Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Developments 2017

Stopped in at the zoo today for a few hours. A few observations and questions: (Long time reader, second time commenter so observations won't be in the same detail as the others posters)
-Josephine doesn't look like she's in top form. It appears as if her arthritis is quite severe. 45 years old so it is what it is. Talked to the keeper and she said they may ship out Nneka's half sister (name is slipping my mind) depending on how long Charles is with us for.
-Giraffes look great. They are bonding and very close. Curious to see if they are going to add to the herd. It seems that they have ample space due to the fact that they are using the elephant exhibit.
-Hari wasn't in his exhibit but was in the small tiger house connected to Kemala's exhibit. She was keeping her distance from him.
-Curious to see what Calgary will do with the panda cubs once they have to be separated. Do they have the capacity to have all 4 in separate exhibits?
-The orangutan exhibit is quite the depressing place so I am looking forward to the renovations to occur. Puppe looks miserable by herself in her exhibit. i hope she has the chance to experience the new and improved enclosure.
 
Hope you're sticking around to continue posting in the future @Leo. New viewpoints and always helps the conversation move forward.

I believe the Gorilla you're referring to (Nneka's half sister) is Johari, which is confusing as I wouldn't think they would send her away. Also, both Charles and Josephine are quite old, and could potentially pass at a moments notice, despite no one wanting that. Hopefully Vet staff can make Josephine more comfortable.

Calgary has mentioned that they are prepared to receive all 4 panda, and plan on future breeding opportunities, but only time will tell what will actually happen.

And we're all hoping Puppe lives to see the outdoor exhibit finish in 2018.
 
I think it's unlikely gorilla, Johari (that's the name that slipped your mind) will go anywhere. The current AZA recommendation is to have a troop with three adult females. It is more hassle then it is worth to ship Johari out. They would have to send her south as Calgary has three adult females of breeding age, plus a maturing female and infant and Granby just houses bachelors. Plus they would then have to replace Johari so another female would have to come up. A far less disruptive plan is retire Charles and Josephine. Send Sadiki and Nassir to Granby. And bring in a new male to serve as troop leader, best bet Jawara from Granby. My money is on that plan. Something will have to be decided soon as Nneka is three and Ngozi will be ready to breed in the next year.

There are plans in place for the giraffes. Kiko and Mstari will likely be allowed to breed in the next year or so. While in Calgary Nabo will breed with Marcie (can't remember what they have renamed her). Their female calves are to be swapped and in turn breed with the male at the other zoo. I wouldn't expect any other female giraffes to arrive for three years minimum. Kiko is just not that valuable where as Mstari is the number one female in North America. Marcie is highly rated as well as Nabo.

Generally speaking with the pandas Toronto will be the ones to separate the cubs from Er Shun. That should be done sometime in the next four our five months. Twins are usually kept together afterward until they are maturing. Calgary will only need three exhibits. One for Da Mao, one for the twins and one for Er Shun and future cubs. Er Shun should be ready to breed again in the spring of 2018 provided they arrive and settle in. By the time new cubs would be ready to separate the twins will have returned to China.

Puppe always has a deep soulful look on her face. She's seen a lot in her life from her mother being killed to capture her to her son's tragic death. I do hope with all my heart she lives to be outside even just one day.
 
Thanks for the responses! Great insight! When talking to the keepers, they said that both boys would be staying at the zoo for the immediate future so I don't know how they would be able to have three groups of gorillas rotating throughout the exhibit and their sleeping quarters. Wouldn't be a quality of life for Charles and Josephine in their final years. As the most iconic animals ever at the Toronto Zoo (in my opinion), Charles and Josephine don't deserve to be retired and separated from their family.
 
In the immediate future no Sadiki and Nassir are going no where. The SSP will make the final call on that one I think fairly soon. If Charles is to remain in charge of the troop they might stay but they could just as easily be sent to Granby. They have space for bachelor boys. They have the space for at least 4 as they previously held big brother Subira (now in Dallas on breeding loan), along with Calgary boys Nsabi (now dead), Jawara and Zwalani.

