Twycross Zoo Twycross Orangutan moves.

1. I think getting Monkey World to take their old chimps would be an excellent idea. I'll bet they (Monkey World) would have them altogether, or mixed in with their other groups, in a short space of time.:)

2. The tiled indoor cages started with their early designs, and don't seem to have changed since.:(

3. Chester would definately build an excellent Gorilla enclosure. I think the chimpanzee one is probably the best I've seen (inside and out). They nearly got Chessington's group at one stage but it didn't happen. They were going to build an enclosure for them specifically at that time.

4. I've never understood how Twycross can be part of EEP breeding programmes, yet maintain unbred Gorillas and Elephants in the collection for many years without any moves being made to get them producing young. I don't know if recommendations are made to them about this, or not??
 
That`s a problem with the EEPs and many zoos, not just Twycross. Twycross owns its gorillas and elephants and therefore they can`t be legally forced to change something. I am sure that Twycross is getting recommendations to regarding the elephants since years - they just don`t follow them. Maybe it`s not "no we will never take a bull", maybe it`s more like "we`re thinking about it... no not yet...ask again in 2 years..." and so on. To gain time.
If the gorilla or elephant females were owned by another zoo and Twycross refuses to follow the EEP recommendations, that zoo can force them to send the animals back or to another zoo. But when the animals are owned by the zoo who refuses to cooperate itself, the EEP can`t do much. They can kick them out of the EEP and cancel their EAZA membership but this is so drastic that it is very rarely done. I think the EAZA should take a more agressive approach of the problem.
 
jelle said:
And I second that we - taun, Pertinax and all the rest of us - petition Twycross Zoo as a positive action to do something drastic about the Twycross ape accomodation inside and outside wise! :D :rolleyes:

If the damn management can afford to build a new visitor center at 11 million pounds, why can not they fund new decent and state of the art ape accomodation!

Take it to the max, people!
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Why not create a consultantancy and for a reasonable fee with offer them guidance on enclosure design:p

The problem is there are not enough zoo's taking all there animal needs on board when designing their enclosures and are looking at making sure the public get what they paid for "animals on show".

Chester have struck a good balance in their newer enclosures and howletts claim they put there animal needs first (havn't been yeat so cant see if its true). But thats the best the animals will get because if zoo fail in the customers eyes they lose business. Its the sad truth about zoo's :(
 
Having visited Twycross today I can report that Norjahan (Asian Elephant) was given AI treatment a month ago with the results expected in the next 4 - 6 2weeks. On enquiry regarding the other three females, the keeper told me that no decision has yet been made about getting them in calf (or how). The recently refurbished elephant enclosure is allbut complete with just a walkway for the public to construct on the far side where it is planned to build a new lion and dhole enclosures (though I doubt that this will be until after the un-necessary new entrance and shop has been completed).
 
Yassa said:
Twycross owns its gorillas and elephants and therefore they can`t be legally forced to change something. I am sure that Twycross is getting recommendations to regarding the elephants since years - they just don`t follow them. Maybe it`s not "no we will never take a bull", maybe it`s more like "we`re thinking about it... no not yet...ask again in 2 years..." and so on. To gain time.
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There's certainly some of that in this situation. They told me they were 'reviewing' the elephant policy- and that was about three years ago....

As I've mentioned before, I feel the specific problems relating to Twycross are mostly historical. The collection was owned and directed by the two ladies who ran it together for decades.(Molly Badham having died very recently) They were simply not in line with trends in modern zoo or conservation thinking. Even as it grew, the zoo was still largely an animal 'collection' rather than a 'conservation' orientated organisation. If the animals bred, it was a bonus- if they didn't - never mind... I think that is still at the root of Twycross's husbandry and management issues.
 
Give the place a chance their has been some major changes to the personnel in charge at the zoo in the last 12 months,the new waterfowl exhibit is the start of the new era,as it is most definitely not a Twycross norm,from what i know of the plans for the zoo i would say in 10 years time it will be a very different place.Finally one of Twycross females Giraffes is pregnant pity it going to be yet another hybrid to find a home for.
 
