Twycross Zoo Twycross Zoo elephants

Yassa said:
Sending her away was against the EEP guidelines and keeping all these breeding age females permanently without a bull too, but since the elephants are owned by the Twycross Zoo, the EEP can`t do anything against it. They could kick them out of the EEP and the EAZA, but such drastic actions are very, very rare.
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Yes that's part of the problem. Twycross are in effect free to continue managing their elephants in whatever way they choose. The two cows being sent to Chester for mating was probably a one -off (similarly they once sent two non-breeding gorillas away on breeding loan but didn't repeat that either)

I wonder what will happen if any of their other elephants become 'difficult' like Karishma ... Presumably Whipsnade have the facilities (protected contact?) to control her behaviour.
 
While a certain level of autonomy is essential to avoid the pitfalls of the AZA-accredited zoos in the US being punished for sending elderly elephants to sanctuaries, I would definitely agree with your point that the zoo is 'sitting' on a group of breeding age. It is telling that the animals have remained at Twycross for so long only for a 'boisterous' eight year-old calf to be removed from the group. True, even very young animals can kill, but I think the zoo runs value-added 'experience days' (correct me if I'm wrong here), where members of the public have quite close interaction with the elephants, and in this context the real reason for sending Karishma away may be clearer.
If the policy is to maintain a tractable, performing group of cow elephants, then certainly I can't see them having any plans to place any animals on breeding loan unless, like Karishma, they cease to earn their keep, so to speak.
 
Grantsmb, I think Whipsnade can manage female elephants in protected contact but from what I have been told they are working with Karishma in direct contact. I guess the seperation from her family and the integration into a new group where she has no support from her mother but is the lowest ranking female helped bringing her "under control" again... at least for now.
 
......... and I would expect to hear that she is pregnant in the not too distant future. Motherhood may calm her down too.
 
I see a lot of concern by all of us regarding the current no breeding situation for the Twycross elephants.

Yes, I do think it is unsatisfactory and yes we all wish for better management of the herd. The danger is that if Tonzi and Minbu are not bred soon and not twice, but thrice etcetera .......... their reproductive tracts may shut down completely. Secondly, AI is technically difficult, time and resource consuming and relatively expensive with no guarantee of quick success. On average only 30-40% of attempts are successful (and a bull is far more able to adequately judge the exact dates of receptiveness of a cow than AI could ever attempt to discover by regular hormone testing).

Some of us have hinted at a disjunct relationship to the EEP with Twycross owning their elephants. The way I understand the working of an EEP however is that zoos adhere to the recommendations put forward by the EEP Coordinator. If zoos are not willing to do so, they run the real risk of being taking off the EEP for operating in contravention of EEP rules. Twycross is certainly running the gauntlet on this. The case of Karishma is a pointer and I wonder whether advice had been sought from the EEP Coordinator prior to her being moved to Whipsnade (as official policy would be to send a matriarchal lineage - in this case both Minbu and Karishma).

However, I would like to wait and see at this moment what James Barber will brief us on the Twycross' future plans with the elephants shortly.
 
I would have to add that Twycross have been similarly lax in ensuring their Gorillas breed regularly too. They have five adult females, but have had only five births- to three of those females- in forty years or more keeping the species. In the older group no breeding occurred for many years because the male lost interest in the females.. In the younger group, one female, Asante has never been bred from, having grown up with the male from an early age, forming a platonic relationship with him(he died earlier this year). Some years ago both she and her non-breeding mother Eva, were loaned out for breeding- the attempt failed- Asante failed to breed (not really being given enough time to adapt) while the mother Eva became pregnant but lost the baby after returning to Twycross. This has never been repeated and neither have bred since. Eva is a wildcaught animal and Asante her only daughter, so both would be priority animals for breeding.

I mention all this as I feel there are parallels here with the Elephants. If the EEP have recommended any moves for those non-breeding Gorillas, it seems Twycross have ignored them. Yet they still say they have to ask the Gorilla EEP for permission in order to acquire(or exchange) animals. I think perhaps the EEP just haven't taken any issue with this situation...
 
Breeding these elephants

[QUOTE

However, I would like to wait and see at this moment what James Barber will brief us on the Twycross' future plans with the elephants shortly.[/QUOTE]

Are we expecting some news here :confused:
 
MARK said:
[QUOTE

However, I would like to wait and see at this moment what James Barber will brief us on the Twycross' future plans with the elephants shortly.
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Are we expecting some news here :confused:[/QUOTE]

You won't get any!!!! ;):)
 
James Barber said:
As I'm a volunteer at Twycross. There are plans for the Elephants, the zoo will never house a male bull as the enclosure and main house isn't large enough for one.
I can't tell you much at this stage about our 4 elephants but I will let you know very soon.
James
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grantsmb,

This is what I am waiting for.

James,

Can you tell us more now on the elephants at Twycross and the relationship with the EEP (You may have read our concerns there and the regulations zoos within EEP's are under)???

