Does anyone know which is now more likely to happen first- new Chimpanzee area or the new Lion/Dhole area that was apparently put on hold?
Twycross Zoo Twycross Zoo news 2012 #2
- Thread starter adrian1963
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Does anyone know which is now more likely to happen first- new Chimpanzee area or the new Lion/Dhole area that was apparently put on hold?
Forgive me for thinking negative here, but personally I do not think there will be any new Chimp Choices/Molly Badham Primate centre at least for the next few years given this zoo's present financial situation. I think once all the chimps have been relocated to the old gorilla house, Joe's gorilla house and the chimp complex that will be it, and in the future when the chimps pass on and numbers reduce they will concentrate on one colony of chimps only, housed in one of these buildings, possibly Joe's house, it being the newest. As for the new carnivore enclosure, how long has this been talked about, five, six years?, perhaps this will materialise when the gentleman at the top of the column in Trafalgar Square gets his eye back, but please note it would give me the greatest of pleasure to be proved wrong on both counts.
I think what you lay out here, running the chimps down to a more manageable number, by natural attrition, is perhaps a realistic picture. On the other hand, the Carnivore enclosures did actually reach the 'artist's impression' stage so I am presuming they will still actually get them built at some stage, or am I barking up the wrong tree(or ape climbing frame
) here? Though it could still be years off perhaps?I could certainly see your scenario of the existing 'three houses' for the Chimps becoming semi-permanent as the heat will then be off them to provide 'suitable' housing for all their chimps, but without the need to try and form one large group at huge cost(and trouble) in a new enclosure.
What I haven't yet gauged is just how strong the intention to do that new Chimpanzee build really is, or how soon- or is it still just 'talk'.
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Rather than trying to fix and unfixable issue, TZ should concentrate on trying to put forward a coherent policy and collection plan in branding itself the World Primate Zoo. For a fact, I really do not think either of the most talked about great apes - chimps or gorillas - are the prime candidates for a total make-over. Rather I would like to see the collection develop its primate appeal for all primates and take down the old skool primate houses they have been running since its inception.
Beside, I would like to see them follow through on broken promises with Asian Carnivores and really making the Asiatic elephant House work. If they continue the way as before they risk another animal management failure with elephants and (rightfully) a downgrading by EEP as being unfit to maintain a breeding herd of Asiatic elephant. All that going back to the ill-considered refusal not to keep a bull whereas the EEP recommendation is breeding herd with and if not or unless elderly non reproductive animals or young bulls. Given they have gone to great lenghts to create some sort of immersion and interpretation of South Asia ... (which at the moment seems hardly noted by an indifferent local zoo visiting public) and make it work and put the Asiatic elephant herd out to grass and not just the sandy area.
Asian carnivores being much talked about ... would certainly create more interest in a rather run-down run of the mill part of TZ. It would also more deservedly put TZ's association with Asian lions and bringing in several other interesting Asian carnivores within the collection. If they further follow through with creating say a lion-tailed macaque group and hanuman langur group close by ... that would really set things in motion.
Now for a fact, they have invested in an entrance complex with an out of place snow leopard exhibit only visible from toilet arena and some of the indoor restaurant and a wetland area that with an Borneo Dayak house and haphazard presentation of species not even from that region a rather puzzled atmosphere to the place. Really that is down to how you present your collection and underlines a lack of direction and sound vision on the part of current zoo management. And its management has chased off everyone that ever wished to really assist with development of the World Primate Zoo branding.
Now that latter branding has been way better developed by places like Apenheul, Vallee des Singes, Singapore Zoo and - even - a place in central Jawa makes for a better exhibitry of its primate collection and resultant breeding success. At TZ sadly we continue to see a huge backlog to catch up with and numerous candidates for home and husbandry improvement (the latter is in no part criticism on the keeper staff that IMO are doing a brilliant job despite what is happening higher up the chain, rather it underlines the need to completely overhaul current primate husbandry concepts with new primate exhibits to meet those challenges). The present really looks rather artificial and unnatural. And is that the image TZ wants to present to a wider audience? I beg to differ there ... and really really really hoping for better times ahead.
My, you're on fine form today!, Yes there is a large list of things to improve upon at Twycross, I would say the longest list of "things to do" of any major U.K. zoo, but remember, where is all the money going to come from?, as we know Miss Badham and Miss Evans left that zoo in a very sound financial state when they retired as directors in 2003, plenty of money for the new management with a new outlook on things to spend on new animal houses. Also, remember no matter how knowledgeable we are, or how much we care for Twycross's future, this is all irrelevant as all decisions regarding the future well being of this zoo are made in the palatial offices of Norton Grange by its directors, that is the fact of the matter, talk about having a conscience.
mazfc
Well-Known Member
As as a regular visitor I'm happy to accept that twycross has many faults and much room for development, but I really feel that current problems should be rectified before any further new developments are undertaken.
I don't normally get involved in these arguments as they tend to go found in circles to no purpose, but I feel the need to state my position.
