Thanks for the added information, I really need to catch up on all the developments at Toronto
. The Lemurs really do make for a nice exhibit, although I'll admit that I enjoyed when the Clouded Leopards were in that exhibit a little bit more.Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Discussion thread 2020
- Thread starter TZFan
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. The Lemurs really do make for a nice exhibit, although I'll admit that I enjoyed when the Clouded Leopards were in that exhibit a little bit more.
@TZDugong, I definitely would agree with the lemur and clouded leopard opinions. Its a great more lively exhibit with the lemurs in the summer to delight guests. Plenty of space for them thus proving more that they are in the wrong exhibit in the pavilion. Mandrills forever! The space was great for the clouded leopards as well. Its a bigger exhibit then what they have. Build a second outdoor exhibit (maybe not on display) and let them move there. Frees up the Mayan Woods for something else smaller. I won't fly into wild speculation because it wont happen.
I think that the Lemur exhibit is big enough to cohabitate to species of lemur even without splitting it.
Not a shining example I know but the Bowmanville Zoo used to cohabitate Ring Tails with Black Lemurs without issue. The two groups kept to themselves another species of equal size like Red Bellied Lemur or Brown Lemur might work as well other zoos cohabitate different species as well. It's only large groups of the same species that them to cause problems because it can lead to in fighting.
...
But if we were going to wildly speculate I'd love to see Binturongs.
Though if the old plan holds true the entire Malayan Woods pavilion is to be scrapped.
More room for the rhino's and possibly Gaur is a good idea but I will miss the little pavilion.
Not a shining example I know but the Bowmanville Zoo used to cohabitate Ring Tails with Black Lemurs without issue. The two groups kept to themselves another species of equal size like Red Bellied Lemur or Brown Lemur might work as well other zoos cohabitate different species as well. It's only large groups of the same species that them to cause problems because it can lead to in fighting.
...
But if we were going to wildly speculate I'd love to see Binturongs.
Though if the old plan holds true the entire Malayan Woods pavilion is to be scrapped.
More room for the rhino's and possibly Gaur is a good idea but I will miss the little pavilion.
@kingoffreaks, I agree it will be a shame to lose the Malayan Woods. It is so lush with plants and when the butterflies are going its a real little gem.But if the plaza, woods and lets just call it a seasonal exhibit (the old lion tail macaque) into more space for maybe a few rhinos or to bring back gaur or any other bigger animal I'll live with it. I do think from more recent orang plans its turning into space for the orangs to visit in a second outdoor yard via an OLine in the years to come. Frankly I won't put much thought into what might be done because they are creating a new master plan. Everything we thought was happening could change.
I went to the walk-through yesterday on the last members-only day... phew it was hot! But well worth it to be back.
I'll start by saying how impressed I am with how the zoo has set this up. Organised and efficient, staff posted everywhere opening doors, wiping down railings, refilling the sanitiser dispensers at every main exhibit, saying a smiling hello and offering directions (and yet at no point were you hurried along). Dots painted at viewing areas to remind and encourage social distancing, and fun signs about it. The washrooms have attendants only letting one person or group/family in at a time, however they are utilising both the men's and women's equally for whoever is next in line, which helps.
No keeper talks, but there were volunteers at many of the "main" exhibits talking about the animals.
I had a 10am entry, they provided a basic copy of the route (but it was so well signed you didn't need it.)
Over the bridge and past the outdoor lemurs to check out Vishnu chilling in the wallow. Up the boardwalk - Sumatran tigers were out - and past the closed Indo-Malaya pavilion.
Then you're given the choice to turn left to do the Africa loop with the indoor mask-required access, or turn right and head straight down towards the outdoor gorilla exhibit.
Obviously I went left. The red river hogs were out, although the viewing point has been roped back about 6ft.
Then a cut-through the empty Giraffe House, and there was our "little" Amani. I was surprised how much she was contentedly wandering around on her own. She'd watch Kiko - who was in the little yard attached to the barn, watch us, investigate plants growing at the fence line. Mstari was mostly munching away at the other side, although when Mstari did move, Amani was quick to join her.
Although the website said the Zootique was the only open gift shop, they did have that summer tent one going when I was there, taking advantage of the baby giraffe excitement.
Next was inside the Rainforest, a very specific route set out but you were able to see most of the occupants. You ended up at the gorillas, Sadiki and Nassir were there. On exiting the pavilion I was so excited about seeing the gorillas again that I completely forgot to check in with the Galapagos tortoises.
The gorilla troop outside was quite entertaining, the youngsters very active.
Of course the rest of the African Savannah is still blocked off for the drive-through - and as that is my favourite part of the zoo, I really missed it. However, I do understand the value of keeping the drive-through going for the time being. I saw Dolf on the news this morning talking about possibly keeping it as an option long term too - but I hope if they do, it's only on certain days so we can eventually see it all again.
