Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Discussion thread 2020

@Akula it is very likely you are correct about the bison breeding today then. The zoo is working on AI with bison so I think its unlikely that the boys are with the girls. They are far more likely to continue work on AI then go with natural breeding.

Just remember the breeding facility idea for the domain is strictly me just throwing my ideas out there. No where have I read or heard that its even an option. In fact I think it is unlikely because they have that new land to the north of the zoo they have plans to use for a breeding facility and browse lot.
 
TZFan said:
@Akula it is very likely you are correct about the bison breeding today then. The zoo is working on AI with bison so I think its unlikely that the boys are with the girls. They are far more likely to continue work on AI then go with natural breeding.

Just remember the breeding facility idea for the domain is strictly me just throwing my ideas out there. No where have I read or heard that its even an option. In fact I think it is unlikely because they have that new land to the north of the zoo they have plans to use for a breeding facility and browse lot.
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Wood bison that is ...
 
Aquarium du Quebec has announced the passing of their adult female Atlantic walrus, Arnaliaq. This begs the question of what will happen to the walrus deal? The zoo billed the loan as a chance to study the mother calf relationship. Well now that's shot. They could still bring in Lakina but what benefit does that really bring? She shouldn't be pregnant. I think she's still too young plus her options for mates are her father Boris or brother Balzak. I guess they could bring in any of the walruses and the zoo could study something else. I just think they were banking hard on a walrus calf which would cause attendance to just skyrocket like the panda cubs did.

We could temporarily host them if the move was really to give the aquarium time to do some renos I suppose. But is the cost of the renos in a pandemic world worth it for a single walrus? Would they even send a single walrus? Would they send us all three walruses? To the best of my knowledge no construction has started so it would be fairly easy to just cancel the project. Although improving the nursery yard is probably worth it for the welfare of the polar bears but not something the need to do this second. With the enormous financial hit the zoo has taken is this really a project the zoo wants to or even should tackle? Flip side to that is what is the zoo projecting revenues would be from hosting the walruses? They would be the main draw for their first summer probably on levels close to if not as good as the pandas. But a calf was a big part of their planning so they would likely want to look at the numbers again. So many angles to look at and good arguments could be made either way.

I won't be sad if the walruses do come. Don't get me wrong. They were in the top 3 animals I would want to add to the zoo but I thought walruses were an absolute pipe dream. I was pretty psyched about the announcement almost no one saw coming. So much has happened since then. The deal almost seems cursed. Female polar bear Taiga died (reminder she was joining the girls in Toronto while the boys would move to the aquarium to join Eddy). The zoo couldn't get renos made for the 2020 opening. A pandemic. The adult female walrus who was to be pregnant dies. Cursed? Seems that way. If I think about it from a cost and welfare issue I am not so sure I will be sad if the deal is cancelled too. Ultimately both of the calves would be better served moving to the US to breed with animals down there. Boris could then be sent eligible bachelorettes from the states currently paired with unproven males. And the money that was to be spent can be reallocated to say the orang exhibit or new sea otter/penguin exhibit.

I didn't post this in developments or animal news because clearly with her just dying there is no way what so ever that the zoo has made a decision. Purely speculation on my part and honestly I could see it going either way. The zoo already announced it so a lot of people will be disappointed. But it was also announced so long ago now I'm sure plenty of people have also forgot about it and wouldn't even be bothered. I would love to hear other peoples opinions on it. As you can probably tell I'm torn as to what direction this will go.
 
Now it definitely seems like this deal wasn’t meant to happen. This just sucks. First Taiga and now Arnaliaq. I certainly agree with the idea cancel the project TZFAN. But why can Canadian Zoos and American Zoos trade aquatic animals? Because then wouldn’t that increase the genetic diversity?
 
@Akula, you ask a very complicated question and one that there are probably quite a few people much better versed on it.