Retiring Charles and Josephine isn't something that would be done to rob them of the troop. It would be done to provide them with a quieter relaxed life. Many zoos remove adult gorillas their age from family troops to give them a break from the antics of youngsters. If Sadiki and Nassir do leave that would easily provide the zoo with the option to let our seniors enjoy their twilight year in peace. Don't forget you just mention Josephine has arthritis and might not enjoy the antics of Nneka. Plus Charles has a heart condition common among silverbacks so his health is not the best either.

As to Charles retiring there are a lot of reasons he might get pulled from breeding. Biggest reason to keep him breeding is that he is a wild born founder. They might want one more from him. But realistically he is no longer as genetically valuable as he once was. He is the father of 8 surviving offspring Sekani, Jomo, Subira Johari, Shalia, Sadiki, Nassir and Nneka. He is the grandfather to a further 6, Mosi and Adelina (Sekani's offspring), Bakari, Mondika,and Elle (Jomo's offspring) and Suliaman (Shalia's offspring). Plus Sekani is ready to breed with her new silverback Kivu (who's mother Zira once lived at the zoo) and Subira is in a breeding position with potential to breed three females in his troop in the coming years. Even young Mosi and Bakari will be silverback candidates in another 6-10 years. Charles will be well represented. All of his sons are considered more valuable then him... except Nassir but that is due to his maternal grandfather Vip's representation. Where as the male I think will ultimately succeed him, Jawara, is more valuable then all other Toronto owned gorilla's except big brother N'tondo. Jawara's father is a European import and his mother Julia was once of Toronto's original six so was wild born. He is a prime candidate to breed with both Ngozi and Johari.

Second reason to pull Charles is timing. An infant sired by him within the next year will likely be small when he passes. He probably wont survive the 4 years before Ngozi will be read again. This could create a problem if the infant is male. Should Charles die during pregnancy or before the infant is three the incoming male may want to kill it. If its a girl no sibling its age would be ok but a boy would need a male sibling born within 4 to 5 years of him to bond with forming a natural bachelor group. A boy would require the zoo to wait until 3-4 years old before introduction of a new male (usually). That means Johari cannot be bred until that time. That gives the zoo two shots at a male sibling before the window closes. A new male coming in right away would mean both Johari and Ngozi can be bred around the same time giving 4 possibly pregnancies to produce brothers. Add to the timing issue that Johari is now ready to breed and has had an opportunity to watch Ngozi mother twice. A new male for her is perhaps more important than Charles breeding one last time.

Third reason if Jawara is the intended male he is now prime age to assume responsibility for a group. With the death of eldest brother Nsabi who would have been prefect to take over Calgary's troop, Granby is down to two. The SSP might prefer to send he and baby brother Zwalani (who coincidentally enough is the grandson of Josephine and the late great Barney) to head up their own troops and free up space in a bachelor's only pad. Prefect place to send Sadiki and Nassir and another brother group just maturing. Unfortunately Zwalani is a poor choice for Calgary as Zuri is his half aunt. But there are plenty of troops in the US and one could probably use a young Canadian at the helm.

Fourth reason is that if Jawara is available they can keep Johari and thus keep ownership of every infant born at the zoo for the foreseeable future. Toronto has always owned every gorilla born there. Jawara is owned by the zoo since his mom Julia belonged to the zoo. Johari oblivious belongs. Ngozi belongs because her mother Amanda is Toronto owned (sadly the only offspring we got out of that deal too). If maintaining ownership of offspring matters to the zoo they can own all babies born to them easily by asking the ssp to send Jawara to Toronto. If interested in ownership Toronto officially owns 24 gorillas, with 4 in immediate breeding positions and an additional 6 or so in position to breed again in two or so years so that number will grow.