Down the hill, Americas is blocked, so around the Tundra loop. As expected in the mid-day heat, the arctic foxes were hiding, and not a sign of the wolf pups - just a glimpse of one adult laying in the shade.
Down by the teepee where it loops past the caribou, they've FINALLY built a walkway across to Americas! Of course it's blocked right now due to the vehicles over there, but what a welcome addition that'll be when we can use it.
Polar bears were all out, Juno had the main pool to herself when I was there.
Over to the Eurasia loop. Snow leopards a no-show, but the tur, camels, falcons were out. I also caught a distant glimpse of my favourite Przewalski's horses through the trees. Red panda had an "off-exhibit" sign, I'm guessing due to the heat and the pregnancy (or maybe cubs are here...?)
Finally you loop around to the Amur tigers (both taking advantage of their inside A/C), before cutting through Discovery Zone to the Zootique and the exit.
Doing all the loops at a leisurely pace, including a couple of sit downs on benches, took me about 2.5 hrs. You could definitely do it much more quickly if you didn't hang around at exhibits. I probably would've stayed even longer as I love just hanging out, taking photos and observing behaviour, but by the time I hit Tundra and Eurasia the heat was oppressive.
Most patrons were following the guidelines without issue, making a game with their kids about standing on dots and putting on masks etc.
I'm going back next Monday the 13th, will be interesting to see if that's the same now the public is also able to visit.
I'll start by saying how impressed I am with how the zoo has set this up. Organised and efficient, staff posted everywhere opening doors, wiping down railings, refilling the sanitiser dispensers at every main exhibit, saying a smiling hello and offering directions (and yet at no point were you hurried along). Dots painted at viewing areas to remind and encourage social distancing, and fun signs about it. The washrooms have attendants only letting one person or group/family in at a time, however they are utilising both the men's and women's equally for whoever is next in line, which helps.
No keeper talks, but there were volunteers at many of the "main" exhibits talking about the animals.
I had a 10am entry, they provided a basic copy of the route (but it was so well signed you didn't need it.)
Over the bridge and past the outdoor lemurs to check out Vishnu chilling in the wallow. Up the boardwalk - Sumatran tigers were out - and past the closed Indo-Malaya pavilion.
Then you're given the choice to turn left to do the Africa loop with the indoor mask-required access, or turn right and head straight down towards the outdoor gorilla exhibit.
Obviously I went left. The red river hogs were out, although the viewing point has been roped back about 6ft.
Then a cut-through the empty Giraffe House, and there was our "little" Amani. I was surprised how much she was contentedly wandering around on her own. She'd watch Kiko - who was in the little yard attached to the barn, watch us, investigate plants growing at the fence line. Mstari was mostly munching away at the other side, although when Mstari did move, Amani was quick to join her.
Although the website said the Zootique was the only open gift shop, they did have that summer tent one going when I was there, taking advantage of the baby giraffe excitement.
Next was inside the Rainforest, a very specific route set out but you were able to see most of the occupants. You ended up at the gorillas, Sadiki and Nassir were there. On exiting the pavilion I was so excited about seeing the gorillas again that I completely forgot to check in with the Galapagos tortoises.
The gorilla troop outside was quite entertaining, the youngsters very active.
Of course the rest of the African Savannah is still blocked off for the drive-through - and as that is my favourite part of the zoo, I really missed it. However, I do understand the value of keeping the drive-through going for the time being. I saw Dolf on the news this morning talking about possibly keeping it as an option long term too - but I hope if they do, it's only on certain days so we can eventually see it all again.
Down the hill, Americas is blocked, so around the Tundra loop. As expected in the mid-day heat, the arctic foxes were hiding, and not a sign of the wolf pups - just a glimpse of one adult laying in the shade.
Down by the teepee where it loops past the caribou, they've FINALLY built a walkway across to Americas! Of course it's blocked right now due to the vehicles over there, but what a welcome addition that'll be when we can use it.
Polar bears were all out, Juno had the main pool to herself when I was there.
Over to the Eurasia loop. Snow leopards a no-show, but the tur, camels, falcons were out. I also caught a distant glimpse of my favourite Przewalski's horses through the trees. Red panda had an "off-exhibit" sign, I'm guessing due to the heat and the pregnancy (or maybe cubs are here...?)
Finally you loop around to the Amur tigers (both taking advantage of their inside A/C), before cutting through Discovery Zone to the Zootique and the exit.
Doing all the loops at a leisurely pace, including a couple of sit downs on benches, took me about 2.5 hrs. You could definitely do it much more quickly if you didn't hang around at exhibits. I probably would've stayed even longer as I love just hanging out, taking photos and observing behaviour, but by the time I hit Tundra and Eurasia the heat was oppressive.
Most patrons were following the guidelines without issue, making a game with their kids about standing on dots and putting on masks etc.
I'm going back next Monday the 13th, will be interesting to see if that's the same now the public is also able to visit.
