Twycross Zoo Twycross Zoo elephants

James,

Who are the parents to:
Assante born 6/6/1985
Ozala born 19/3/1994
Mambie born 24/3/1991 current location?
Matadi born 25/3/2003
Ndoki born 3/5/2007

I think Joe (45) should be kept with Bongo (42) as gorilla are a social species and both have been together previously. He is a non-breeder and she very much post reproductive anyway. Both their genes are basically lost to the captive population. Only semen collection on Joe remains an option. Semen storage is now quite well advanced in gorilla gene banking.

In the Twycross females I would advocate that Eva (34), Biddy (34) and Assante (22) are put into a breeding situation a.s.a.p. after reproductive evaluation. The latter as both Eva and Biddy are fairly old to conceive now (but not impossible: a recent stillbirth breeding of a 34-year old at Praha Zoo) and Assante to determine the cause of her not breeding/conceiving with Sekondi (I assume he was the latest breeding male).

Finally, a proven male should be introduced expeditiously to the Twycross troop by the EEP Coordinator. This in order to put gorilla breeding finally on the map here at Twycross. Five births inside 40 years of consistent gorilla keeping is just way too ... (lack of a good word I guess).
 
grantsmb,

Found the answers already myself from your earlier comments:
Asante - born 6th June 1985 (Mamfe x Eva)
Ozala - born 19th March 1994 (Mamfe x Biddy)
Mambie - born 24th March 1991 (Mamfe x Biddy)
Matadi - born 25th March 2003 (Sekondi x Ozala)
Ndoki - born 3rd May 2007 (Sekondi x Ozala)

Leaves proposed breeding options open for discussion and the question by Hadley on why Joe is in isolation.
 
Hadley said:
Why is Joe kept alone? I thought it was because he didn't get on with other gorillas. But Bongo is/was his original companion? Does anyone know why he is not mixed with her?
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Joe lived with Bongo for about twenty years. About mid 1980's, as the young group of Eva, Biddy and Mamfe reached maturity, they decided to run Bongo in the group and the two males, 'Mamfe' and 'Joe' took 'turns' daily in being with the females. Mamfe was probably stressed by this regime. Eventually Joe was isolated permanently. However, he has always been able to see and touch the others through the indoor mesh. They even designed a little window grille to allow for this in the existing house.

Apparently after Mamfe's death, they tried Joe with the females again but he didn't like it. He is virtually senile incidentally. I don't know if they have tried him just with Bongo again. That would probably work okay but not much advantage over the situation as it is really.
 
jelle said:
Mambie born 24/3/1991 current location?
.

In the Twycross females I would advocate that Eva (34), Biddy (34) and Assante (22) are put into a breeding situation a.s.a.p. after reproductive evaluation. The latter as both Eva and Biddy are fairly old to conceive now (but not impossible: a recent stillbirth breeding of a 34-year old at Praha Zoo) and Assante to determine the cause of her not breeding/conceiving with Sekondi (I assume he was the latest breeding male).

Finally, a proven male should be introduced expeditiously to the Twycross troop by the EEP Coordinator. This in order to put gorilla breeding finally on the map here at Twycross. Five births inside 40 years of consistent gorilla keeping is just way too ... (lack of a good word I guess).
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Jelle.

1. Mambie(Biddy's son) is currently the eldest male in the batchelor group at La Boissiere in France. He is an impressive dominant animal and may be soon moving to Valencia in Spain to head a breeding group.

2. Asante has never bred simply because Sekondi grew up with her and never showed interest in mating her. She has had no other partner at Twycross. Her visit to Bristol was unsuccessful but she was a nervous subadult at the tim,e and was not given a long enough time to settle down. I'm pretty certain there is no other problem with her except if lack of breeding has caused her to stop cycling now.

3. They could move her in with SamSam, but it would leave Ozala alone in the other group with only her two babies for company, so that is extremely unlikely. It is very important Asante breeds though.

4. Re Biddy and Eva. There is a possibility Biddy could breed with SAmSam if he's interested, but he too is almost a 'nohoper' in the breeding stakes. I think he has been living with her some of the time recently. But Biddy has a breeding daughter- Ozala, and possibly in future, her son Mambi in Valencia too. Eva is more important- that is, unless her daughter Asante breeds.

5. I have seen the EEP Gorilla recommendations for 2007. Twycross does not feature at all....
 
jelle said:
The latter as both Eva and Biddy are fairly old to conceive now (but not impossible: a recent stillbirth breeding of a 34-year old at Praha Zoo)
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No, its not impossible they could breed again. 'Juju' at Howletts produced her last baby when she was about 42 years old- the difference is she has had a baby every three years through her adult breeding life, about eight or nine in total, all reared by her- what a difference to Twycross.

I am certain that the Twycross future Gorilla scenario will be;

For Joe, SamSam, Biddy, Eva and Bongo.-there will be no changes made. SamSam might just breed with Biddy(or Eva) but its unlikely.

A new male will finally be obtained for Asante and Ozala, once the young 'Ndoki' is a little older- perhaps next year. I've been told they intend keeping 'Ndoki' as she is female....
 
grantsmb said:
Joe lived with Bongo for about twenty years. About mid 1980's, as the young group of Eva, Biddy and Mamfe reached maturity, they decided to run Bongo in the group and the two males, 'Mamfe' and 'Joe' took 'turns' daily in being with the females. Mamfe was probably stressed by this regime. Eventually Joe was isolated permanently. However, he has always been able to see and touch the others through the indoor mesh. They even designed a little window grille to allow for this in the existing house.