Charles - Toronto
Josephine - Toronto
Jomo - Cincinnati as silverback
Bakari (Jomo's son) - Oklaholma bachelor group
Johari - Toronto
Mbundi (Josephine and Barney's grandson via Tabitha) - Gladys Porter as silverback
Zwalani (Josephine and Barney's grandson via Tabitha) - Granby bachelor group
Catherine (Caroline and Baney's daughter) - Little Rock but sterilized due to medical issues
Sekani - Little Rock
Adelina (Sekani's daughter) - Little Rock
Subira - Dallas as silverback
Shalia - Milwaukee
Sulaiman (Shalia's son) - Milwaukee
Sadiki - Toronto bachelor
Ngozi - Toronto
Nassir - Toronto
Nneka - Toronto
Ntondo (Julia's son) - Bronx as silverback
Jawara (Julia's son) - Granby bachelor
Barika (Julia's daughter) - Sedgwick
Alika (Barika's daughter) - Sedgwick
Patrick (Barney's son) - Riverbanks bachelor who will never breed due to behavioural issues.
Zuri (Barney's daughter) - Calgary
Yewande (Zuri's daughter) - Calgary

Clearly I could go on for days about the gorillas.
 
That's quite the breakdown on Gorillas connected to Toronto. Once my head stopped spinning, I see that you seem to have everything figured out. Hopefully, those in charge of the SSP are thinking along the same lines as you. Great Job.
 
I know cypher time to bask in my obsessive nature. Sad part is I have a photo family tree for all gorillas connected to Toronto. That list I provided are just the owned gorillas. I left out any gorilla descending from the original 7 but belonging to another zoo. The total living gorillas connected from the zoo is 39. Gorillas not on the list of owned...

Mondika (Jomo's daughter) - Cincinnati
Elle (Jomo's daughter) - Cincinnati
Mosi (Sekani's son) - Lincoln Park bachelor
Oliver (Barney's son) - Columbus silverback
Kamoli (Oliver's son) - Columbus
Paki ( Barney's daughter) - Lousiville
Pendeka (Paki's son) - Detroit bachelor
Husani (Barney's son) - Hogel bachelor
Asha (Barney's daughter) - Cheyenne
Tumane (Asha's daughter) - Cheyenne
Dembe (Asha's son) - Cheyenne
Calaya (Amanda's daughter) - National Zoo
Uzumma (Amanda's daughter) - Woodland Park
Kivu (Zira's son) - Little Rock silverback

6 of those are in immediate breeding situations.
 
By the way I can be just about as detailed regarding the orangs, indian rhinos, sumatran tigers, amur tigers and snow leopards.
 
Your depth of knowledge and insight never ceases to amaze me TZFan.
One question I have, if they were to separate Charles and Josephine, which as you documented there is a compelling case for doing so, what would happen when one of them passes? Would that leave the other on their own for the rest of their life? That is my only concern there.
I really appreciate that list, having been to many of those US zoos it is rather intriguing to see how many of the gorillas I have seen there that have roots back to Toronto.
 
What would happen to Josephine or Charles should the other pass would depend a lot on health. Technically Jo could stay in the group with the new silverback on a rotational basis even if Charles is separated. She could timeshare between groups. If she's being removed for health reasons then she would be in the same position as Charles should she pass. They would still get visual contact with the other gorillas but would be physically separated. Keepers would increase their interactions with them as well but they would be alone most of the time. It's not ideal but its better then moving around geriatric gorillas to form new groups. The SSP tries to avoid this situation but ultimately as gorillas age it cannot be helped. They try to set up zoos with older gorillas before they get to the don't move them point. No one would be nearly as worried about what might happen if Samantha hadn't died so much sooner then Charles and Jo. Alone time isn't so bad for them. Some gorillas prefer to pull themselves away from all the action as they age anyway. I don't think Jo gets into the mix that often these days anyway and while Charles is still involved as silverback he seems to enjoy his alone time as well. He's not as into his kids as he once was. They might actually relish alone time.

I think Charles will be first to pass though. He is male. He is already well past the average life expectancy for a male and is nearing the top end of the scale for males. It's sad but I think each day we get with Charles at this point should be considered a blessing. Jo could be with us another 10 to 15 years. She could easily spend some time with the group or Johari and her infants could be separated from the troop for a couple hours a day to give Josephine stimulation and socialization. She would probably love to dote on her grandchild. Actually they may prefer to keep her as part of the group until they know how Johari will handle her first baby. They may need Josephine to serve as surrogate.

There are always lots of balls in the air when making a decision that is best for the individual gorillas, the troop, and the population as a whole. Time will tell what will happen.
 