@Judache, it is absolutely terrible to hear Dolf is considering keeping the safari. I get the purpose of it for now but that cuts off so much of the zoo and blocks off top draws (lions, rhinos, zebra, hippos, penguins, jaguars and otters). Basically if you keep the safari going long term you are saying here pay for admission and pay for a safari on top of it if you want to see the rest. That's greedy. I think the safari needs to stop sooner rather than later. Both those on the safari and those walking through the zoo get only a partial experience. On the safari luck plays far more of a role in seeing things. You are not at idea viewing points which if you have a bad luck drive means you see next to nothing and feel ripped off. Likewise those walking through the zoo will feel ripped off not seeing some of the biggest ticket draws. Right now most are understanding but that will fade with time. The safari even on single day of the week will likely create a negative experience for those arriving who don't know half of the zoo is off limits. I'd be ticked even if I knew and forgot. Unless you move the drive through to being strictly the zoomobile path I think you really do hinder too much of the zoo. And you need the zoomobile path for the zoomobile once it can be up and running which might not be that far away. Just terrible to think Dolf is considering keeping part of the zoo closed for an extended period to accommodate the safari.
Thoughts on the zoomobile. They could reduce capacity on them like a family every other row, with face masks mandatory and wipe them down at each stop. I'd probably also drop the Canadian stop. Limit it to the main stop, Africa and Tundra trek (but even that one could go). I could even see running it just as a ride and not transportation. No stopping just a big loop. That could reduce load time because you cant bring your stroller. There's no need your coming right back to the entrance. Would still help generate much needed income while reducing its appeal a little as transportation. I'd also load from back to front so people aren't passing each other. It is doable to get it up and running again.
Thoughts on the zoomobile. They could reduce capacity on them like a family every other row, with face masks mandatory and wipe them down at each stop. I'd probably also drop the Canadian stop. Limit it to the main stop, Africa and Tundra trek (but even that one could go). I could even see running it just as a ride and not transportation. No stopping just a big loop. That could reduce load time because you cant bring your stroller. There's no need your coming right back to the entrance. Would still help generate much needed income while reducing its appeal a little as transportation. I'd also load from back to front so people aren't passing each other. It is doable to get it up and running again.
@TZFan Wow...Everything I wrote about my experience there and the one line you pick out and choose to rant about is a side comment about a CP24 interview. At least this morning I'm finding it funny, unlike when I first read it last night.
To clarify and be completely fair to Dolf, "long term" was my take on what he said, and I was using it in the context of during the pandemic - the same as everything else I was writing about - and the context of the interview he was giving. I wasn't talking about way down the line, in non-pandemic times, and of course I can't say if he was or wasn't.
That being said, I don't believe we'll be seeing things back to "normal" for a long, long time. It is not going to be a case of the province saying okay, phase 3, and the zoo going back to the way it was. That's not going to happen completely - in any public gathering place - until there is a viable vaccine (maybe next year) or a possible herd immunity (several years). There will continue to be limits on numbers allowed in, especially in the pavilions and other buildings. Even something as simple as washroom access will be an increasing issue as more foot traffic is allowed back...there are so many logistical and legal aspects that we aren't necessarily privy to.
I hate the term "new normal" but that is really what we're going to be looking at. I am hoping that in stage 3 they do work out a way to open up the rest of the areas to foot traffic again - I agree it will be very disappointing if they don't, and I don't think it will come to that anyway. However, keeping the Scenic Safari open in some form for the foreseeable future is not greed, it's survival. As I don't have a car, personally I would be happy with it gone, but it's not just about me. I'm in several Toronto Zoo social media groups and it's become clear that there's a huge segment of people out there (members and not) who aren't comfortable with bringing themselves or their kids anywhere on foot in public, and say they won't for a long time. Same reason the government is still offering the online home schooling option in the fall.
But, they love the safari, and some have gone multiple times and say they will continue to as long as they can (nice they can afford it lol). There's also the immunosuppressed and otherwise susceptible parts of the population who can't/won't do a walk-through, and some elderly/physically challenged who may never have had the chance to go at all before.
With walk-through traffic being restricted in numbers both legally and socially, they'd be nuts not to continue a proven revenue stream in some form, for as long as it's viable and people will pay. If it meant keeping our zoo somewhat financially solvent, I'd see nothing wrong with a couple of days a month (or even a week at first ) where the safari runs while foot traffic is on the reduced route, and the other days foot traffic can go everywhere (even if still on managed on-way loops). Doing something like that for a while would also help them see where the most demand is, and adjust the schedules and offerings accordingly. Maybe seasonally too.
With online pre-booking required - which I also see being around for a long while due provincial public gathering limits - there should be no issues with patrons not knowing what "type" of day/visit they're booking for. Maybe different pricing too. And for the members, I have NO doubt that Dolf and team would be looking after us in some way, as they've done all along.
