiasia... Komodos and key Australian species. I think that means goodbye to all outback species. It will likely mean we keep fish and turtles and maybe the tree kangaroos but the tree kangaroos are so sound sensitive that I have grave doubts keeping them will happen. I think there is a good chance I'm absolutely going to hate this mix and mash.

A remodel of the ramp leading up to Africa is a good idea. It's just getting old and its a bit steep for all those using wheels to travel. Not horrible like the domain but it could be made easier and will look nice redone.

I dont think much is going on with the African Rainforest except renos for the gorilla outdoor and possibly the day room. Sadly no real details. But we have heard things in the past so I'll take that at face value. Is it just me or does it look like exhibit space will open up outside of the pavilion along from the gorillas to the burrows?

I like that they are considering the future of the giraffes. We will have surplus males. It will be hard to ship them south. Simple facts. Being able to hold them in a mixed situation works for me. Frankly being able to house surplus males not just our surplus male calves will be huge because the breeding bull could be rotated out easily.

I can live with the hippos having access to the lower giraffe yards. Gives flexibility. But it doesn't look like they will be getting much more overall space. I still wish someone would listen to me and put them at the top of the domain hill. So much space there to build a great watering hole landscape with hippos, hoofstock, flamingos ect. It would be fantastic. But clearly someone thinks I'm wrong.

I am glad to see all of the habitats will be consolidated. It has been stupid that they are not mixed because one rhino killed one zebra ages ago. Seriously every other zoo houses them just fine. I would like to still see a couple of yards to allow for control. If the males need to be separated from their female offspring fine he goes in one yard while they go in other yards. Lots of mixing and matching can occur that way. Glad to hear gazelle are being considered again. The zoo could use some smaller animals. Hopefully the warthogs wont go but it looks like that is a possibility. It is extremely unlikely they will be mixed with the hoofstock because their digging could cause broken limbs.

The cheetahs being expanded is fine. Nothing sensational but fine. The second yard seems ok but I would rather see the meekats get an outdoor exhibit there or anywhere for that matter. I will not be fussy.

Im happy with the ostrich wildebeest drive through. Do I wish it was the others? Not even going to lie and say most definitely. Will I take that I can get? Darn straight. Just wish it was ostriches and a couple of other species not just wildebeest. I think we made a mistake bringing them back when they cannot live with anything other than ostriches. At least they get a new barn.

I seriously need to stop here and ask a vital question. Why does the zoo continue to waste the space encircled by the ostrich and wildebeest, lions and hyenas service area and the gift shop. Give me my African Wild Dogs! Its a big space that could house predator or prey. Gazelles could go there. A mixed desert with meerkats, aardvarks, porcupines, klipspringers, tortoises, easily could go there with the possibility of winter viewing via a large barn. Dromedary camels, addax, gemsbok could all go there independently or mixed. Frankly the hyenas could get additional space by bumping out that direction so we can easily house Pinduli and Moja and then Echo and Kanzi with their cubs. No need to touch the lion space. USE IT DARN IT!

I don't mind lions and hyenas rotating. I think its telling that the zoo is planning for a family pride of lions and bachelors. What they are trying to tell us is they are having trouble getting homes for the boys. They thought it would be easy to place them and I think because this is a long term goal they were not talking about Lindy and Jerroh as the bachelors. The AZA is not demanding zoos set up space for their pride and bachelors like they do with gorillas. I think this indicates we might have made a mistake breeding white lions or getting them in the first place. Time will tell but something doesn't sit right about needing space for bachelors when Lindy and Jerroh were already 16 and considered geriatric. The plans do confirm the sables are out. I would suspect they are asking the AZA to place both Puff and Savannah. Pity they are my favourite hoofstock currently in the savanna and they have such a tie to the past. Millie and Savannah descended from the zoos original sables.

Still not happy the watusi are staying long term. No one pays any attention to them. I mentioned it before and I will mention it again I want addax and gemsbok. Put them there. I'll take gazelle with them too.

I do appreciate the consideration of closing off the savannas back areas when no one is likely visible. What happened to my winter view of the hippos though? I want winter hippos and giraffes. That gives a slight chance at the mixed exhibit but you know then your going to see two huge draws. On the other end stopping at the lions and hyenas makes sense because they are usually the last out. Wait... darn it they are blocking off prior to the penguins and watusi. K that's stupid.