Wow. What an encyclopedia you are when it comes to gorillas! I am beyond impressed. Since you are so versed in terms of orangutans as well, what is the plan for all of the sub-adults? Who will be the breeding male and how do you see that situation unfolding?
 
I thought I kind of covered what will happen with the troop already. Maybe I wasn't clear. Here's what I see unfolding.

Charles will either die as silverback or be retired with Jo. Death makes everything easier but I love Charles too much to wish him ill. Retirement means Jo and Charles live a quieter life together. With the outdoor exhibit, day room and indoor exhibit plus the back bedrooms there is space for a second group. So Charles is gone from the group, what next?

Toronto will send our bachelor boys Sadiki and Nassir to Granby. I'm 100% convinced this is exactly where the boys are heading eventually. It is far easier to send them to Quebec then shipping them across the border with all the paperwork and transport regulations. Plus they are then just taking up space that two American bachelors could use. Granby has bachelor pad which given Jawara and Zwalani's ages and genetic value will be vacant soon enough. That then would mean if they wasted time sending Sadiki and Nassir south another group of gorillas would need to be send north. Why not skip that step and just send our boys there in the first place.

Ngozi and Johari would stay on as the breeding females. Why move them or split them up when they get along well and are genetically diverse from each other? They would probably breed Ngozi first again with the new silverback because it would give Johari another chance to watch good mothering before she welcomes her first baby. This is critical since Johari was partially hand reared the first several months because Josephine has never been able to provide enough milk for her infants. Plus she didn't have a full baby brother or sister to watch Josephine rear and practice with. Sure she has watched Ngozi and Samantha but I think her level of involvement with Sadiki, Nassir and Nneka has been small. Josephine would have let her carry a baby brother or sister and babysit. Not that a sibling from Josephine would have been best because she would then think babies should be bottle fed by keepers. Watching Ngozi with a newborn shortly before becoming a mom herself will probably help. Although the SSP may prefer Johari going first. The reason for that is it will be her first attempt at motherhood. Should she not handle it well and reject the infant Ngozi will be right there ready and very likely willing to serve as surrogate. Breeding Ngozi would be good but because her father Vip is well represented getting as many infants from her as possibly wont be the highest priority in the world, especially now that her baby sisters are breeding age. She could miss a breeding cycle to serve as surrogate. Alternatively Josephine already has experience with hand reared infants since she did get Jomo and Johari back that way (her older kids Tabitha, Minkebe and Jabari were totally hard reared and never returned for her to raise) but she is older. Might not be the best idea to give an infant to Josephine who could pass during its early years. That decision will be made in conjunction with the SSP. The baby could also be shipped to Calgary too with two experienced moms or even south of the border where Columbus and Cincinnati are experts with surrogacy and there are larger troops with plenty of viable moms. Birth order aside Ngozi and Johari will be the breeding females. Perhaps a third adult female might arrive since zoos are supposed to have three adult females.

Nneka obviously stays on for the time being at least. She will benefit from watching Ngozi and Johari as moms. Ngozi would let her participate so she would also get experience. By the time she is 9 a decision will be made about her future. She could be sent south to any number of zoos. She could also stay on as a breeding female for the new silverback. Keeping her though would be a little genetically redundant. With Ngozi and Johari already breeding with him Nneka's genetics would already be fully represented. Vip and Amanda via Ngozi and Charles via Johari. But other zoos to keep mom and daughters together so it just depends on the genetic mixing needed. They could also decide to wait longer and let her mature more before making a decision. Depends on the need for breeding females and her genetics in the whole grand SSP strategy. Also in another 6 years what will the make up of the troop be?