With regard to the zoomobile, I do agree that it could work as a "ride", one way nonstop around, with limited riders and some quick and easy way to sanitise between runs (without wet seats for the next group!) I'd actually welcome that, usually I only ride it as a loop at the beginning or the end of my visit, mostly just to see the Przewalski's and I get frustrated waiting at each stop to move on again.
Whatever happens as the weeks and months tick on, we'll adapt.
To clarify and be completely fair to Dolf, "long term" was my take on what he said, and I was using it in the context of during the pandemic - the same as everything else I was writing about - and the context of the interview he was giving. I wasn't talking about way down the line, in non-pandemic times, and of course I can't say if he was or wasn't.
That being said, I don't believe we'll be seeing things back to "normal" for a long, long time. It is not going to be a case of the province saying okay, phase 3, and the zoo going back to the way it was. That's not going to happen completely - in any public gathering place - until there is a viable vaccine (maybe next year) or a possible herd immunity (several years). There will continue to be limits on numbers allowed in, especially in the pavilions and other buildings. Even something as simple as washroom access will be an increasing issue as more foot traffic is allowed back...there are so many logistical and legal aspects that we aren't necessarily privy to.
I hate the term "new normal" but that is really what we're going to be looking at. I am hoping that in stage 3 they do work out a way to open up the rest of the areas to foot traffic again - I agree it will be very disappointing if they don't, and I don't think it will come to that anyway. However, keeping the Scenic Safari open in some form for the foreseeable future is not greed, it's survival. As I don't have a car, personally I would be happy with it gone, but it's not just about me. I'm in several Toronto Zoo social media groups and it's become clear that there's a huge segment of people out there (members and not) who aren't comfortable with bringing themselves or their kids anywhere on foot in public, and say they won't for a long time. Same reason the government is still offering the online home schooling option in the fall.
But, they love the safari, and some have gone multiple times and say they will continue to as long as they can (nice they can afford it lol). There's also the immunosuppressed and otherwise susceptible parts of the population who can't/won't do a walk-through, and some elderly/physically challenged who may never have had the chance to go at all before.
With walk-through traffic being restricted in numbers both legally and socially, they'd be nuts not to continue a proven revenue stream in some form, for as long as it's viable and people will pay. If it meant keeping our zoo somewhat financially solvent, I'd see nothing wrong with a couple of days a month (or even a week at first ) where the safari runs while foot traffic is on the reduced route, and the other days foot traffic can go everywhere (even if still on managed on-way loops). Doing something like that for a while would also help them see where the most demand is, and adjust the schedules and offerings accordingly. Maybe seasonally too.
With online pre-booking required - which I also see being around for a long while due provincial public gathering limits - there should be no issues with patrons not knowing what "type" of day/visit they're booking for. Maybe different pricing too. And for the members, I have NO doubt that Dolf and team would be looking after us in some way, as they've done all along.
With regard to the zoomobile, I do agree that it could work as a "ride", one way nonstop around, with limited riders and some quick and easy way to sanitise between runs (without wet seats for the next group!) I'd actually welcome that, usually I only ride it as a loop at the beginning or the end of my visit, mostly just to see the Przewalski's and I get frustrated waiting at each stop to move on again.
Whatever happens as the weeks and months tick on, we'll adapt.
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@Judache I took what you said as a permanent change. I misunderstood you. If its during the pandemic I can be patient to a point with the safari. If it was going to be safari forever and the whole of the savanna is a no go then I would see it as straight up greed. There is a huge difference between the two scenarios naturally.
If the safari were to continue for months to come I would hate for it to be every day. One day a week seems fair. And I not sure how many animals are out really early or really late but It would be neat to have a before hours or after hours safari. Maybe more after hours. But that might not work depending on how many animals are locked in for the night. I'd be a big fan of the safari during the winter months. That could be a great revenue stream and it could be more than just a single day since most people don't visit in the winter. Less impact but probably far more profit then normal winter day ticket sales.
I was never suggesting for a moment that they break laws and violate health regulations. If it came across that way I apologize because that's not at all what I meant. Of course they need to obey the government and health policy guidelines. It would be terrible for the zoo to be seen as a source of covid if an outbreak stemmed from visits to the zoo. That would make the horror show of the elephant debacle look like a cake walk from a PR point of view. And the zoo needs to do whats in the best interest of its animals and staff.
I actually like pre-booking and timed limited entry. It does space people out nicely and I could see the zoo pushing for more pre-sales in the future. Makes sense. You wont need as many staff members to keep people moving through if you get the right system in place for it. Not having been in yet I dont know what entering looks like but I assume its faster and more efficient than before with the long lines.