Yassa said:
That`s a problem with the EEPs and many zoos, not just Twycross. If the gorilla or elephant females were owned by another zoo and Twycross refuses to follow the EEP recommendations, that zoo can force them to send the animals back or to another zoo. But when the animals are owned by the zoo who refuses to cooperate itself, the EEP can`t do much. They can kick them out of the EEP and cancel their EAZA membership but this is so drastic that it is very rarely done. I think the EAZA should take a more agressive approach of the problem.
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Yes, and its very wrong isn't it? Its a sort of loophole in the system, and means effectively that the EEP is virtually powerless in such situations. This private ownership is why the Aspinall Parks could happily refuse when in the past they were asked to make animals available to other participating zoos. John Aspinall just laughed at their requests and told them to get stuffed. But at least they were breeding from their animals themselves, whereas that's not the current situation with Twycross.
 
zoogiraffe said:
Give the place a chance their has been some major changes to the personnel in charge at the zoo in the last 12 months,from what i know of the plans for the zoo i would say in 10 years time it will be a very different place.
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I do hope so...

I am not knocking Twycross just for the sake of it. Some of their exhibits and breeding groups are fine. Many of their lesser primates in particular breed well while care and animal health are undoubtedly good across the board too. I just feel strongly there are serious and longstanding concerns over the management of some species there....
 
Pertinax said:
I do hope so...

I am not knocking Twycross just for the sake of it. Some of their exhibits and breeding groups are fine. Many of their lesser primates in particular breed well while care and animal health are undoubtedly good across the board too. I just feel strongly there are serious and longstanding concerns over the management of some species there....
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I second that opinion!


Zoogiraffe,

Honestly, I am not knocking Twycross Zoo either, but I have some reservations there ....... :confused: And I do think Twycross Zoo could be such a tremenduous advocate for primate conservation worldwide (entwine local breeding programmes with in situ conservation at the zoo and abroad).


You say dramatic management and personnel changes over the last 12 months have taken place. What indication is there the future for non-primate Twycross looks any better than it is right now? Do they have a long term plan for the zoo's development?

Should that not run concurrently with major changes 2 mega fauna at the park (giraffe, gorilla and elephant exhibits)? Should not the animals and conservation be at the forefront of new development (and not a very costly new visitor center)? A down-scaled development coupled with immediate improvement on some of the mega fauna exhibits is called for .. don't you think?

I look forward to your comments what they are planning for the foreseeable future of let's say 3-5 years from now ..........????
 
Pertinax, honestly I can understand why Aspinall often refused to send his animals to other zoos at the request of the EEP coordinator. For example when it comes to gorillas and rhinos, there are so many substandard enclosures in European zoos and nevertheless these zoos get gorillas and black rhinos from the EEP. The black rhino enclosures in all german zoos who have bred them in the last years are.... hm, far from ideal to say it mildly. Hannover, Magdeburg, Zoo Berlin, Krefeld... I would not send my rhino to any of these zoos. Neither would I send a gorilla to Hannover, Krefeld, Berlin, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Munich or Heidelberg.... (and some more). I would not send a gorilla to the new enclosure in London, neither. I can fully understand why zoos like the Apsinall parks which have such great enclosures for their animals and really put their welfare over visitor`s needs wants to keep control over where their animals are going.

The situation in Twycross is obviously very different, though!!
 
Yassa said:
Pertinax, honestly I can understand why Aspinall often refused to send his animals to other zoos at the request of the EEP coordinator.
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It was many years ago now but I remember he was asked to transfer several female Gorillas to other zoos in the UK(including Twycross!!!) He wrote a scathing attack in the International Zoo News(which I think he owned at the time) saying how animals which had been transferred out in the past had mostly not prospered or bred in their new locations,(which was true) and that they wouldn't comply with any more similar requests. Nowadays they do send Gorillas and other animals to other zoos 'on loan'- but these are still mostly spare males. They also usually make a proviso of receiving female offspring in exchange. I think in recent years they are possibly more sympathetic to EEP guidelines than they used to be in the olden days.

Re Rhinos- yes, many black rhino enclosures in Urban zoos are still far too small and unsuited to receiving new animals- especially ones previously used to having lots of space as at Port Lympne.
 
jelle said:
You say dramatic management and personnel changes over the last 12 months have taken place. What indication is there the future for non-primate Twycross looks any better than it is right now? Do they have a long term plan for the zoo's development?
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yeeees... I have some reservations about this too I'm afraid. I believe the 'new' management regime has been in situ for a lot more than twelve months now, but I'm still waiting to see the changes....
 
jelle said:
A question mark remains hovering over the gorillas. If Twycross really now make a move on with a young new silverback for the younger females and start a breeding group .. a big YES. Otherwise, send them all out on breeding loan elsewhere.