So if Nneka leaves who becomes female number 3? No idea. Again genetics will be king. There is the option of Yewande arriving from Calgary. She is just about to reach maturity. Transporting her to Toronto would be easier than sending her south but since her father is dead and a new troop leader is needed there she could easily stay on and breed. She would be a good option for keeping ownership of her infants. Her presence though would complicate my silverback solution and the bachelor situation. I think she is better to stay in Calgary or go south. Her mother Zuri could come back to Toronto. She would bring back Barney's genetics and eliminate the genetic problem we have with Yewande and my choice for silverback, while retaining ownership of the infants. Yewande could then stay without genetic redundancy in Calgary. Sadly Zuri isn't a pretty gorilla like our other gorillas. Zuri does have some medical issues and was rejected by the Toronto troop when she was young because of her seizures but that with different gorillas. At that time it was Charles, Samantha with Sekani and young Subira, Catherine, and Josephine with Jomo. Josephine was intended to be Zuri's surrogate but they never bonded and then Jo became pregnant with Johari ending the experiment. It's a messy situation with Zuri's life story I can always explain another time. Point is none of the gorillas who rejected her as an infant would still be part of the picture. On the flip side if Toronto is driven by ownership they could ask for Sekani and Catherine back from Little Rock though Sekani brings genetic redundancy and frankly why bother splitting up a new troop. Same thing for Shalia in Milwaukee. Sekani's daughter Adelina is a candidate for possible transfer in 5 years. She might share 1/4 DNA with aunt Johari but that's better than half sister. She would be bringing back Samantha's line to the troop as well as her father Fossey's line which given he only had her and Mosi might be a good thing. They wont ask for Barika back from Sedgwick since shes in a new young troop with an infant. Plus she ruins my genetic plans for silverback again. The SSP could also bring in a new female totally unrelated to Toronto. So long as Josephine is alive and can spend some time with the group a decision probably doesn't need to be made.

That brings me to silverback. I'm all but convinced it will be Granby's Jawara. He is a great genetic match who is the prefect age. With wild born Julia as mom and import Kakinga as dad he is genetically vaulable. Of all Toronto related male gorillas his genetic rank is only technically surpassed by his elder brother Ntondo and that's because Ntondo has an earlier studbook number due to birth order. Julia only has three surviving offspring, Ntondo, Jawara and Barika. Of the three only Barika has bred producing her infant daughter Alika. Ntondo is a silverback of his own troop but he is to be breeding for the time being. So the odds of adding to that side of the family tree right now is virtually non existent for the time being. Kakinga has 7 living offspring, Mbundi, Ntondo, Jawara, Zwalani, Barika, Yewande and Kimani. Of those only Barika has bred again though Mbundi is in a breeding situation so a second grandchild could come. So check great genetic value for Jawara. Perfectly suited for high value Johari (number two I believe for females). Plus a good fit for Ngozi because her own genetic value is lower but not terrible. By mixing his genetics with the girls their offspring will be carrying the genes of 6 different founders, though some of those founders were more prolific than others. Now if they consider bringing in Zuri he's a great match for her too. They had paired Zuri and Kakinga for a reason and Jawara does possess Kakinga's genetics. It also helps that Zuri and Kakinga only have the one daughter meaning their genetic ties are not that strong already. Jawara would also be a good genetic match for Nneka if chosen as the third female or for any other female that came in. He's only got the one sister and niece so any other female in North America would be a good match for him. So check again for genetic opportunities. If the zoo cares about ownership of the infants by selecting Jawara as silverback they are assuring all infants born to Ngozi and Johari remain property of the zoo. Going over the list of other contenders for that position based on ownership presents problems. Jomo, Subira, Sadiki and Nassir are all out as her brothers. Based on age, Zwalani would be top choice due to location but he is Johari's nephew so he's out of the running. Ntondo has a troop but would be as good a genetic match as his baby brother. Mbundi has a troop and is Johari's nephew so he's out. And Patrick while a great genetic match is out because he is super screwed up mentally and cannot even live with other gorillas (another story for another time, it's a sad one). In the too young category we have Bakari, Mosi and Sulaiman who are also all her nephews and thus out of the running even if they were old enough. That leaves Jawara as the only logical contender if ownership of the offspring is a consideration. Check again in Jawara's favour. Sure another silverback from just about any other troop could do but Toronto owns Jawara and can literally just as Granby for him back. Next consideration is ease of the move. Jawara is not all that far away. Granby is so incredibly easy to move him from. Some cross provincial boundaries paperwork and a truck with a gorilla crate and you are done. Virtually no paper work. Virtually no cost. Super easy for the zoo to send a keeper to meet him and house a keeper during transition to Toronto. No planes. No passports. No work permits. Easy. An American silverback would need health clearances, tons of import paperwork, work permits, likely a plane ride somewhere, so much work an hassle. There is a reason Calgary, Toronto and Granby work together with their gorillas. Add to that if an American gorilla came up to head up the troop, eventually Jawara would have to move south to take up his own troop... more work. And what do we do with Sadiki and Nassir. Jawara stays in Granby will they take Sadiki and Nassir off Toronto's hands? They have the space but maybe the boys go to the US instead. Now we have gone from no hassle to moving 4 gorillas across an international border. Plus I ignored Zwalani but he has no choice he has to go south. Totally unavoidable there. He cant go to Calgary because Zuri is his aunt and Yewande is his cousin/sister. Sure Jawara could slip into the position as silverback in Calgary because he is not related to the three adult females but... darn that works too if Yewande is heading for Toronto. If not that does create one more export and an additional import. It will be far easier on everyone involved to move Sadiki and Nassir to Granby to chill with Zwalani until a silverback position opens for him and bring Jawara to Toronto. And then when ready in Calgary send Zuri to join the Toronto troop and bring up a silverback from the US. Minimum disturbance. Maximum benefit. All SSP's try to maximize genetic mixing with the Canadian zoos before importing and exporting whenever possible so this will be extremely attractive to the gorilla SSP. Another big check in Jawara's favour.