Cheers,

Jelle
 
Yes, I can see you're waiting for some further information on this from James Barber. However, I'm a bit doubtful that he'll be able to give us the Zoo's perspective on all of this, but I could of course be wrong there.
 
I guess the only elephant news we can await from Twycross is AI on one or more of the females. They won`t keep a bull unless they get a new director, and the enclosure has recently been refurbished, so AI is the only news I can imagine. A friend of me was told last year that they wanted to do AI on all females soon, that was a year ago, so something should happen in the near future.
 
Lets hope your friend is right or these females are just a waste in breeding terms, as we know they are an endangered species, if they could work with woburn it would be cool
 
If you look at what has happenend in the last 9 years since the birth of Tara and Karishma (=nothing) I fear it is possible that the talks about AI are not much more then a waiting game to avoid/delay being kicked out of the EEP for not following the advice of the EEP coordinator. I don`t know.
 
Yassa said:
If you look at what has happenend in the last 9 years since the birth of Tara and Karishma (=nothing) I fear it is possible that the talks about AI are not much more then a waiting game to avoid/delay being kicked out of the EEP for not following the advice of the EEP coordinator. I don`t know.
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I would think that is highly likely. I would expect that they will sooner or later attempt AI on at least one female, to be seen to be 'doing something' about this situation. However, I feel its very unlikely that it will more than one animal at a time, or that all four animals will be successfully AI'd in the near future. Its also more likely that Karishma at Whipsnade will now concieve(naturally) before them.
 
grantsmb said:
That is only a guess, I could be wrong about that but I know Twycross Zoo well and have always felt they are more concerned with display than breeding. For example, they have two groups of Gorillas, but in forty + years have only bred five.....

I think the historical aspect is important here too. Twycross Zoo was started by two ladies who had run a petshop together. From a few monkeys, it gradually grew into a very large Primate collection and many other species were added too. But even now their buildings are generally on a small scale and the elephant enclosure is by far the largest major building project they've ever undertaken.
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So what is Twycross Zoo's breeding record actually like? I know they are renowned for a comprehensive collection of primates, and seem to generally manage to maintain a collection of many rare and endangered species, but do they breed many species successfully relative to the numbers they keep?
 
Hadley said:
So what is Twycross Zoo's breeding record actually like? I know they are renowned for a comprehensive collection of primates, and seem to generally manage to maintain a collection of many rare and endangered species, but do they breed many species successfully relative to the numbers they keep?
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I can't give you exact numbers of breeding success, but broadly speaking, Twycross are probably as successful in breeding many species as other comparative sized collections.

Where they differ a bit from other zoos is the historical aspect.The two ladies who ran it(until recently) started the zoo as an extension of another small zoo they had- and consequently their husbandry, particularly of primates, was for several decades very 'pet' based, with many humanised animals(e.g.the earliest Gorillas, chimps and Orangutans).For example, in the early years, much revenue was obtained from TV commericials for 'Brooke Bond' tea using young chimps dressed as humans. A residue from that long distant era is a number of very old, humanised chimps which still live in pairs in some of the earliest cages. A number of the earlier primate babies were handraised though I sometimes wonder if this was always necessary. So many were raised in this fashion they aquired a reputation among zoos for their success in this sphere, though obviously it produced animals with uncertain ability to socialise properly.

In more recent years,many of the lesser primates, and also the Orangutans and Bonobos breed well but the Gorillas there have always been problematic.
And the accent nowadays is on natural rearing of course.

In the last couple of decades Twycross has diversified and added many other species- culminating in the Asian Elephant exhibit which has invoked much discussion on this Forum-due to the continuing absence of a Bull elephant....
 
I guess what I mean by successful breeding is to not only maintain, but to increase in number or self-sustain over many years with the occassional exchange to bring in new blood. I don't know a lot about twycross but they seem to have always managed to acquire rare species but many groups just appear to have lived out their lives at the zoo with the odd birth but ultimately have not sustained themselves. For example they seem to have had to replace malayan tapirs more than once over the last few years but I don't know of them breeding in the last decade at least. Their Macaroni penguins don't appear to breed well. Did the Red Howlers, Ukaris, and Proboscis monkeys that eventually died out ever breed? I read an article in the early 90's in IZN about a group of Bakial Seals maintained at the zoo, but these disappeared before long, I have no idea where or if they died out.

The impression I get is that Twycross have a reputation which somehow allows them to hold many species other UK zoos lower down the food chain would find difficult to acquire, yet the focus on breeding endangered species just doesn't seem as strong as say, chester or marwell. I think the comments here are interesting regarding the early history of this establishment, and in a few years I don't see them having any species that they do particularly well at over any other institution. Sure, they will still hold animals as part of EEP programs but I don't think they do exceptionally well at breeding a particular species.

It will be interesting to see how much trouble they go to in order to use AI on the remaining elephants there.
 
If they are not really that comitted to breeding the elephants they should send them on breeding loan to else where and stick to breeding primates
 
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