Twycross Zoo Twycross Zoo News 2011 #2

[IanRRobinson]

Playing devil's advocate. and flying in the face of the claim to be a "World Primate Centre" (not that I've ever noticed mouse lemurs, galagoes, lorises, tarsiers, baooons, macaques or mangabeys on site) do other posters think that there MAY be an argument for temporarily going out of gorillas?

They have never really done well, IMO. Their departure would greatly ease the pressure on space as far as the chimps are concerned, which is the most obvious shortcoming onsite.

 

[Javan Rhino]

Playing devil's advocate. and flying in the face of the claim to be a "World Primate Centre" (not that I've ever noticed mouse lemurs, galagoes, lorises, tarsiers, baooons, macaques or mangabeys on site) do other posters think that there MAY be an argument for temporarily going out of gorillas?

They have never really done well, IMO. Their departure would greatly ease the pressure on space as far as the chimps are concerned, which is the most obvious shortcoming onsite.

I think I'd prefer they just go out of the chimps and stick with gorillas, fair play they haven't been doing as well as they could, but a lot of space would still be freed up to make a good enclosure and a good group.

The reason I make that choice is in part my bit of dislike for chimps, but also because from a financial point of view the average visitor would miss gorillas at Twycross, but the bonobos are similar enough (and more interesting) for them not to be missed as much. They still retain a species from all ape genus' then as well (apart from Hoolock, and lets face it that ain't gonna happen )

 

[Maguari]

(not that I've ever noticed mouse lemurs, galagoes, lorises, tarsiers, baooons, macaques or mangabeys on site)

No capuchins these days, either, which is odd. Tarsiers are obviously not likely to be forthcoming, but all the others could be got hold of pretty easily if they wished.

 

[OrangePerson]

The reason I make that choice is in part my bit of dislike for chimps, but also because from a financial point of view the average visitor would miss gorillas at Twycross, but the bonobos are similar enough (and more interesting) for them not to be missed as much.

And what do you propose to do with the large number of chimps bred by Twycross, who have spent years in less than favourable conditions? Just kill them all maybe? After all they're only zoo animals, ones that you don't particularly like! Twycross have a duty of care to the chimps that they knowingly bred. Unless it makes financial sense to pay a sanctuary to take them and care for them for the next 30 - 40 years. Maybe the Wales place could expand.

 

[Javan Rhino]

And what do you propose to do with the large number of chimps bred by Twycross, who have spent years in less than favourable conditions? Just kill them all maybe? After all they're only zoo animals, ones that you don't particularly like! Twycross have a duty of care to the chimps that they knowingly bred. Unless it makes financial sense to pay a sanctuary to take them and care for them for the next 30 - 40 years. Maybe the Wales place could expand.

Of course I wouldn't have them culled (don't know where that idea came from to be honest )

I'll have to admit I don't know a great deal, but in my mind there would be two options if they were to go out of them:

1) Disperse them around other zoos that keep chimpanzees Europe/world-wide (there are plenty) and try and integrate them into different groups. There are a few reasons it may not be ideal (is it common practice for chimp enclosures to have areas where they can hold chimps whilst being integrated into their main group?)

2) Option 2, and in my opinion the better option, is to send them out in family groups to zoos that are looking to go into this species and could get an enclosure built. Yorkshire Wildlife Park have mentioned apes in the past, that could be a good example.

Of course there may not be any zoos with a wish to have them, and if no other homes can be found then Twycross they would have no choice in the matter and would have to keep them.

Just because I'm not particularly fond of a species, it doesn't mean I think the zoo should cull them

 

[karoocheetah]

1) Disperse them around other zoos that keep chimpanzees Europe/world-wide (there are plenty) and try and integrate them into different groups. There are a few reasons it may not be ideal (is it common practice for chimp enclosures to have areas where they can hold chimps whilst being integrated into their main group?)

2) Option 2, and in my opinion the better option, is to send them out in family groups to zoos that are looking to go into this species and could get an enclosure built. Yorkshire Wildlife Park have mentioned apes in the past, that could be a good example.


Both of these ideas present huge problems with Chimps, you can't just tear them away from their social group and plonk them in another zoo - how would you like it if you were taken from your family, shipped maybe 100's of miles away and plonked into an existing family group? The rescue centres that do this spend loads of time and effort making sure both sides of the new grouping are OK and integrating well.
Even moving an exisiting group lock stock and barrel isn't easy - change is not taken particularly well in the human world so why would the rest of the great apes be any different and their understanding of the need for change is zero as we have no way of communicating that to them.