I like my plan too because it ensures our troop is represented by as many of our original gorillas as possible. Johari represents Charles and Josephine. Ngozi brings in Amanda. Jawara brings back Julia. Zuri sees Barney return home. That just leaves out Samantha and Caroline. In a few years they could bring in Adelina for Samantha but Caroline is a lost cause. Catherine is her only offspring and she had to be sterilized due to medical issues so that critically valuable wild born genetic line is dead. I might be insane but I really like this idea of representing the original troop as best we can because we are talking about one of the iconic species at the zoo. I love legacy animals that tie back to the zoo's original animals. It's why I love Mstari (granddaughter of the first giraffes at the zoo), Jingga (first 4th generation orang born), Savannah (her great grand parents were the first sables), and Nandu (3rd generation male Indian rhino to live at the zoo... still think his name should have started with a V like dad Vishnu and granddad Vinu). I could go on but they were the ones off the top of my head.
 
Again, brilliant breakdown of the Gorilla future plan @TZFan , but I'm pretty sure @Leo wants to hear your breakdown of the Orangutans future.

As far as I know, Budi is set to become the breeding male, but if I remember correctly, that is not exactly what you'd prefer.
 
I'd I goof... oh I did.

Orangs... That's less well known... future wise.

Budi is indeed the new breeding male. He's a little young so they may well be wasting precious breeding time waiting for him to get the job done. Remember with such long childhoods there really is a clock ticking on Ramai and Sekali before they become post reproductive. Ramai is 31 and Sekali is 24. Ramai has one more infant in her. Maybe two if she breeds right away and is willing to let the baby go by 7. Sekali has two maybe three infant to go. Each year they waste waiting for Budi to get them pregnant while a fully mature male would have lessens the possibility of that extra baby. So far they have wasted 3 years which would have virtually guaranteed the extra infant from both. Now Budi has only been breeding with Sekali for a year and not actually worked up the courage to breed Ramai but had the zoo received Kutai from Woodland Park or Oregon... cant remember which... like they were supposed to 4 years ago we would have infants. Unfortunately Kutai died before he could be shipped. Budi will likely stay on through life but he could also be shipped out after Ramai and Sekali have their first with him. Male Sumartrans are a little more in demand than females because of their shorter lives.

So what happens to brother Kembali? Good question. Right now nothing. He is related to Sekali, Ramai and Jingga. He has no future in Toronto. Eventually he will leave. With Calgary opening an orangutan enclosure following the pandas in 2023 it is possible he will just chill in Toronto waiting for that exhibit to open. Easier to keep him in Canada and ship him to Calgary and just bring up a female for him. But his genetics could be needed in the US sooner. Again its that shorter life thing. The zoo likely wont feel any urgency to get rid of him until he and Budi can no longer get along but even then they did keep Dinding and Molek in two separate groups. Once the boys mature more Budi can chill with Sekali and Kembali can hang with Ramai and Jingga so long as they are on birth control. A lot of different factors will be at play in Kembali's future.