In Canada there is the ban on cetaceans (whales, dolphins and porpoises) which given that Marineland is the only one in Canada with a real population and had been breeding is kind of a limited issue. I know Vancouver still has one... I want to say porpoise but it hadn't been breeding in years. Add to that the whole debate on cetaceans in captivity and things can get sticky. I think we have a thread about the whole ban process and more of the details. I honestly don't remember much about it.

The loans of polar bears across the border is a US issue. They have laws that ban the import of Canadian bears and there are super strict regulations on their wild born bears. The USFW has to approve any breeding of wild born bears which currently it is not doing. This one is an issue you can find several threads on where some very well versed people discuss it more in depth. It can be a very interesting topic.

I know rescued sea otters from the US have come to Canada. Vancouver Aquarium's newest otter pup is from the US. It's a non breeding population so I think when someone needs a home they put out the call and then see what home will work best. Usually otters rescued from Canadian waters stay at the aquarium and US otters can easily find homes in the US but some end up elsewhere based on need.

I honestly don't know the situation with pinnipeds (seals, sea lions, walruses ect). I think usually where its rescued is where it stays. I think all of the seals and sea lions in Canada except at Marineland were rescues. I can't speak to their seals and sea lions' origins. I know Marineland imported a lot of walruses from Russia but I really don't know where Aquarium Du Quebec's Pacific walruses came from. The Atlantic was a rescue at a month old (only know that from her obituary). There might be federal laws on either side of the border. The general forum has a thread on walruses world wide where there are some incredibly knowledgeable people. There are also several pinniped threads with various discussions going on. Its been awhile since I looked at any. Those would be the places to find the experts on that.

All can boil down to the border can be a pill sometimes. Canada also has trouble with hoofstock and primates. Took Calgary nearly two years to get their new silverback Jasiri from Atlanta for example.
 
TZFan said:
I honestly don't know the situation with pinnipeds (seals, sea lions, walruses ect). I think usually where its rescued is where it stays. I think all of the seals and sea lions in Canada except at Marineland were rescues. I can't speak to their seals and sea lions' origins. I know Marineland imported a lot of walruses from Russia but I really don't know where Aquarium Du Quebec's Pacific walruses came from. The Atlantic was a rescue at a month old (only know that from her obituary). There might be federal laws on either side of the border. The general forum has a thread on walruses world wide where there are some incredibly knowledgeable people. There are also several pinniped threads with various discussions going on. Its been awhile since I looked at any. Those would be the places to find the experts on that.
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Actually the majority of pinnipeds in Canada were intentional acquisitions, aside from Harbor Seals:

Vancouver Aquarium
Stellers Sea Lions-Wild caught as pups for ongoing research reasons
North Fur Seals-Wild caught as pups for ongoing research reasons
California Sea Lion-Single male is a blind rescue
Pacific Harbor Seals-All non-releasable rescues

West Edmonton Mall:
California Sea Lions-All four are captive bred and were sourced from Europe

Edmonton Valley Zoo:
Northern Fur Seal-Intentionally wild caught as adults for exhibit purposes (and one captive born)
Pacific Harbor Seal-Rescue
Atlantic Harbor Seal-I believe all are captive bred

Assiniboine Park Zoo
Pacific Harbor Seal-Rescues

Marineland:
California Sea Lions-All captive bred at Seaworld Orlando
Walrus-One intentionally caught as a pup, the other captive bred at the park
Harbor Seal-Most, if not all are non-releasable rescues
Grey Seal-She's very old, but I believe was originally wild caught or zoo born and not a rescue.

Aquarium Du Quebec:
Walrus-Breeding male originally wild caught as a pup, other 2 captive bred
Harp Seal: Unknown, but likely intentionally caught
Harbor Seal-Unknown, but likely rescues or bred from rescues
Grey Seal-I think they still have a single, old, captive bred female.

Marine Institue:
Harp Seals-Intentionally wild caught, I believe
Hybrid Seal-Captive bred
 
I knew someone would be much better informed about the pinnipeds in Canada. I kind of thought you would be the source of that better info Hyak II.

I didn't realize there were captive harp seals. I thought we had at least one of the other species. I know its kind of dragging things off topic but are the harp seals breeding groups? Also do you know what the Marine Institute's hybrid is a cross between?
 
