Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Discussion thread 2023
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I'm curious if the fate of our beloved elephants would be different with our current CEO, in terms of them going to an AZA facility vs being pushed to PAWS vs staying at TZ
I do miss seeing them though. I was recently at Budapest Zoo, with my cousin, and they had the cutest baby wandering around and a massive Bull in the back, with ties to Chester Zoo (that my cousin worked at!).
When I visit other zoos around the world, I often find myself comparing TZ habitats/yards to the other facility.
I do miss seeing them though. I was recently at Budapest Zoo, with my cousin, and they had the cutest baby wandering around and a massive Bull in the back, with ties to Chester Zoo (that my cousin worked at!).
When I visit other zoos around the world, I often find myself comparing TZ habitats/yards to the other facility.
@RNg0905, Nothing would have changed. The last CEO had no more say than the keepers. Once the zoo rightly decided to end the program... just cost too much to do what was necessary for the good health of northern elephants and unrealistic to think we could get a brand new herd... thats when things turned south fast. The activists smelled blood in the water and attacked. It was taken out of the zoos control by city council in a way that never should have happened but legally could. Its why the AZA yanked membership so quickly. If I remember correctly the city told staff they werent allowed to discuss the elephants with the press purposely silencing them. The CEO couldnt defend the zoo any more than the keepers could. They are all city employees. The city ensured it was a one sided PR campaign in favor of the activists. Had the city let the keepers and CEO defend the zoo it might have been a more even fight because they could present a fair argument for an AZA facility. But no the councillors had made their decision and they didnt care what damage was done to the zoo.
Dont get me wrong the last CEO was highly ineffective. Im not saying hes a bad person. He just wasnt the right fit. The zoo needed someone who got how to drive attendance up and had vision. Dolf is the right man at the right time for the zoo and hopefully we can keep him around a good 20 plus years to see the master plan he has developed take shape.
As for what was best for the elephants. The zoo did its research before ending the program. There were a ton of factors at play. Biggest cost. At the time they estimated to build an exhibit up to AZA new regs (and exceed them to prepare for future changes) and ensure there was a big enough barn for elephants who have to spend as much time inside as Canadian elephants do, would be something in the neighbourhood of $25 million. Doesnt sound too bad when we know the orang exhibit cost $12 million but gotta remember thats 2009 dollars. Google says that would be more than $35 million today. And we all know the zoo is never on budget. It probably would have ballooned. The zoo simply couldnt afford to go all in like that on a single species. That kind of cost would probably mean all other projects would be on hold for a super long time. Then you need to think of the space needed. They were going to build a new exhibit that stretched from the old exhibit all along the back of the savanna to the top of the domain hill, over taking at the hippo exhibit, bush camp ect. Would have been cool but that is a massive amount of space dedicated again to a single species. The zoo could do so much more with that space should they ever choose to. Also AZA elephant regs had changed. You needed to keep at least 3 elephants for their mental and social well being. At the time Toronto had 3 older elephants. They were gonna need to source a new herd. If you are gonna invest that much cash you want a young herd that is breeding. Reality was Toronto was either going to have to take on a bachelor herd or import from Africa. The bachelors would require bulked up planning. An imported group would face backlash from the animal rights community. That kinda battle wasnt worth it. Plus they still would need to ship out the girls while they built and probably for life anyway. Even if they could keep them then they would need to build for senior elephants. Problem after problem. Honestly the best decision was to end the program. Just made sense for so many reasons.
I think if Tantor had lived and the zoo had been able to breed through the 90s and 2000's the zoo probably would have invested in their multigenerational herd. But breeding stalled out in 1989 when he died. People only remember the zoo raising one calf. Other than Thika only Thumpe lived and she was shipped out by two years old. People didnt remember seeing the calves grow up and play. There was young blood to bring in a new male for... well I mean they should have replaced Tantor right away but they didnt really like dealing with a bull in musth so didnt. The program was really died with Tantor. Just took the zoo 20 years to figure it out.