Apparently after Mamfe's death, they tried Joe with the females again but he didn't like it. He is virtually senile incidentally. I don't know if they have tried him just with Bongo again. That would probably work okay but not much advantage over the situation as it is really.
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This is a gorilla we are talking about, that's pretty shocking that they just kept them separate. He may be pretty senile now but surely the stimulation of being in the same space as his long-term female companion would be beneficial? I can't believe Bongo, as a post-reproductive animal, was just left in the adjoining group.
 
Yes, its not good but its actually the part of Twycross's Gorilla management that I find least aggravating.(the rest I do:mad:) for this reason; Joe has always been able to see and touch Bongo if they want too, so if she was in the enclosure with him it wouldn't make an awful lot of difference. It may be too that Bongo prefers the group situation, I don't know.

Also, since the arrival of SamSam, the old male from Edinburgh, they have had to juggle them around a bit for the available space. Maybe James Barber can describe how they are currently being kept on a day to day basis?

Joe is a rather pitiful sight nowadays as he often sits completely covered in sacking and bits of sheet- which takes away his dignity, I feel. Still, he's a much loved and well-cared for 'favourite' of course, being one of the very oldest animals in the zoo..
 
grantsmb said:
5. I have seen the EEP Gorilla recommendations for 2007. Twycross does not feature at all....
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I thought you were rather in the know on this. But .. do you have access to that kind of information?

Anyway, I would stress once again the situation with gorillas is highly unsatisfactory. I do see a breeding future for both the older gen (perhaps with the introduction of a more experienced male in the older group if SamSam still fails to do the business), and a separate young grouping around Ozala (female with mother rearing experience), Assante and perhaps a third female from outside.

On the EEP recommendations: one might think they have been handed down before the most recent deaths at Twycross. Still, new candidates for silverback kept in bachelor groups must be around somewhere in Europe? Any ideas?
 
I would choose a young male - age around 8 years - for the Ozala group, and the best candidates seem to be either Mtonge from Gaiapark or the oldest of the young males from La Valle des Singes (born in 1999). Both are genetically important (Mtonge`s father Bongo is over-represented but his wild-born mother had only 2 children and is dead, so she won`t have any more), although the one from La Valle des Singes is a bit better genetically (wildborn mother and a father who is not from an overrepresented line). On the other hand, Mtonge needs a new home more urgently because he made too much trouble in the family in Gaiapark. Both would be a very good choice from the social point of view because both have been raised by their mothers in a large family with younger siblings.

Both are young enough so that they wouldn`t be a danger for the youngest baby but they probably already fertile and could mate sucessfully with Asante now. Bokito in Rotterdam is a good example that in such a situation a young male can be a great sucess.
 
Jelle.

1. EEP information- I have access indirectly via other contacts. However, a number of the 2007 recommendations are only that, and won't actually happen. Some of them are quite unrealistic!

2. I find it odd that Twycross is not mentioned at all.

3. You probably know SamSam is really only still at Twycross by accident. He and Yinka were being housed there temporarily while en route from Edinburgh to a new home in Spain. (From what I've heard, it was a bad plan as I'm pretty sure SamSam's arrival in the next door cage contributed to the resident male Mamfe's sudden death.) Yinka died in January, and as they're lacking a male, Twycross requested if they could keep SamSam. Again nothing is mentioned in the EEP data.

4. SamSam obviously mated Yinka at Edinburgh- to produce Sekondi- but they never bred again. So he is doubtful for further breeding.

5. Twycross say they are happy with SAmSAm as he's similar aged to the older females(Eva ,Biddy .Bongo) and so potentially will get on with them. I don't think they hope for any breeding though. Its this fatalistic attitude which has always been the problem, I think.

6. For the younger group- Asante, Ozala and the two babies, something will happen as they will need a new male. So I would hope an unrelated but RELIABLE male is brought in for breeding. He should have good genetics and most importantly, be mother-raised. To safeguard the babies he can't be too old, as you've mentioned before. There are plenty of males in this category in Europe, though quite a few are distantly related to Ozala and Asante- who both carry the famous Jersey genes through their father Mamfe.
 
Yassa said:
I would choose a young male - age around 8 years - for the Ozala group, and the best candidates seem to be either Mtonge from Gaiapark or the oldest of the young males from La Valle des Singes (born in 1999). /QUOTE]

I don't think Mtonge would be a good choice- as you said, he made trouble in the family group and had to be seperated. So he could be risky in a group with two young in it and start to bully..

The male at Vallee de Singes sounds good- Badongo, born 27.09 99. He is better genetically too.

I'm pretty sure Twycross will wait until the new baby is older and stronger before they dare risk adding a new male though.
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i have to say guys and this runs through most of the threads your intimate knowledge on gorilla groups and elephant groups in europe is staggering, this is a real education for me and you are all to be applauded, kudos to you all.
 
kiang said:
i have to say guys and this runs through most of the threads your intimate knowledge on gorilla groups and elephant groups in europe is staggering, this is a real education for me and you are all to be applauded, kudos to you all.
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I can't say I know an awful lot about the elephant groups- for me its the Gorillas...:)
 
We should keep this for news on the Twycross elephant dilemma. (My fault, I went into the Gorillas again...) Any news on the Gorillas I'll put in e.g. UK gorilla update..:)
 
Ok, back to elephants. Here's more evidence that Twycross have no plans to give up their elephants - a job advert for an elephant keeper from the BIAZA website. Interestingly, it does mention that the elephants are being "trained for AI".

BIAZA Jobs and Careers

I also spotted that Chester are advertising for an elephant keeper.
 
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