Tundra trek anyone notice the foxes still on the map?

Big question about the wisdom of expanding the hoofstock. Given that the reindeer currently cannot be replaced with any hoofstock because the soil is contaminated with a potential lethal blood born illness that wiped out the herd... is this a bright idea. I'm really upset that the temple is gone. Let's make this simple leave the temple. Bring in new exhibits in the wasted picnic space no one ever uses under the zip line. Bring in howler monkeys, squirrel monkeys, and move the spider monkeys. Give the jaguars a huge new habitat. Use the jaguars current habitat for ocelots or giant anteaters mixed with sloths. Oh no that walk is long for the poor little guests... I have begged for it since Tundra Trek opened and will continue to nag about it... Build a flipping bridge across the darn drainage ditch they added when Tundra Trek was created. Heck cant cost more then a couple thousand and tell you what give me the supplies and I will learn to build a bridge for you. My plan is a far better use of space. Only thing I like about this plan is they show a picture of muskox and I would be cool with them returning with caribou. Woodland caribou are a worthy species and while the ssp does not support muskox lots of Canadian zoos have them so its doable.

K is it just me or does it look like they are going to add a river through the wolf habitat to the end of the fox habitat. Have I just never noticed water in the wolf exhibit? Honestly admitting I don't pay a ton of attention to Tundra Trek anymore.

I'm not sure I'm seeing the expansion of the polar bear exhibit unless they think that by allowing them access to the grizzlies yard while hibernating counts.

I like the grizzlies getting a lot of space.

I still think I would prefer the beavers with the otters. Maybe its just because I'm so used to them together. No... I want the iconic beaver to great guests at the entrance. I'm fairly sure that's my motivation. Instead this space could house the Canadian pavilion and leave my Australian friends alone. I warned you I was hung up on that.

The bison and elk yards are fine. Hopefully they keep at least some of the roads into the moose and bison and elk yards. I'm not a fan of the fact we cannot see the Asian hoofstock unless the zoomobile is running and you pay for it. We don't need access to the whole exhibit just enough we can look around and see things most of the time. Not asking for much.

What's happening with brand new Eurasia is getting a little crazy.

Love that they are giving me Takin and I'll take bharal. I have been begging for Takin for years so thanks TZ for listening to my plea. If they have to choose between the species give me takin or I will pitch a fit. Takin are at least ssp animals. Just checked and bharal are not even considered. In 2009 only one zoo held them... all 9. Nope TZ skip them. If the Takin need friends... and they don't, bring in Markhor.

Why oh why are they moving the Bactrian camels (hopefully to the drive through not to another zoo) for coyotes? I will let the camels go to the drive through... in fact I always preferred that idea. But coyotes? No. Someone well summed up why they are a terrible choice. The AZA doesn't even want them. No lets use that very large space wisely. While not Canadian I'm suggesting Red Wolves or Mexican Grays. Both have high conservation status. Both have active recovery programs our pups could play a role in highlighting the conservation work the zoo does very well. I would just as easily accept more of the exhibit space going to the lynx and it being subdivided up into multiple swift fox exhibits... also a high conservation ssp supported species with Canadian value as well. There three much more worthy candidates.

I may pitch a fit if they are taking my sea eagles from me. I would rather keep my sea eagles and give up all the bald eagles. Done. Moving on. Clearly the balds are moving into the sea eagles exhibit and the great horned or whatever owl we have at that time will get the Eurasian Eagle Owl exhibit. I don't think we will lose the Eagle Owls though. They will likely go outreach. The sea eagles will go to another AZA facility.

I love all the work done for the new snow leopard exhibit they will lose to the cougars. Enough said.

I like the tur exhibit going mountain goat. I do want them. Not ssp but accepted as educational stock.

The barbary sheep exhibit going bighorn is cool. All species are kept in the AZA but the desert big horn is SSP so they may go for that variety and no one will be the wiser but us sticklers. I will let it go if its for the good of an SSP.

Looks like a small exhibit space will open up between the big horn and tigers... I will take anything there I guess.

I like the snow leopards seem to be getting even more space. I think the move is being done so they can possibly rotate the snow leopards and tigers for more stimulation down the line.

Thanks for not touching the red pandas.

I also think exhibit space is opening up west of the big horns and south of the beavers. If you must put your coyotes there.