Dont get me wrong the last CEO was highly ineffective. Im not saying hes a bad person. He just wasnt the right fit. The zoo needed someone who got how to drive attendance up and had vision. Dolf is the right man at the right time for the zoo and hopefully we can keep him around a good 20 plus years to see the master plan he has developed take shape.
As for what was best for the elephants. The zoo did its research before ending the program. There were a ton of factors at play. Biggest cost. At the time they estimated to build an exhibit up to AZA new regs (and exceed them to prepare for future changes) and ensure there was a big enough barn for elephants who have to spend as much time inside as Canadian elephants do, would be something in the neighbourhood of $25 million. Doesnt sound too bad when we know the orang exhibit cost $12 million but gotta remember thats 2009 dollars. Google says that would be more than $35 million today. And we all know the zoo is never on budget. It probably would have ballooned. The zoo simply couldnt afford to go all in like that on a single species. That kind of cost would probably mean all other projects would be on hold for a super long time. Then you need to think of the space needed. They were going to build a new exhibit that stretched from the old exhibit all along the back of the savanna to the top of the domain hill, over taking at the hippo exhibit, bush camp ect. Would have been cool but that is a massive amount of space dedicated again to a single species. The zoo could do so much more with that space should they ever choose to. Also AZA elephant regs had changed. You needed to keep at least 3 elephants for their mental and social well being. At the time Toronto had 3 older elephants. They were gonna need to source a new herd. If you are gonna invest that much cash you want a young herd that is breeding. Reality was Toronto was either going to have to take on a bachelor herd or import from Africa. The bachelors would require bulked up planning. An imported group would face backlash from the animal rights community. That kinda battle wasnt worth it. Plus they still would need to ship out the girls while they built and probably for life anyway. Even if they could keep them then they would need to build for senior elephants. Problem after problem. Honestly the best decision was to end the program. Just made sense for so many reasons.
I think if Tantor had lived and the zoo had been able to breed through the 90s and 2000's the zoo probably would have invested in their multigenerational herd. But breeding stalled out in 1989 when he died. People only remember the zoo raising one calf. Other than Thika only Thumpe lived and she was shipped out by two years old. People didnt remember seeing the calves grow up and play. There was young blood to bring in a new male for... well I mean they should have replaced Tantor right away but they didnt really like dealing with a bull in musth so didnt. The program was really died with Tantor. Just took the zoo 20 years to figure it out.
hyena142
Well-Known Member
I have to imagine the plan is for them to winter down there for breeding, there's no other reason for them to be sent to the Domain. I guess the spider monkey exhibit wasn't private enough for Katya? It's a good idea to spend the next month or so getting them acclimated to the exhibit, then when the Domain closes for the winter they'll be used to the exhibit and can have some privacy for breeding. Fingers crossed!
The fact that it's a multi-week reno according to a staff member on Zoolife makes me feel like they're adding something, that exhibit could use a bit of freshening up for sure
The fact that it's a multi-week reno according to a staff member on Zoolife makes me feel like they're adding something, that exhibit could use a bit of freshening up for sure
hyena142
Well-Known Member
That'd be unbelievably nice to have, I went quite a few times this summer and checked in on Zoolife even more frequently and I saw Pemba a grand total of zero times because he always stays behind the scenes in the aircon. It'd be so great if he became more reliable to see even in the hot months like Ena was
hyena142
Well-Known Member
Had a nice visit today, here's some updates
-I heard from a friendly volunteer what the current status of all the orangs going out into the outdoor exhibit is. Puppe has explored the whole thing, Budi and Kembali have explored all of the ground level area but haven't braved the o-lines yet, Ramai and Jingga have been out but stay close to the research centre, and Wali is eager to go out but Sekali is having none of it. I also got to see a very fun interaction between Sekali, Wali and a service dog, that was cute
-Electric fences have been installed at the windows of the indoor gorilla exhibit. The gorillas can still get very close but they can't brush up right against them like they used to. I guess the phones problem got to a point where there was no other option. It looks like the window that was under construction has been closed off instead of replaced.