Personally I like the zoomobile best as easy transportation over a ride or even the drive thru (which I do like). I like to hop on the zoomobile to start head to Africa or Tundra Trek to do the first before most people arrive. Be deep in the zoo already and beat the crowd. Then I'll hop on it do get to other areas faster. Also a nice break from walking and often the heat. But that being said even as a single loop ride it would be nice. And if the zoo wanted to make the zoomobile a little more exciting let them travel the paths with crowds. It could pop into the savanna and tour it. It could also weave pass by the temple and Americas and through Eurasia. Sure you wouldnt pass the wildlife center but you might see more. I think most people would see it coming and get out of the way. Other zoos have their zoomobile equivalents meander through the guest paths.
Just thinking about reopening and a one way route... I don't see how the temple can be reopened. It's down a single path without a loop out. Even if you divide the path if your not able to go under the waterfall (steep climb) you cant turn around. You could let people go behind the scenes past the staff buildings and back out the tundra trek stop I suppose. The Americas might be tricky too because while you can certainly loop the pavilion unless people keep going to the temple and back around the staff area again you would have to pass by people. Those ones will be trickier to reopen. I checked the walk through map and it now shows Indo Malaya and Australiasia being open. The home page just lists the Rainforest as being open so I'm not sure if the map has been updated too early. I don't remember seeing those paths through those pavilions before. If that's true its great to see more things are opening up.
If the safari were to continue for months to come I would hate for it to be every day. One day a week seems fair. And I not sure how many animals are out really early or really late but It would be neat to have a before hours or after hours safari. Maybe more after hours. But that might not work depending on how many animals are locked in for the night. I'd be a big fan of the safari during the winter months. That could be a great revenue stream and it could be more than just a single day since most people don't visit in the winter. Less impact but probably far more profit then normal winter day ticket sales.
I was never suggesting for a moment that they break laws and violate health regulations. If it came across that way I apologize because that's not at all what I meant. Of course they need to obey the government and health policy guidelines. It would be terrible for the zoo to be seen as a source of covid if an outbreak stemmed from visits to the zoo. That would make the horror show of the elephant debacle look like a cake walk from a PR point of view. And the zoo needs to do whats in the best interest of its animals and staff.
I actually like pre-booking and timed limited entry. It does space people out nicely and I could see the zoo pushing for more pre-sales in the future. Makes sense. You wont need as many staff members to keep people moving through if you get the right system in place for it. Not having been in yet I dont know what entering looks like but I assume its faster and more efficient than before with the long lines.
Personally I like the zoomobile best as easy transportation over a ride or even the drive thru (which I do like). I like to hop on the zoomobile to start head to Africa or Tundra Trek to do the first before most people arrive. Be deep in the zoo already and beat the crowd. Then I'll hop on it do get to other areas faster. Also a nice break from walking and often the heat. But that being said even as a single loop ride it would be nice. And if the zoo wanted to make the zoomobile a little more exciting let them travel the paths with crowds. It could pop into the savanna and tour it. It could also weave pass by the temple and Americas and through Eurasia. Sure you wouldnt pass the wildlife center but you might see more. I think most people would see it coming and get out of the way. Other zoos have their zoomobile equivalents meander through the guest paths.
Just thinking about reopening and a one way route... I don't see how the temple can be reopened. It's down a single path without a loop out. Even if you divide the path if your not able to go under the waterfall (steep climb) you cant turn around. You could let people go behind the scenes past the staff buildings and back out the tundra trek stop I suppose. The Americas might be tricky too because while you can certainly loop the pavilion unless people keep going to the temple and back around the staff area again you would have to pass by people. Those ones will be trickier to reopen. I checked the walk through map and it now shows Indo Malaya and Australiasia being open. The home page just lists the Rainforest as being open so I'm not sure if the map has been updated too early. I don't remember seeing those paths through those pavilions before. If that's true its great to see more things are opening up.
@TZFan I did not think you were suggesting that the zoo circumvent rules and regulations - but I did (and still do, after your most recent reply) feel that you're missing the big picture with regard to how the pandemic is going to change a lot of things in our lives, some possibly permanently, and obviously we are not going to like or agree on all of them. Of course we are all entitled to our personal perspectives, but that ultimately may not be what is best for the zoo and the patrons, both financially and health-wise. And, as I have also already clarified, I do not know if he meant extending the safari permanently or just during pandemic conditions.
I know you're big on your "dream" versions of things and they are often a lot of fun to read, but this particular situation cannot be approached in the same way... especially when most of your speculation this time is coming across so negatively - or did at least in your first response to me. We can only deal in facts, and trust that the team there is doing the best they can with the circumstances they've been dealt. To do anything else at this very early stage undermines them. (Which again, is your choice, but I'm pretty sure is not your intention.)
Also, I wondered before if you actually read the rest of my original post after getting all up in arms about Dolf's interview, now I know you didn't - because you're now talking about no way out of the Americas, and yet I made a point of mentioning the new walk-through between there and Tundra.
You specifically asked me if I would please provide feedback after my visit...not sure why I bothered, to be honest. Nothing like stomping on someone's excitement.
I'm trying to focus on the positives because frankly, we have so little of that now, and the zoo re-opening - in any form - is one of the few things that is positive in my life at the moment. I do know you're very passionate about the zoo, as are we all.