Shall I go over my hatred of the plans for Australiasia again? GO bulid a pavilion elsewhere and leave me my roos and wombats. First they take edge of the night, then they open and take away the walk through roo habitat before I even knew it existed, now this. They are trying to kill me. Goodbye my friends come 2018. If I settle down and be reasonable... if... Australiasia is the prefect pavilion to convert for the animals they are thinking about. Don't know what will go in the tree kangaroos yet. In the aviary goes the shrikes and other birds, the turtles chill in the pond. The snakes go in the snake space. The ferrets go in the wombats space while marmots go in the Komodo space. Atlantic salmon go in the reef. Its a simple conversion. I do not understand why a big picnic area is needed in the kangroo space. Your barely in the zoo and the caribou cafe is not that far away. I would accept another tiger yard there or black bears something more sensible.

Hard to discuss the americas pavilion. Clearly last on the list its got no vision but thats hard to do when it will be a final phase and who knows what will be available to stock it.

I do like the more centralized kids stuff.

Darn it if I want to tour the health center I need a guided tour. I was afraid this would happen. I wanted a free tour.

I like that the domain will still house breeding herds but will also be repurposed as a get away in the city. If they build what they are showing pictures of that's kinda cool.

I will leave out the total lack of logic in their time table.... Nope cannot ignore it. So 2018 they redo Australiasia as Canada and Indo Malaya gets ignored til 2026. They are straight up telling us with that forget Australian species. They are all gone. Have to be to do the reno. Why I don't get it do Indo first make room then go to Canada with an empty pavilion. And the Canadian stock leaves the Americas which is ignored til a decade later in 2028. Sure they can bring in fillers for a decade but this isn't the logical pattern. The new gift shop is due in 2029 but the old one was already converted in whats listed as earlier 2029 but technically it looks like they have a typo and the new one should be due in 2030. No gift shop for a year makes sense.

My head hurts, part me wants to cry, the other part says yippie otters and takin. I'm honestly no where near as happy as I was hoping I would be. Clearly I expected too much... or at least logic.
 
TZFan, thanks for that incredibly in-depth review of the plan. Your passion for the Australia animals gives me a new appreciation for them.

I like your idea for putting some of the Australian species in the sumatran tiger exhibit. From the looks of the current map the north tiger enclosure will completely disappear, but that would leave the larger habitat there. It would be an awkward empty space between the Oceania Pavilion and the pathway, so I think something needs to go there. Aside from the from the Australian animals you mentioned, I cannot see what other animals would fit there. Maybe a rather large gibbon exhibit?

They have 12 million budgeted for upgrades to the African rainforest aside from the gorilla expansion, and like you say no clear indication of what they plan for that building. That money could be set up for operational upgrades to the building, but the price tag seems a little steep.
Nice pick up on the exhibit space opening up outside of the pavilion along from the gorillas to the burrows. As a guess, could that maybe used for the warthogs?

I love your hippo idea, but I think cost is the major inhibitor to that. They have set aside 8 million for the hippos, granted that is an estimate, but I still think that is on the low end of what it will be. Cincinnati spent around the 8 million US dollars mark I believe on their hippo exhibit. By the time Toronto gets to hippos in 13 years, I think that cost will be much higher. Your idea for the exhibit at the top of the domain hill I think would be even higher in cost.
With that said, I think the hippo plans are still very much open to input. They still have a the current holding area on the map along with a "hippo holding location option." I would speculate that decisions on that new exhibit are still in flux.
On this topic, is it me or is there an increase yard space there for the Giraffe/Hippo grazing. It looks like there are the current two yards for the giraffes and an additional yard near the hippo holding option.

I agree on having the mixed species habitats and the need for a couple of yards for control. I would guess there is sufficient space there that it is quite doable to block off portions of the yard to separate animals temporarily if needed.

Intriguing with the cheetah expansion is that there is no public access to view the expanded yard.

I have long wondered the same about the space by the wildebeest, lions, ostrich and hyenas. On the new map though, that area does not seem to be publicly accessible. So I can see not planning to put anything there long term. I would guess the aim is not to have people walk in that direction only to have to backtrack. As an aside, it appears the ostrich and wildebeest will only be available to view from the zoomobile and that little hut across from the baboons.

I initially thought the same regarding the lion space. But if you look at the timelines, the Savanna improvements are scheduled until 2029. By that point the current group of cubs will be up there in years (I feel old typing this). It does not seem logical that the plan would call for creating a new space for the current cubs that far into the future. I wonder if they are more planning to expand the lion collection later on and/or preparing in case of future births.