So what happens with Jingga? Again nothing right now. Jingga would not be allowed to breed before the age of 14 and depending on their feeling of her maturity level maybe longer. They are very careful with orang females. She can breed earlier but they prefer her to be emotionally ready for motherhood so that its a good experience for her and a safe and healthy situation for baby. Besides it will be much better for Jingga to watch Ramai raise another infant and practice with her baby brother or sister. Puppe's daughter Jahe had a very hands on role in raising Budi. It made it easier to transition to motherhood last year when her son Rowan was born under trying conditions. What happens to her at maturity is a big long term question that is perhaps more difficult to answer than Kembali. She could go to Calgary as their breeding female (obviously Kembali wouldn't be the male). She could go south. She could stay on in Toronto... which is my personal preference. I want her delivering the first fifth generation orang born to a Toronto line right here at home. That is a legacy infant I want. In that case though Budi has to leave which as much as I love him and Puppe I'm good with. Puppe may be an original making Budi a legacy but he is only second generation. Jingga comes from lines with real history making firsts. Her great grandparents, Abigail and Mias, were the first two orangs to arrive at the zoo... beating Puppe by a month or so. Her grandmother Chantek was the first orang born in Canada! Her grandfather was Dinding and well who among us didn't love the orang. Such a chill dad. Mom Ramai helped to raise Sekali... hence the single offspring thus far. She is the second 3rd generation baby at the zoo after her ill fated brother Cherdek who died at just 8 months old. Jingga is the first 4th generation from a Toronto line. Pretty cool she was born at the zoo and I think the first fifth generation should be born here too. She has no competition for that honour as the other fourth generation baby just arrived last year.

Ramai and Sekali's futures are at the zoo breeding with Budi for the time being. Hopefully both get pregnant soon.

Puppe will live out her days at the zoo. Hopefully those days are many but reality is the clock is winding down. She is officially the 3rd oldest Sumatran orang in North America.

Other news... Fun video of our friends playing with Christmas trees.

Watch Toronto Zoo animals play with Home Depot donated Christmas trees
 
TZFan said:
I'd I goof... oh I did.

Orangs... That's less well known... future wise.

Budi is indeed the new breeding male. He's a little young so they may well be wasting precious breeding time waiting for him to get the job done. Remember with such long childhoods there really is a clock ticking on Ramai and Sekali before they become post reproductive. Ramai is 31 and Sekali is 24. Ramai has one more infant in her. Maybe two if she breeds right away and is willing to let the baby go by 7. Sekali has two maybe three infant to go. Each year they waste waiting for Budi to get them pregnant while a fully mature male would have lessens the possibility of that extra baby. So far they have wasted 3 years which would have virtually guaranteed the extra infant from both. Now Budi has only been breeding with Sekali for a year and not actually worked up the courage to breed Ramai but had the zoo received Kutai from Woodland Park or Oregon... cant remember which... like they were supposed to 4 years ago we would have infants. Unfortunately Kutai died before he could be shipped. Budi will likely stay on through life but he could also be shipped out after Ramai and Sekali have their first with him. Male Sumartrans are a little more in demand than females because of their shorter lives.

So what happens to brother Kembali? Good question. Right now nothing. He is related to Sekali, Ramai and Jingga. He has no future in Toronto. Eventually he will leave. With Calgary opening an orangutan enclosure following the pandas in 2023 it is possible he will just chill in Toronto waiting for that exhibit to open. Easier to keep him in Canada and ship him to Calgary and just bring up a female for him. But his genetics could be needed in the US sooner. Again its that shorter life thing. The zoo likely wont feel any urgency to get rid of him until he and Budi can no longer get along but even then they did keep Dinding and Molek in two separate groups. Once the boys mature more Budi can chill with Sekali and Kembali can hang with Ramai and Jingga so long as they are on birth control. A lot of different factors will be at play in Kembali's future.