(I did notice the same on the website about Indo-Malaya and Australasia, so if we don't know otherwise by then I'll try to find out when I go back on the 13th.)
I know you're big on your "dream" versions of things and they are often a lot of fun to read, but this particular situation cannot be approached in the same way... especially when most of your speculation this time is coming across so negatively - or did at least in your first response to me. We can only deal in facts, and trust that the team there is doing the best they can with the circumstances they've been dealt. To do anything else at this very early stage undermines them. (Which again, is your choice, but I'm pretty sure is not your intention.)
Also, I wondered before if you actually read the rest of my original post after getting all up in arms about Dolf's interview, now I know you didn't - because you're now talking about no way out of the Americas, and yet I made a point of mentioning the new walk-through between there and Tundra.
You specifically asked me if I would please provide feedback after my visit...not sure why I bothered, to be honest. Nothing like stomping on someone's excitement.
I'm trying to focus on the positives because frankly, we have so little of that now, and the zoo re-opening - in any form - is one of the few things that is positive in my life at the moment. I do know you're very passionate about the zoo, as are we all.
(I did notice the same on the website about Indo-Malaya and Australasia, so if we don't know otherwise by then I'll try to find out when I go back on the 13th.)
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@Judache, I did read what you wrote originally but somehow your comment on the walkway escaped me. How I missed something I have long hoped would happen amazes me. That little addition is so long over due and will make a huge difference. Glad to see it. I think it will definitely make the temple more of a destination than its been since Tundra Trek opened. It was kind of out of the way and an easy choice to bypass based on the few animals there and the time it took to get there. Yet it has some great animals in a beautiful setting. I always loved the waterfall and staring out over the zoo from behind it.
I do know some things have changed with covid probably forever. Where I live the impact has been very light compared to other places so I'm probably overly optimistic about it.
Glad to know I wasn't dreaming on the pavilions showing up on the map. I really started to wonder what the original map looked like. I was wondering if Indo Malaya was closed either due to construction on whatever system will get the orangs outside or possibly because the orangs and gorillas couldn't be kept totally sealed off like the gorillas can be if they only used the day room. Australasia I could have seen staying closed simply because the paths are much more narrow which might make distancing tougher. Kinda think that's why the Woods is staying closed. That one has the tightest path but I guess it might not be bad if there is someone at the doors letting groups in and they and someone at the exit work together to keep as few people in there as possible. Maybe two or three groups. On that front wonder if they were able to get the butterflies in. I think they are imported from overseas every year but I could be wrong. I do have a friend due to go this week and I'm sure they will let me know if when they went the pavilions are open. I'll be sure to pass that along to you.
I do know some things have changed with covid probably forever. Where I live the impact has been very light compared to other places so I'm probably overly optimistic about it.
Glad to know I wasn't dreaming on the pavilions showing up on the map. I really started to wonder what the original map looked like. I was wondering if Indo Malaya was closed either due to construction on whatever system will get the orangs outside or possibly because the orangs and gorillas couldn't be kept totally sealed off like the gorillas can be if they only used the day room. Australasia I could have seen staying closed simply because the paths are much more narrow which might make distancing tougher. Kinda think that's why the Woods is staying closed. That one has the tightest path but I guess it might not be bad if there is someone at the doors letting groups in and they and someone at the exit work together to keep as few people in there as possible. Maybe two or three groups. On that front wonder if they were able to get the butterflies in. I think they are imported from overseas every year but I could be wrong. I do have a friend due to go this week and I'm sure they will let me know if when they went the pavilions are open. I'll be sure to pass that along to you.
I've told by a few people who've been at the zoo this week that the Indo-Malaya and Australasia pavilions are indeed now open as additional "loops" on the walk through.
In addition they've opened up the Savannah from the giraffes to the white rhinos (past that is where the safari comes onto the path). On the other side of the Africa Restaurant you can apparently also now go and see the penguins.
Now I'm even more pleased I'm going back on Monday.
In addition they've opened up the Savannah from the giraffes to the white rhinos (past that is where the safari comes onto the path). On the other side of the Africa Restaurant you can apparently also now go and see the penguins.
Now I'm even more pleased I'm going back on Monday.
After going to the zoo again on Monday, I can confirm that yes, the Savannah has been opened again up as far as the white rhinos, then they loop you back down again to the giraffes and through the Rainforest. Where there is only one path, it's divided with painted lines and arrows up one side and down the other. People were mostly respecting it.
Penguins also now accessible before going down the hill.
Indo-Malaya pavilion is now open as a one way walk through, I couldn't see if there was any work happening inside or out on the other side of the orangs.
Australasia pavilion is open, and you can watch the kangaroos from outside their enclosure.
In addition, the fenced off new walk-through between Tundra and Americas has now also been painted with the two-way divided arrows, I'm assuming that Americas will be opened up as another separate walking loop accessible from Tundra, once the safari is no longer using the road (or maybe they'll re-route safari).