I think cost wise it is much more realistic to renovate the Tropical Americas building than to fill the empty space between the Temple and the building with exhibits. Your suggestion is much more ideal, but I think the master plan is more realistic. As for building a bridge, I'd offer to help you build it, but I'm useless with tools.

Good point about the river through the wolf habitat. That part of the map looks odd. In some ways the wolf habitat looks expanded, but in other ways it looks the same. The best guess I have is that the current river in the area is being expanded.

I think the extra space for the polar bears is based on rotating access.

I share your love of Takins.

An intriguing idea about rotating the tigers and snow leopards. Personally, I hope they aren't putting the snow leopards in the tiger exhibit. Reason being that would likely require the entire tiger exhibit to be fenced in and I'm optimistic for some obstruction free photos of the tigers.

Overall I'm of a much more favourable opinion of the plan. But then again I am not as committed to the Australian species as you are.
 
To build on some of you points @TZFan.

In terms of the entrance, I also like the idea, and I’m also hoping for an underwater viewing element. Taking that away would be foolish. As for the Beavers, I don’t mind not seeing them there. They are nocturnal animals, so chances of them being seen are low. Why let peoples first experience be a partial letdown. Moving around gift shop and whatnot is also smart. Streamline everything to become more accessible.

Moving the Carousal to the old Pony ride area is smart.

I somehow missed that Aerial Lift in the Pridelands. Very smart, if they do as you say.

Changing the main giftshop into an insect building is unexpected, but I’ve only ever been in there once. If they fill it with all kinds of Insects, it could be interesting. But, yes, it could become a potentially ignored building, seeing little to no foot traffic.

The Education Centre doesn’t look to be going where the Tahr are located. That space seems to indeed be going to the Indian Rhinos. The Education Centre looks to be going around where the TTC bus pull into. Weird, but that’s what I’m reading from the map.

Turning the Macaque building into an outdoor exhibit for the Clouded Leopard is a very smart idea. That would be awesome to see. I’d rather not lose this species, as I don’t see them mentioned anywhere else in the master plan. I’m indifferent on losing the Malayan Woods, as long as the Clouded Leopards are kept, with an upgraded exhibit.

Funny that one part of the plan mentions Rhinos with Otters, and another part throws in Gaur. Honestly, I’m not sure how that combo of species will work.

I personally rather keep the Tiger (even if the Amur Tigers are brought back), but that’s solely because it’s a good conservation story for educational purposes. I wouldn’t be surprised if nearly all the Australasia animals are moved to the Oceania Pavilion, especially considering Australasia is part of the Oceania region globally.

More on the Oceania Pavilion. It looks like a complete gut to me as well, at least that would be ideal. Currently the Pavilion has a lot of wasted space, mainly due to its pathways. A new and better design could see more animals than we have in there currently. With the Orangs moving out, which looks completely now, that’ll free up even more space. And I don’t see a problem with putting the Gibbons with the Orangs considering all the other mixed species exhibits. With all that in consideration, moving all or most of the Australasia (Tree Kangaroo, Kangaroos, Wallaby, and Wombat) animals in the new Oceania Pavilion shouldn’t be a problem.

The Gorilla outdoor area does look to open down to the burrows, plus an expansion of the current outdoor exhibit. Makes sense since they want to be able to have 2 groups. A family group and Bachelor group.

I also wish the Hippo exhibit would have been made bigger, and it looks possible in the current plan by increasing the size of the third, currently unused yard of the Giraffe exhibit. But I like you plan on where to move them.

The Cheetah expansion doesn’t make sense to me, aside from giving the zoomobile a better chance of seeing Cheetahs, which is fine, as long as the visitors on the walking path are still guaranteed a view of them. In other words, I hope the extension isn’t made so the cheetah can all hide back there and out of sight.

I agree with you 100% on the unused space around the Hyenas and Lions. 100%!!

I personally don’t mind the Watusi. I find them incredible photogenic. More so than I thought before.

I’m not sure I fully understand the winter pathway plan. Can’t seem to wrap my head around it. As far as I can tell indoor viewing for Hippos and Giraffe’s will still be a thing.

Definitely noticed the Foxes. That could change.

I completely agree with you on the Mayan Temple Ruins, especially with the contaminated soil.