Agree with Orange Person here 100% ANY zoo has a duty of care to it's animals and with something like the apes that have a lifespan similar to humans that's a long time commitment, so just deciding to come out of the species overnight as it's not financially viable isn't a very responsible attitude. Well that decision can be taken quickly enough but in practice a responsible zoo may take years down sizing or rehoming with all of the responsibility that entails.

I still believe that Twycross will try to do the best they can for all of their apes but if they have finite funding then they need to prioritise and hopefully that's what they have done.

 

[Yassa]

Javan Rhino, you really don`t know anything about the situation of chimpanzees in zoos, or otherwise you`d know that none of your ideas is possible. Placing 20+ chimps in good zoos is impossible unless you make a deal with a sanctuary and send the funds to build the big facility needed. It is already difficult and may take YEARS to find suitable places for single individuals, even if they are of KNOWN subspecies. Maybe, with a lot of luck and time, it might be possible to place one of the Twycross groups in another zoo. But all of them - totally impossible. One of the reasons for that is that most zoo people seem to prefer gorillas....

It would indeed make a lot more sense to send the gorillas elsewhere and concentrate the resources at Twycross on the chimps. Finding a home for the breeding group of gorillas shouldn`t be a problem.

 

[IanRRobinson]

Frankly, the reason I suggested gorillas as a Twycross "phase-out" species in the medium term was precisely because I suspect that getting good homes for two dozen odd chimps of uncertain parentage would be a pretty forlorn exercise.

The only other species of great ape held at Twycross that I'd imagine would be quickly re-homed would be the bonobos, and for Twycross to send their crown jewels away from the collection would be bonkers.

 

[Javan Rhino]

Obviously Twycross won't be going out of chimps, but I always imagined there would be zoos that would love the chance to get a group of chimpanzees what with them being an ABC species (though like you say, people seem to prefer gorillas).

I don't know much about it, because like I say Chimps don't do it for me as a person, but I would have thought that there would be zoos that want to go into a group of chimps and think it'd be better to get an already-formed group than individuals that they will later have to integrate.

I'm aware it would be a painfully slow and difficult process and that if it were to happen, plans and the execution of them would have to be absolutely spot on.

It is interesting due to the group dynamics and intelligence of the species, but it does pose the question, if a zoo were forced to go out of chimpanzees (closure or whatever other reason) and they had a large group, how would they go about it then?

 

[Pertinax]

but I always imagined there would be zoos that would love the chance to get a group of chimpanzees what with them being an ABC species

if a zoo were forced to go out of chimpanzees (closure or whatever other reason) and they had a large group, how would they go about it then?

1. Few Zoos that don't already have Chimps are actively looking for them. Very strong and expensive housing is needed for what are arguably the most dangerous species in a Zoo, both of which are major drawbacks for zoos looking to take on new species.

2. Most probably Euthanasia- if it could be done without being made public -which is almost impossible, or housing in a specialist Chimpanzee sanctuary IF there was space. So a very difficult thing to organise.

3. Occassionally groups do get moved between Zoos e.g. most of London's were transferred to Dudley, and more recently Edinburgh's group was doubled in size by a transfer from Holland, but such movements are pretty rare and the result of longterm planning.

 

[IanRRobinson]

1. Few Zoos that don't already have Chimps are actively looking for them. Very strong and expensive housing is needed for what are arguably the most dangerous species in a Zoo, both of which are major drawbacks for zoos looking to take on new species.

2. Most probably Euthanasia- if it could be done without being made public -which is almost impossible, or housing in a specialist Chimpanzee sanctuary IF there was space. So a very difficult thing to organise.

3. Occasionally groups do get moved between Zoos e.g. most of London's were transferred to Dudley, and more recently Edinburgh's group was doubled in size by a transfer from Holland, but such movements are pretty rare and the result of long term planning.

And the history of ZSL chimps in the past 20 years is not a happy one. Moving chimp groups around is very expensive and hugely problematic. My guess is that only elephants can present so many headaches.

 

[Javan Rhino]

1. Few Zoos that don't already have Chimps are actively looking for them. Very strong and expensive housing is needed for what are arguably the most dangerous species in a Zoo, both of which are major drawbacks for zoos looking to take on new species.

2. Most probably Euthanasia- if it could be done without being made public -which is almost impossible, or housing in a specialist Chimpanzee sanctuary IF there was space. So a very difficult thing to organise.