Penguins also now accessible before going down the hill.
Indo-Malaya pavilion is now open as a one way walk through, I couldn't see if there was any work happening inside or out on the other side of the orangs.
Australasia pavilion is open, and you can watch the kangaroos from outside their enclosure.
In addition, the fenced off new walk-through between Tundra and Americas has now also been painted with the two-way divided arrows, I'm assuming that Americas will be opened up as another separate walking loop accessible from Tundra, once the safari is no longer using the road (or maybe they'll re-route safari).
Thanks for the update on the new routes Judache. I was wondering how they were going to deal with those paths without a natural loop to them. Those are some of the areas where the path is the widest so makes sense they would just paint lines to encourage separation.
Interesting that they divided up the new route between Tundra and the Temple. I would have thought the natural loop would be through tundra to the temple then up the usual hill and through the Americas pavilion and back out at the Caribou Cafe. I suppose though if you do that you are really making a choice between that route and seeing all of Tundra Trek. That's just a little more complicated area. Little branches might be the best compromise. And really they could change their minds about traffic flow anywhere at any time if they think that will keep people safer.
It is really reassuring to know their health and safety manager has experience in infectious disease prevention. Makes me feel so much better about the decisions the zoo is making. Not all zoo's are lucky enough to have someone with that kind of experience and background.
Interesting that they divided up the new route between Tundra and the Temple. I would have thought the natural loop would be through tundra to the temple then up the usual hill and through the Americas pavilion and back out at the Caribou Cafe. I suppose though if you do that you are really making a choice between that route and seeing all of Tundra Trek. That's just a little more complicated area. Little branches might be the best compromise. And really they could change their minds about traffic flow anywhere at any time if they think that will keep people safer.
It is really reassuring to know their health and safety manager has experience in infectious disease prevention. Makes me feel so much better about the decisions the zoo is making. Not all zoo's are lucky enough to have someone with that kind of experience and background.
@Akula, I would say any construction and master plan stuff usually goes under the development thread. The discussion thread was split off for more general discussions that are not tired to changes at the zoo physically or animals coming or going. Basically a catch all but we are still I think working on how we define this thread. No worries though usually if mods find us too far off they will relocate a topic. They are great about that.
In answer to your question as to what comes next in theory its supposed to be the Canadian Wilderness. In reality its hard to say what comes after the front entrance because a new master plan is being worked up. I think the new CEO and probably underlings didn't like the original 15 year plan. All we can say for certain at the moment is the top project is the orangs. Priority 2 should be the walruses but maybe with covid that deal fell apart. Priority 3 will be the front entrance since they already seem to be into working on design plans. I think the Canadian Wilderness will still be next because the Canadian Domain facilities are pretty much the last untouched area of the zoo since opening. Everywhere else has had at least minor renos. Technically the new master plan should have been unveiled at the last board meeting based on their original timeline for it but with delays not including covid December should be the meeting. I don't think it will be revealed until sometime next year but I could be pleasantly surprised.
In answer to your question as to what comes next in theory its supposed to be the Canadian Wilderness. In reality its hard to say what comes after the front entrance because a new master plan is being worked up. I think the new CEO and probably underlings didn't like the original 15 year plan. All we can say for certain at the moment is the top project is the orangs. Priority 2 should be the walruses but maybe with covid that deal fell apart. Priority 3 will be the front entrance since they already seem to be into working on design plans. I think the Canadian Wilderness will still be next because the Canadian Domain facilities are pretty much the last untouched area of the zoo since opening. Everywhere else has had at least minor renos. Technically the new master plan should have been unveiled at the last board meeting based on their original timeline for it but with delays not including covid December should be the meeting. I don't think it will be revealed until sometime next year but I could be pleasantly surprised.
I don’t blame the zoo for wanting to build the Canadian Wilderness area because some of the domain exhibits are hard to look at. But then would the Moose, Bison and Elk all be integrated together? Also what would happen to the old Canadian Domain exhibits?
Now this is speculation so right thread for it.
The main reason the domain is moving besides the state of the facilities is the hill. It is too steep to meet regulations and there is really no way they can make it more gentle. The space simply doesn't allow for it. Not only is it a killer for guests to hike up and down it, it must be dangerous for staff driving up and down it particularly in the winter. Plus from late fall through early spring the animals all located there are off limits so you miss all those iconic Canadian animals who could be on display for the winter as a draw for guests at that time of year. It would still need a reno though even if it was on the same elevation as the rest of the zoo because it just hasn't been touched in any big way since opening.
Plans have been shown for what it could be a number of times in say the last 10 years. In all of the plans I have seen the zoo will combine bison and elk but never the moose. The moose will get their own exhibit. Again that could change. I like the idea of moose separate. In each version I have seen the elk/bison exhibit is a drive thru. There has been rotating options too on the idea of a pavilion. The first plan I saw showed a new pavilion for North American animals. Then the master plan showed a conversion of the Australiasia pavilion to Canada. That seemed to be an idea quickly dropped. Now they seem interested again in a new pavilion. Who knows what will happen when they eventually get around to it.