Polar Bear expansion, from what I can tell, is mainly to move around Polar Bears into the Grizzly area, for overflow of stock with Polar Bear breeding.

I’ve already voice my opinion of the Asian Highlands.
 
Hey everyone! I know it's been a very long time since I last posted here, so I'm sorry about that. I recently started university, and my interest in zoos began to fade for a while. However, it's been coming back recently, and the new master plan definitely pushed me to want to come back to ZooChat. I know that a lot of you have already posted your opinions of these new changes, so here are mine:

The new entrance idea looks really good. I like that it will look more modern and all the amenities will be easier to access. The new river otter exhibit sounds like a good idea to excite visitors at the beginning of their day at the zoo. I never liked that the carousel was the first thing people see at the zoo, since the focus should be on animals, not rides.

I was very surprised by the idea of an insect house. I've always thought that one of the gift shops should be used for animal exhibits, so that made me happy, but I do find it strange the zoo, which has always had a zoogeographic theme, would decide to have a taxonomic exhibit. Also, the zoo already has an amazing insect collection spread between the pavilions, so I don't understand why it needs to be concentrated in one building. Does this mean there will be no insects in the other pavilions? The main reason why I'm a little disappointed with this idea is I think there are better things that could have been done with the gift shop. Like TZFan, I would have liked for a small Australian area to go here. However, I'm still optimistic, and the one thing that I'm really hoping they include in this insect house is a butterfly walkthrough, since the Malayan Woods is shutting down.

I like that the zoo wants to have a big focus on the Indian rhinos. While it's definitely not a common mix, I feel like I've heard of rhinos being mixed with otters before. Asian small clawed otters are a species that I've thought should join the zoo for a while now, so I think it's a good idea.

I'm not too sad about losing the lion tailed macaques, but I do wish they'd use the space for another species. I like the Malayan Woods pavilion, but other than the clouded leopards, there's not much I would miss about it. Most of the species there could probably be moved to the Oceania Pavilion anyways.

Speaking of the Oceania Pavilion, I think it's a weird idea. While I do think it could work, I'm disappointed that the zoo will no longer have an area totally dedicated to Australasian species. Obviously I'm happy that the orangutans will have an outdoor exhibit, and hopefully they can be mixed with gibbons, which is pretty common in the zoo world. I was also thinking that the tiger exhibit should be used for kangaroos and emus, since not having a large kangaroo species would be a loss for the zoo. Hopefully they'll be able to renovate the Indomalaya Pavilion to have enough room for all of these new species, and I won't be too worried until we actually see the plans for the new pavilion.

It doesn't seem like much will change with the African Rainforest Pavilion, but I'm happy that the gorillas will be getting a better outdoor exhibit.

I like that the hippos will get underwater viewing, but it's a little sad that in the African Savanna, the giraffes and hippos will have two of the smallest exhibits. I love that a big mixed species exhibit will be created, as it's something I've wanted to zoo to do for a while now. I agree with TZFan that something more exciting should be brought in to replace the Watusi.

The Tropical Americas Pavilion could be great, but there's not enough information to really understand what the plans are for it. I'm a little sad about the Mayan Temple being removed, but as long as the jaguars and flamingos remain at the zoo, I'll be fine.

Expanding the reindeer exhibit for "tundra herds" seems a little strange considering what I've read in the past few posts, but I would be happy to see musk oxen back at the zoo. I know that Tundra Trek is still a pretty recent exhibit, but I was hoping that some renovations would be made to the wolf exhibit to provide better viewing opportunities.

We've known about the Canadian Domain animals moving for a while, but I'm still happy to see that all (except for the raccoons) will be returning in more accessible exhibits. I like the addition of mountain goats and bighorn sheep, and think the cougars would fit nicely in the snow leopard exhibit. I also think coyotes are a bit of an odd choice for the camel exhibit, but they are a local top carnivore species, and could have a good educational purpose. I'm just hoping the camels get moved to the drive through area instead of being sent to other zoos. Building another new snow leopard exhibit is interesting, but if it's even better than the current one, how can I complain? Takin are a species I've wanted to see at the zoo for a while, so nice to see them in the plans. I was also happy to see the return of Amur tigers.