Hi, all its been a couple days since I logged on and I guess I missed a lot on the future breeding. But it noticed it had been a while since a yak was born at the zoo and was wondering why? Also I can’t believe Nikita and Aurora are twenty which brings the question what’s the future of the polar bear exhibit going to be?
 
Unlikely they'll breed the bears again so Aurora and Nikita I doubt they'll breed at all aside from her lack of motherly instinct Aurora is well represented within the Canadian populatin age since Nikita is her sister there's not much genetic difference.
Right now the captive Canadian Polar Bear population seems to be at capacity unless something drastic happens in Cochrane.
Europe also doesn't seem like much of a chance at present, not sure if bears can get covid but if cats, dogs and mustelids susceptibile is not much of a leap to think they are as well.
With space available the three Quebec City Aquarium and wanting to give everyone some breathing room I think sending the boys there on loan even if we don't necessarily get anything in return right away.
I think Junos approaching breeding age I'm sure someone else knows, but not sure how valuable her genes are.
 
Basically this is how the polar bears shake out at the zoo.

Aurora is highly unlikely to be bred again but not because of lack of instinct. She cannot produce milk and that is watch actually killed all cubs since the first two eaten litters (except Hudson who was rescued with a large wound). Frankly it is appalling that Humphrey and Juno exist because the evidence was in by the third litter which was a total loss that Aurora just isn't meant for motherhood. 3 for 13 not great odds but I did research the zoos other female polar bears and she's not the worst survival rate. Sanikiluaq was 1 for 7 and Bisitek was 0 for 13 meaning the zoo as a whole is 4 for 33. She is also as kingoffreaks mentioned extremely well represented with 3 cubs and a sister.

Nikita would be stupid to breed genetically for the same reason but not much worry of her breeding. They tried breed her with Inukshuk the whole time they bred Aurora and got nothing. They did all kinds of hormone therapy with her once they knew Inukshuk was capable. She never had a time they seriously thought they would get cubs from her.

Hudson and Humphrey obviously couldn't breed with any of the girls in Toronto. They both lived in Winnipeg as youngsters to socialize and if they were ever to breed it would likely be to one of Winnipeg's lovely ladies. However that option is extremely unlikely at the moment. Winnipeg is not interested in breeding or not allowed as all of their bears are rescues. Not sure which of the two it is. All of their fully mature males have been neutered. They have two younger males just outside of breeding age that have yet to be neutered. So I think breeding here in Canada is unlikely for them. If Winnipeg wont breed their unrepresented males I can't see why they would want to breed their girls with overrepresented males. The only other females available for them would be Zoo Sauvage's girls and since only have their sons that they are related to they could breed with 5 males without touching a descendent of Inukshuk. And as kingoffreaks also mentioned we are at or very near capacity in Canada with zero hope of transfers to the US and obviously low chances of sending surplus cubs to Europe or Japan since the boys are still here after years of trying to get them to Europe (Europe needs boys while Japan needs girls). Right now I think the plan is still to send the boys to Aquarium Du Quebec but that could change if the walrus deal falls through. Zoo Sauvage will also be needing a home for their young males within the next year or so who knows if that will change things.

Juno is the only potential breeder I think the zoo viably has. She currently would have 5 mate choices, Henry or Eddy (Cochrane), Yelle (Zoo Sauvage) with potential of his sons down the line, or York and Baffin (Winnipeg). With Aquarium Du Quebec renovating their exhibit and the death of their female Inukshuks other daughter, Taiga, maybe the deal will change and they will take on Juno as a breeder with whatever male. Again space for cubs is an issue so unlikely. I know back when the zoo really thought the boys would go to Europe soon they were eyeing Juno as their future breeder so that could still be the plan for all I know. I wouldn't hold out much hope of that in the near future unless Toronto could ship Hudson, Humphrey and big brother Ganuk to Europe freeing a little space at home.