-There were two marabous in the kudu exhibit today, Zuri and someone else. I'm guessing Gracie needed to be separated from George for some reason
-After years of searching I finally found the tawny frogmouth hiding spot! Sure it's not Makepeace anymore but I'm just happy to have found it. He was up in the pine tree in the third netted off area.
-The snow leopard construction looks to be bigger than I was expecting, the entire exhibit area is closed off, there's a small crane parked outside and a lot of the rockwork is covered by tarps.
-Construction on the third Amur tiger exhibit looks to have resumed, they're currently in the process of attaching the fence to the posts
-I heard from a friendly volunteer what the current status of all the orangs going out into the outdoor exhibit is. Puppe has explored the whole thing, Budi and Kembali have explored all of the ground level area but haven't braved the o-lines yet, Ramai and Jingga have been out but stay close to the research centre, and Wali is eager to go out but Sekali is having none of it. I also got to see a very fun interaction between Sekali, Wali and a service dog, that was cute
-Electric fences have been installed at the windows of the indoor gorilla exhibit. The gorillas can still get very close but they can't brush up right against them like they used to. I guess the phones problem got to a point where there was no other option. It looks like the window that was under construction has been closed off instead of replaced.
-There were two marabous in the kudu exhibit today, Zuri and someone else. I'm guessing Gracie needed to be separated from George for some reason
-After years of searching I finally found the tawny frogmouth hiding spot! Sure it's not Makepeace anymore but I'm just happy to have found it. He was up in the pine tree in the third netted off area.
-The snow leopard construction looks to be bigger than I was expecting, the entire exhibit area is closed off, there's a small crane parked outside and a lot of the rockwork is covered by tarps.
-Construction on the third Amur tiger exhibit looks to have resumed, they're currently in the process of attaching the fence to the posts
Not surprised Sekali is being the most cautious of the orangs. She has a precious infant to keep safe.
What a bummer about the gorilla exhibit. I dont know that Nassir's fascination with screens was the reason. The zoo said he was back to normal behaviors because guests respected the request for the most part. Maybe they were just being polite.
The other option for the second marabou could be Ethel who did do outreach. Maybe they have just retired her to exhibit life.
Congrats on the frogmouth victory! There are several animals who are hard to spot and that is one.
What a bummer about the gorilla exhibit. I dont know that Nassir's fascination with screens was the reason. The zoo said he was back to normal behaviors because guests respected the request for the most part. Maybe they were just being polite.
The other option for the second marabou could be Ethel who did do outreach. Maybe they have just retired her to exhibit life.
Congrats on the frogmouth victory! There are several animals who are hard to spot and that is one.
Van Beal
Well-Known Member
I'll be visiting the zoo on Saturday, and I'm bummed because already my family has vetoed my requests to head down to the Canadian Domain 
but besides that I'll be sure to get lots of photos, write some things down, and give a general update on how my trip goes once it's all said and done 
but besides that I'll be sure to get lots of photos, write some things down, and give a general update on how my trip goes once it's all said and done 
Jefferson
Well-Known Member
Enjoy, the zoo is planning both a Multicultural Festival this weekend and Celebrating Puppe’s 56th Birthday on Saturday. I am hoping that means celebrating outside and you will have a chance to see her on exhibit. I imagine it will be weather dependent but their might be more news on the Zoo's Socials.
Van Beal
Well-Known Member
That's amazing! The birthday celebration lines up with my visit so I'll be sure to try to get a peek of Puppe outside.
Zoo adventures
Well-Known Member
If you read TZ Fan forum,(Toronto zoo Births, Deaths and Transfers 2023) You will see that Kiko will go to Calgary and Matu to the Lincoln Children's Zoo. And there will be Nabo from Calgary