Finally, I'll briefly talk about the Canadian Pavilion. While in theory I think it's a good idea, I also think the Australasia Pavilion is very large for a bunch of small Canadian animals. The other problem I see is that there won't be a star species to draw visitors in. Africa has gorillas, Oceania has orangutans and Komodo dragons, tropical americas has lots of monkeys, and Canada has marmots. While that may excite zoo fans, I don't think the general public will be as happy with a pavilion featuring a bunch of small, non-exotic creatures. I would love to be proven wrong though, and despite my negative comments, I still love the idea of having an area focused on endangered native species. It's just sad that it has to replace my favourite part of the zoo.

Well that's all I want to say for now, but I'm sure I'll have plenty more comments about this master plan in the future, which means I probably won't be able to stay away for such a long time anymore.
 
Good to see you again @arcticwolf. Hope all's well at university. Glad to see your interest in the zoo return.

After a quick search, I found that Indian Rhinos and Asian Small-Clawed Otters are capable of sharing an exhibit. They do so at Basel Zoo (Zoo Basel) in Switzerland. They even share the exhibit with Muntjac as well.

I'm surprised to see the frustration over the Australasia removal. Never expected that reaction. Plus, I'm under the assumption, if not all, than most of the animals from Australasian will be moved to the Oceania Pavilion.

In terms of the Tropical Pavilion, I just want a better Jaguar exhibit. If they can pull that off, I'm fine with loosing the Mayan Temple Ruins.

The Tundra Herd is still boggling my mind. Unless a full reconstruction and decontamination of some kind is done, Hoofstock can't be in the exhibit. Hopefully more info on this will come up at some point.
 
I personally don't think the existing large mammals in Australasia (with the exception of the tree kangaroo) will jive well with the theme of the Oceania pavilion. None of the other species are rainforest species (neither are Komodo dragons for that matter) and having naturalistic exhibits for them in an obviously rainforest themed area will seem weird. I seriously doubt the zoo would use the Sumatran tiger space for any exhibits as they are pushing the whole reforestation thing (remember the rational for removing Malayan woods and macaques is for reforestation which I already expressed my doubts on the effectiveness of this idea in a previous post). The whole Australasia gutting plan is by far my biggest concern with this plan and clearly others feel at least similar especially when you consider the timeline points brought up by TZFan (great work going through that I did not realize the potential complete loss of Australasian species for an extended time period which is crazy and really sad for us dedicated zoo fans). In an ideal world i'd like to see the former lorikeet feeding area in Australasia be walled/roofed and turned into an outback desert themed space (or alternativly bring back the wonderful edge of night) with perentie or spencer's monitors, fierce snake, desert fishes like spangled perch, bandicoots, death adder, etc.

The insect house is unfavorable in my mind. Not because I dislike insects (I love em) but as mentioned by arcticwolf it seems out of place in a zoogeographically organized zoo (thats the way it has always and should always be organized). If we loose the warthogs and babirusa im going to be real mad as wild pigs are my favorite animals. I'd love to see one of those 770 lb Manchurian wild boars (Sus scrofa ussuricus) in some of that empty space in Eurasia (I know of no zoo of any sort that holds this subspecies, largest of the pigs).
 
Just curious, but where does it mention that the Oceania Pavilion is rainforest specific?
 
No where but the pavilion was designed to be a rainforest building. It might be difficult to balance all those climatic considerations in one giant open air building. The current Australasian pavilion has separate rooms between areas.
 
I don't think that is actually mentioned anywhere that the pavilion would only have rainforest animals, but it would be weird having Australian desert species next to ones from the Asian rainforest. It could definitely happen though, just like how the African "Rainforest" Pavilion is home to meerkats.
 
I see, so the assumption is continuity and climate control. The way I see if, those rules can definitely be bent, just as @arcticwolf said, like with the Meerkats in the African Pavilion.

I can see the majority of the animals being moved in the Oceania Pavilion without sacrificing much room for other species.
 
I hope you're right cypher. That's why I said in my first post that I won't get too worried about the Oceania pavilion until I see the plans for it.
 
M30t I like the gibbon exhibit idea for the sumatrans but gibbons could easily be integrated with the orangs provided the right orangs and gibbons are together. Lenny and Holly don't like others. Given we are looking at 10 years before that's considered its highly likely they wont be around. Orangs are commonly mixed with gibbons, siamangs and langurs so those are all possibilities.

The wasted space by the lions, hyenas and ostriches does stretch the the picnic area by the gift shop, the new aerial drop off and could be shaped to allow viewing from the watusi path. Really believe that one is doable.