And just to deal with our other bears who don't live at the zoo, Inukshuk and Ganuk. Both live together at Cochrane with unrelated males Henry and Eddy. Inukshuk has 4 surviving adult cubs. The only way I see him breeding again is if cubs are needed and unrepresented males all strike out. Ganuk is in the same boat as his little half brothers, just overrepresented.

When it comes to the yaks I believe Hubert is neutered. Don't quote me on it. There really isn't much need for the zoo to breed them. They are just domestic yaks and they could just buy them from a farm like they did when they got the herd in the first place. Same reason they won't breed the watusi. Just unnecessary when they are readily available elsewhere.
 
Polar bear, Juno, has been promoted by the army yet again on her birthday which falls on Remembrance Day. She's achieved the rank of Honorary Master Corporal. Good to see her moving up the ranks again. Her career really stalled out there for 3 years. Lol! I do think it's a fun tradition.
 
Speaking of Juno I was at the zoo today and saw her and she looks pretty rough.
There's a sign saying she and Hudson have ringworm.
Hudson looks like he's completely recovered but Juno looks like she's either been shaved or lost a lot of fur.
Has anyone heard anything about her health?
 
I have a friend who visits a ton and said that she was a lot worse off then Hudson ever was. He's already back with Humphrey which would indicate he's fully recovered. But that same friend said Juno is looking better than she had been looking so I guess its been a lot of fur loss for her. She probably had it first and it took awhile before they realized she had it. By the time Hudson came down with it they were on the watch and caught it much sooner. I think she has hair loss and hasn't been shaved because its patchy in spots where the fur is actually longer not shorter. She does look rough though.

My family had an experience of a pet with ring worm and the vet said it would be a long treatment process that was somewhat involved. Since it was a recent purchase my parents backed out due to the risk to our other pets and us. If it was going to be hard to treat in a little chinchilla I can imagine how much harder it must be in a polar bear you cant force to do anything.

Thankfully the others haven't got it. Could you imagine having to treat 5 adult polar bears for ring worm at once?

It's also possible that Juno and Hudson having ring worm slowed down the renos on their exhibit. We were told it was a significant risk to us so I would assume the zoo would limit access to their house to only essential staff. Might not even matter though if the walrus deal has fallen apart.
 
You're welcome. Just happened I talked to that friend a few days ago and they told me about it. Hopefully she starts getting that fur back soon. Could be a hard winter for her without it. Might be meant for the arctic but she's meant for it with a thick coat and lots of fat. She seems even thinner too but that could be the lack of fur.
 
Does anyone happen to know when Budi is out? Every time I go it is always Puppe or Kembali out.
 
Visited the zoo today just before the lockdown comes into effect. Most of my time was spent in the pavilions due to weather.

Both sections of the Indian rhino building had rhinos in them. No sign of the babirusa at the moment.

Orangutans Ramai and Sekali were on display today in the Indomalaya Pavilion. The crocodile newts were quite visible today, as they were typically out of sight on many of my visits. It was also neat seeing one of the gibbons walking on the exhibit floor and watching hornbill Jonah gulp down some fruit.

The gorilla troop was quite active today. Among the highlights of what I saw included Nneka dragging a food bowl across the entire enclosure with Ngozi and Charlie trying to catch it, Charlie standing on top of a rope climbing structure and beating her chest and the many gorillas relaxing on the fallen tree. I'm also suprised to see how big Nassir has gotten; I've seen him ever since he was an infant and now I've seen him today as a nearly full-grown gorilla. It's impressive to see the size of these animals when they're up close.

The first major snowfall of the season worked wonders for many residents of Tundra Trek. The entire pack of wolves was quite active (there's about 14 of them in total!), with play-fighting and hopping into the ground for food being observed. The caribou were really energetic today, with many of them chasing each other around or standing in the frigid air. The polar bears weren't as active, but I did manage to see all five of them. I guess sometimes even the worst of weather can bring out the best in animals!

Perhaps the most interesting thing I saw was how energetic Suva was. I saw him rolling around in the fresh snowfall, running around the enclosure and climbing up trees (despite falling down once or twice).
 
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