3. Occassionally groups do get moved between Zoos e.g. most of London's were transferred to Dudley, and more recently Edinburgh's group was doubled in size by a transfer from Holland, but such movements are pretty rare and the result of longterm planning.

Ahhh, kk - thanks for the info

Like I say, I didn't realise there were so few places looking for them, I knew they were expensive to house but I always imagined many zoos would find it worth the investment in the long term.

Sorry if I caused any problems :s I hope you all understand that I don't dislike them enough to want them culled

 

[SMR]

...how would you like it if you were taken from your family, shipped maybe 100's of miles away and plonked into an existing family group?

If one was being shipped from a shoebox in the Bronx to an estate in Hawaii, it'd soften the blow a great deal.

In the case of Twycross, do people see the main problem being the disjointed social groups, the indoor housing or the lack of decent outdoor enclosures? If it's the latter, the chimps around Norton Grange are surrounded by either empty space or "disposable" exhibits, such as the penguins and meerkats. Surely it would be more cost-effective to start by building large, moated islands in those areas?

 

[Yassa]

"I knew they were expensive to house but I always imagined many zoos would find it worth the investment in the long term."

Zoos find it more worth to invest into gorillas or bonobos, and if they build for chimps, it usually done to improve housing for their existing animals.
It happens very rarely that a zoo wants/needs a whole new group of great apes, regardless the species. Most zoos that now house great apes already housed great apes 20 years ago, and have upgraded their facilities by enlarging the facilities and redcing the number of animals, which is usually done by concentrating on 1 or 2 species. Those that usually have to go are the chimps. The few zoos that build new facilities for new groups not already present in the zoo usually opt for gorillas (most popular) or orang utans.

 

[IanRRobinson]

There's the additional problem with chimps that most animals in Europe are of unknown origin. Really, the aim has to be to concentrate on apes of proven subspecific origin - which I think will be P.t.verus

Rather like turning round a huge oil tanker, this is going to take a long time - maybe 30 years. And that's assuming that all zoos co-operate - which is a pretty big assumption.

 

[Pertinax]

I believe it may have something to do with the silverbacks stressing each other out (though I can only imagine there's better (i.e. cheaper, quicker, less-convoluted) ways of dealing with this issue.

There would be one easy way out of this- return Boulas, who is almost certainly infertile(and Oumbie's full brother anyway) to Port Lympne where he originated from, before he went to Belfast.

That would allow Twycross to have a single group of 1.3 (+1). No need to move them to another house and leaves one whole house free/empty for other animals.

Only problem- Port Lympne probably don't want him back and/or have no room.

But until things become clearer exactly what the intentions regarding Chimps and Gorillas are at Twycross, this is all very much in the realm of speculation.

 

[Pertinax]

That's the way it happened at Bristol who used to have all three Great Apes(not Bonobos). First the Chimpanzees went, then later the Orangutans so now they only have Gorillas. London relinquished Orangutans first, then Chimps so now they too only have Gorillas.
Paignton used to have Chimps, now they have Orangs and Gorillas.
Jersey had Chimps, both Orangutan species and Gorillas, now only Sumatran Orangutan and Gorilla.
Blackpool had all three species- no longer(?) Chimps.

Chester went the other way and lost only their Gorillas, but that was due to poor pairings where the only realistic option was to relocate single animals to other zoos to try and promote breeding.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

That's the way it happened at Bristol who used to have all three Great Apes(not Bonobos). First the Chimpanzees went, then later the Orangutans so now they only have Gorillas. London relinquished Orangutans first, then Chimps so now they too only have Gorillas.
Paignton used to have Chimps, now they have Orangs and Gorillas.
Jersey had Chimps, both Orangutan species and Gorillas, now only Sumatran Orangutan and Gorilla.
Blackpool had all three species- no longer(?) Chimps.

Chester went the other way and lost only their Gorillas, but that was due to poor pairings where the only realistic option was to relocate single animals to other zoos to try and promote breeding.

On a related note, is there any particular reason that Twycross remain the only zoo to hold Bonobos in the UK?

 

[Pertinax]

On a related note, is there any particular reason that Twycross remain the only zoo to hold Bonobos in the UK?

I think it would be perfectly possible for other UK zoos to approach the EEP as prospective holders of Bonobos if they were able to show evidence of suitable or planned accomodation, as Twycross must have done originally. One or two other UK zoos have been mentioned before in relation to Bonobos, but nothing happened.

 

[OrangePerson]

I'd love to see bonobos living in something that didn't remind me of public toilets, hopefully one day that might be at Twycross, they're slightly disconcerting animals and the setting really doesn't help.