I gripped about lions before looking at the timeline. Bachelor males still seems dumb.

Cypher, the education center has two potential locations. One is the parking lot the other is the Tahr. I will give up parking gladly for the rhinos.

Where do you think they will have space in Oceania for wombats, wallabies, two very different types of kangaroos? I can see some birds being salvaged and some reptiles. I want my mammals. Considering how the orangs dominate the pavilion now and trust me they will need more space as requirements keep growing... I didn't get anything from the plan that made me think the orangs will just move out and take over the gaur exhibit. No way they will lose their money makers for 6-7 months a year. None at all. I just don't see how it will be possible to merge the two pavilions and keep a fraction of the species. Especially when Australiasia will go long before Indo is ready for conversion. They are going and I highly doubt they will be back.

Welcome back arcticwolf!

In the end I think all we can do is sit back and wait for things to unfold. Anything happening in the near future, say the next 5 or so years, is fairly certain. Anything beyond that is just a rough idea of what may or may not happen and the actual designers of the exhibits when renos happen will be the ones making the decisions. A ton of decisions will come down to cost and animal availability.

Wait I want wolverines. Someone find some space for wolverines. Just need to put it back out to the universe again since griping enough seems to have got me the possibility of takin and asian small clawed otters.
 
I think it's possible for most of the Australasian species to be transferred to the Indomalaya Pavilion. If the orangutans remain in their current exhibit and the gibbons move in with them, the Komodo dragons can take the gibbon exhibit. Tree kangaroos can live where the hornbills are by the pavilion's exit. The grey kangaroos, wallabies, and emus can live in the tiger exhibit as previously mentioned. Australasian birds can mix with Indomalayan birds in the walk through area, and some of the reptile exhibits can be converted for Australasian species. Finally the large Indomalayan tank under the waterfall can be turned into an Indo-Pacific reef, which can house most of the current Great Barrier Reef species. The only animal that I don't know what to do with is the wombats. Another, more expensive option is to completely change the layout of the pavilion to include more exhibit space, like what was done with the African Rainforest.

I would also love to see wolverines at the zoo. They should go in the exhibit that is currently planned to have coyotes.
 
Okay, I see what you're talking about for the Education Centre. Put that in the Parking area. More room for the Rhinos.

About the Lions. With the plans for the Savanna improvement to transition into the Pridelands still 13 or so years away, I don't find it practical that this is a plan for our current lion stock. Fintan Makali and Lemon would be around, assuming they're still alive would be around 18 years old. Offspring would most likely be grown, unless the zoo has trouble getting rid of cubs over time, whether it's the current boys or any future cubs. I personally think, depending on how hard it is to ship out these boys, the zoo should look in getting Tawny Lions at a young age. That way, when the renos to the exhibit are done, We'd have separate prides of whites and tawnys.

But a Bachelor group of Lions seems weird, despite is being a possibility.

For the Australasia animals to fit in the Oceania Pavilion, a overhaul of the Pavilion will need to be done. There's lots of wasted space, due to it's current nature. The entrance of the Pavilion is a large open space with no animals in sight. An exhibit, roughly the size of the current Tree Kangaroo can fit in that area with a overhaul. The waterfall area can revamped to include a species there, and even more room, if the waterfall and pool is removed. moving around and combining the indoor Orang exhibit with the Gibbion exhibit saves a lot of space. And all the can be done without utilizing the Sumatran Tiger exhibit, which at this point will be empty, if they do indeed phaseout the Tigers. Moving around animals in the current design won't get the job done. the Pavilion needs to be overhauled with major changes. If anything, it's a shame they are looking to abandon the North Tiger exhibit, leaving a large piece of land empty.
 
Couple things I wanted to address, some of it being talking points some of you already mentioned.

Firstly, yes Wolverines in the proposed Coyote exhibit, or even in the empty lot north of the Canada Pavilion.

The is no water source in the Arctic Wolf exhibit. Not sure why it's coded as "existing water".

The one thing the Canada Pavilion does indeed need a main animal draw. Otherwise people will think about going in there rather than we have to see, "such and such".

What do you all think of the Carolinian Forest. Out of everything being proposed, I see this one getting to highest chance of being declined, scaled down or pushback continually. I just don't think the zoo is going to want people walking on a boardwalk in the trees.

Also, what do you all make of no mention of the Maglev proposal?
 
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