If the damn management can afford to build a new visitor center at 11 million pounds, why can not they fund new decent and state of the art ape accomodation!
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Options;

1. I think they will add a new male..... but it might take a while. Kumbuka at Paignton would be ideal, they could take him NOW!!!

2. If they don't want to do that, then send Asante (particularly) and Ozala to a proven breeding male as soon as possible. Ozala's son Matadi(4 years) should stay with his mother for some time yet though. He's genetically important and needs good social rearing, that also means not being placed in a batchelor group too early.

3. SamSam and Bongo and Biddy could stay on exhibit as they are. Biddy has a breeding daughter(ozala) so not so important if she doesn't breed anymore. Bongo will never breed- she's more like a male!

4. How many decent ape enclosures could they build for £11 million...:rolleyes:
 
At least 7!!!

The orang house at Chester was nearly 4 million, and the exhibit at London was 5 Million, so in theory, they could make loads more than that.
Saying that the new exhibit at LA, cost something in the region of $20 million
 
And I second that we - taun, Pertinax and all the rest of us - petition Twycross Zoo as a positive action to do something drastic about the Twycross ape accomodation inside and outside wise! [/QUOTE]

Hear hear! And surely if you donated to the fund for new orangutan equipment, and a large part of the money raised was used for something else that you wouldn't have contributed to (eg visitor facilities), then you could ask for your money back. They've got their priorities all wrong.
 
Jelle,

Will tell you what i can.i agree with you all over the concerns over the management of some species over the years but this was very much due to the to old dears(Nat and Molly) and a small number of keepers who are still stuck in the rut from that era.But on with what i know abour develoment plans as every one is aware the first is the new entrance/shop/restuarant and Snow Leopard enclosure and an aviary,their are plans for a new Lion and Dhole enclosures at the back of the Elephant House/Paddock,as for any changes to the primate enclosures their are none that i know of,alot of mammal species have been talked about bringing in including Rhino and Bears been the most un-Twycross animals mentioned,also their are plans to expand the bird collection the first of which is their new wetlands Aviarys exhibit which opened this year.As i hear of any other plans will let you know.
 
zoogiraffe said:
,as for any changes to the primate enclosures their are none that i know of,
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We seem to have opened a can of worms here... I didn't realise others felt strongly about the Ape accomodation and management situation as I do, but that's a good thing.:)

I really wouldn't expect to see any changes to the existing Ape enclosures, given the Bonobo and Gorilla ones are all quite recently built, while the Orangutan enclosure has been 'refurbished' and(soon) the number of inhabitants reduced. Its a sad fact they obviously have very many other more new developments which will take priority at present.

What COULD easily be done is some landscape improvements to make the existing enclosures more attractive and interesting, in the form of planting, climbing and enrichment facilities. And a new young male for Asante and Ozala a.s.a.p. Then I'd be a lot happier.:)
 
zoogiraffe said:
their are plans for a new Lion and Dhole enclosures at the back of the Elephant House/Paddock,
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Those I would approve of... the existing Asian Lion and Dhole enclosures are pretty small and basic so I can see the sense in building new modern ones.

I'm always surprised Twycross have no zebras- it seems an odd omission after all this time- and they are easy to house too...
 
zoogiraffe,

Thanx for letting us in on the plans on offer at Twycross. Some of these look good (dholes and Asian lions) and are of conservation value too. I guess their policy to bring in more mammalian and avian species is to broaden the scope of the zoo .. isn't it?

What interests me there .. is apart from a masterplan is there something like a new defined mission for the zoo after the Molly Badham era?

Do you agree the primate collection could serve as a focal point for ex situ and in situ conservation. Their strong point has always been colobines, cercopithecines, langurs and gibbons. Coupled with the successful great ape groups (bonobos and orang utans) that should count for something .. don't you think?

Cheers,

Jelle
 
They do now call them selves the World Primate Centre,which is a bit bold as their is a collection in Japan with more species.Wouldn`t say that cercopithecines was a strong point as the last time they bred one would probaly be in the late 80`s or early 90`s unless any one knows different,as for the rest yep i would agree Twycross has a good record and any zoo that has a good record with Langurs is fine with me but they could do so much more with them,someone i know use to be a keeper with the Langurs but he left to work at another zoo because he felt restricted in what he could do with them under Molly and Nat,forgot to mention they are thinking of building a house to handle a Bull Elephant.
 
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