As of the master plan the Canadian Domain will be made partially into a camping experience much like the Serengeti Bush Camp. And if I recall correctly more of the domain was to be replanted and allowed to go to forest with hiking trails. However with the new master plan who knows. Its a lot of open space down there.
I have long thought it would be good space to establish a breeding center. They have several large field paddocks that with new big barns could be converted for use with hoofstock. A big problem the Canadian zoos all face is getting hoofstock across the border to create more genetic diversity in the Canadian population. If they could even bring up a few bachelor males in groups every so many years and Toronto held them their genetics could be mixed into our herds and their sons held until they can be sent south or until they were needed up here. We could also just use that space for Canadian breeding programs. Move the marmot, ferret and shrike breeding programs to new facilities down there. Room to expand on what they have. Maybe join other programs like whooping cranes, burrowing owls, sage grouse, ect. If the new monorail is still a go that could also impact what they decide to do down there.
Regardless anything happening down there is likely a long time away. First the Canadian Wilderness would need to be built and the animals relocated. If a new pavilion is build that will empty out the Americas. Just think no otters or beavers (the big draws). I think they would take everything from North America, not just Canada so that would empty out half of the pavilion. Even if they don't do a major reno to the Americas it will be more important to refill the pavilion than it will be to do something with the Domain. I think other visible projects will be considered more pressing. The new master plan will give some idea what they may do with the domain but one thing to keep in mind is the further things are out the less stock you should put into any plans. The zoo sets out lofty plans that see things happening in short periods of time but it seldom executes plans anywhere near close to the timeline. Over a 10 to 25 year period (the usual time frames for master plans) lots can and should change.
The main reason the domain is moving besides the state of the facilities is the hill. It is too steep to meet regulations and there is really no way they can make it more gentle. The space simply doesn't allow for it. Not only is it a killer for guests to hike up and down it, it must be dangerous for staff driving up and down it particularly in the winter. Plus from late fall through early spring the animals all located there are off limits so you miss all those iconic Canadian animals who could be on display for the winter as a draw for guests at that time of year. It would still need a reno though even if it was on the same elevation as the rest of the zoo because it just hasn't been touched in any big way since opening.
Plans have been shown for what it could be a number of times in say the last 10 years. In all of the plans I have seen the zoo will combine bison and elk but never the moose. The moose will get their own exhibit. Again that could change. I like the idea of moose separate. In each version I have seen the elk/bison exhibit is a drive thru. There has been rotating options too on the idea of a pavilion. The first plan I saw showed a new pavilion for North American animals. Then the master plan showed a conversion of the Australiasia pavilion to Canada. That seemed to be an idea quickly dropped. Now they seem interested again in a new pavilion. Who knows what will happen when they eventually get around to it.
As of the master plan the Canadian Domain will be made partially into a camping experience much like the Serengeti Bush Camp. And if I recall correctly more of the domain was to be replanted and allowed to go to forest with hiking trails. However with the new master plan who knows. Its a lot of open space down there.
I have long thought it would be good space to establish a breeding center. They have several large field paddocks that with new big barns could be converted for use with hoofstock. A big problem the Canadian zoos all face is getting hoofstock across the border to create more genetic diversity in the Canadian population. If they could even bring up a few bachelor males in groups every so many years and Toronto held them their genetics could be mixed into our herds and their sons held until they can be sent south or until they were needed up here. We could also just use that space for Canadian breeding programs. Move the marmot, ferret and shrike breeding programs to new facilities down there. Room to expand on what they have. Maybe join other programs like whooping cranes, burrowing owls, sage grouse, ect. If the new monorail is still a go that could also impact what they decide to do down there.
Regardless anything happening down there is likely a long time away. First the Canadian Wilderness would need to be built and the animals relocated. If a new pavilion is build that will empty out the Americas. Just think no otters or beavers (the big draws). I think they would take everything from North America, not just Canada so that would empty out half of the pavilion. Even if they don't do a major reno to the Americas it will be more important to refill the pavilion than it will be to do something with the Domain. I think other visible projects will be considered more pressing. The new master plan will give some idea what they may do with the domain but one thing to keep in mind is the further things are out the less stock you should put into any plans. The zoo sets out lofty plans that see things happening in short periods of time but it seldom executes plans anywhere near close to the timeline. Over a 10 to 25 year period (the usual time frames for master plans) lots can and should change.
TZFan I didn’t even think of converting the old paddocks into breeding facilities. Speaking of which on Dolf DeJong’s social media he just put on his story that today was Bison “Repro” day. I’m going to guess this is hinting at the idea that they were working on artificial insemination or the were integrating the males with the females.