So what happens with Jingga? Again nothing right now. Jingga would not be allowed to breed before the age of 14 and depending on their feeling of her maturity level maybe longer. They are very careful with orang females. She can breed earlier but they prefer her to be emotionally ready for motherhood so that its a good experience for her and a safe and healthy situation for baby. Besides it will be much better for Jingga to watch Ramai raise another infant and practice with her baby brother or sister. Puppe's daughter Jahe had a very hands on role in raising Budi. It made it easier to transition to motherhood last year when her son Rowan was born under trying conditions. What happens to her at maturity is a big long term question that is perhaps more difficult to answer than Kembali. She could go to Calgary as their breeding female (obviously Kembali wouldn't be the male). She could go south. She could stay on in Toronto... which is my personal preference. I want her delivering the first fifth generation orang born to a Toronto line right here at home. That is a legacy infant I want. In that case though Budi has to leave which as much as I love him and Puppe I'm good with. Puppe may be an original making Budi a legacy but he is only second generation. Jingga comes from lines with real history making firsts. Her great grandparents, Abigail and Mias, were the first two orangs to arrive at the zoo... beating Puppe by a month or so. Her grandmother Chantek was the first orang born in Canada! Her grandfather was Dinding and well who among us didn't love the orang. Such a chill dad. Mom Ramai helped to raise Sekali... hence the single offspring thus far. She is the second 3rd generation baby at the zoo after her ill fated brother Cherdek who died at just 8 months old. Jingga is the first 4th generation from a Toronto line. Pretty cool she was born at the zoo and I think the first fifth generation should be born here too. She has no competition for that honour as the other fourth generation baby just arrived last year.

Ramai and Sekali's futures are at the zoo breeding with Budi for the time being. Hopefully both get pregnant soon.

Puppe will live out her days at the zoo. Hopefully those days are many but reality is the clock is winding down. She is officially the 3rd oldest Sumatran orang in North America.

Other news... Fun video of our friends playing with Christmas trees.

Watch Toronto Zoo animals play with Home Depot donated Christmas trees
Click to expand...
When will the new orangutan exhibit open? What's the zoo's next project?
 
@GraysonDP, hoping everything remains on schedule the new outdoor Orangutan exhibit is set to open Spring 2018. It's the next big project at the zoo.
 
Ground is set to be broken in the spring however the interesting thing to note is that there hasn't been a contract put out yet for construction. Most contracts are up for a month or so before the bidding closes and then they take a while to decide. I would think we should see it up soon but the fact its not already makes me wonder if design is already behind schedule. If that's the case don't count on spring 2018 but it should be a huge push with the pandas gone.
 
Thanks for the insight! I have a never ending amount of questions so I will ask my next one. What's the plan with the three lions? Due to their lack of any genetic value, does it make sense to breed them again? I think having a place to send the four boys was a lucky break as they will most likely have to form a bachelor pride and bod are never as valuable. Unfortunately, having these still young white lions is simply just a waste. Thoughts?
 
No idea what the plans are for the lions but I do think the zoo will breed them again at some point. Keepers don't want to breed the white lions because there is no value in breeding them... inbreeding and all. The SSP doesn't want white lions being bred or kept but does not specifically ban it. Yet the big wigs who get to make the decisions do want to breed them because they realize lion cubs are big draws.

I agree the zoo did get lucky placing the boys so quickly. Canada has white lion prides at African Lion Safari, Parc Safari, Safari Niagara, Jungle Cat World, and Elmvale Jungle Zoo. That covers a lot of the available zoos who could have taken in cubs. Plus African Lion Safari had at least one litter about the boys age and Elmvale has had cubs the last two years. Who knows where those cubs will end up. The zoo definitely got lucky with placing them in Canada. Demand for white lions is iffy. They are a big draw but many zoos don't want to promote genetic mutations. I really thought they would have to find overseas homes for the boys where demand for them would be higher.

The zoo is in a bit of a scrap over its bid process for a new ad agency.

Gorilla marketing: ad agencies take on the zoo
 
In speaking with Keepers at the zoo, a while back, there is no immediate plan to start breeding the White Lions again, however that can change at a moments notice. Since the adults are still pretty young, and were so good with the cubs, I believe will see more breeding in the future. It's just a matter of when.

As for the article posted by @TZFan about the marketing proposal, sounds like a bunch of noise making. People clearly think the proposal is a bit much, but if that's the case, don't bid. Why cause a scene over nothing?
 
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