For me the number one priority is sorting out the chimps. ( I know I'm a great ape fan but I don't think I'm alone in this).
I'd also love to see something done with the giraffe area.
I see no problem with the elephant enclosure at all. In The past 2 months I've seen the elephants on the grass paddock on at least 60% of my visits. A bull pen would be great, but I think the whole set up would need to be reviewed (ie pc v fc) and it really shouldn't be a priority at the present time.
I personally love the Himalaya building, and as it was funded through a grant is of no impact on the other developments in the zoo. Any one who can only see the snow leopards from the loo is probably peeing in the wrong place (
) as only the ants and the aviary (not an well stocked area I agree) is visible from there. The snow leopards are viewed from the restaurant and from a viewing window in the zoo as well.
I would love to see Kuno developed but nothing seems to be happening apart from adverts all over the place.
Overall I do see improvements every time I go, and hope the major stuff gets done pretty soon. The chimp group recently move to Joes house seemed very happy and settled and finally seemed to be a cohesive group rather than individuals put together.
I don't normally get involved in these arguments as they tend to go found in circles to no purpose, but I feel the need to state my position.
For me the number one priority is sorting out the chimps. ( I know I'm a great ape fan but I don't think I'm alone in this).
I'd also love to see something done with the giraffe area.
I see no problem with the elephant enclosure at all. In The past 2 months I've seen the elephants on the grass paddock on at least 60% of my visits. A bull pen would be great, but I think the whole set up would need to be reviewed (ie pc v fc) and it really shouldn't be a priority at the present time.
I personally love the Himalaya building, and as it was funded through a grant is of no impact on the other developments in the zoo. Any one who can only see the snow leopards from the loo is probably peeing in the wrong place (
) as only the ants and the aviary (not an well stocked area I agree) is visible from there. The snow leopards are viewed from the restaurant and from a viewing window in the zoo as well. I would love to see Kuno developed but nothing seems to be happening apart from adverts all over the place.
Overall I do see improvements every time I go, and hope the major stuff gets done pretty soon. The chimp group recently move to Joes house seemed very happy and settled and finally seemed to be a cohesive group rather than individuals put together.
Do you have your finger on the pulse of the local zoo goers?
Any one who can only see the snow leopards from the loo is probably peeing in the wrong place (
Well at least we can point them in the direction of the culprit(s)!Totally agree with this. Whilst we're all keen to seen new exhibits and new species I think it'd be morally/ethically wrong to do so before pretty much all the current problems are rectified. I realise there's a counter-argument that new exhibits/species bring in more visitors and money which would enable the older exhibits to be upgraded, or better still scrapped and rebuilt, but I'd argue the time scale for this to happen is too long (those monkey/gibbon exhibits look poor now, how are they going to look in five years time) and the fortunes spent on a spectacular exhibit for one or a handful of species could build some basic looking, but improved and highly functional exhibits (see Colchester or Howletts newer open-topped enclosures for instance) for many species. Wow, that was a long sentence, hope it's comprehensible.
I'm fairly sure it was only part grant funded which means all the non-grant money could have been utilised for other purposes
Agreed that this is good, but surely that can't be seen as anything other than a short-term solution (if you're talking Joe's most recent home). I struggle to think of many worse Chimp enclosures in the UK -there's hardly any outdoor climbing potential.
Finally has anyone seen the cost of adult entrance lately (I know a lot of us are on memberships or reciprocals)? -£16.50! (not forgetting the £1 for under threes, the only UK zoo to do so as far as I know). I'm sure that's almost doubled in the last five or six years (though I do think it was too low then) -they're very lucky there's no serious competitors nearby.
As as a regular visitor I'm happy to accept that twycross has many faults and much room for development, but I really feel that current problems should be rectified before any further new developments are undertaken.
I don't normally get involved in these arguments as they tend to go found in circles to no purpose, but I feel the need to state my position.
For me the number one priority is sorting out the chimps. ( I know I'm a great ape fan but I don't think I'm alone in this).
I'd also love to see something done with the giraffe area.
I see no problem with the elephant enclosure at all. In The past 2 months I've seen the elephants on the grass paddock on at least 60% of my visits. A bull pen would be great, but I think the whole set up would need to be reviewed (ie pc v fc) and it really shouldn't be a priority at the present time.
I personally love the Himalaya building, and as it was funded through a grant is of no impact on the other developments in the zoo. Any one who can only see the snow leopards from the loo is probably peeing in the wrong place (
I would love to see Kuno developed but nothing seems to be happening apart from adverts all over the place.
Overall I do see improvements every time I go, and hope the major stuff gets done pretty soon. The chimp group recently move to Joes house seemed very happy and settled and finally seemed to be a cohesive group rather than individuals put together.
@mazfc, I suppose on most discussed between us, if not all we are in various degrees of and/or absolute agreement here. There is no harm though in having several lines of thought over TZ. Even .. admittedly it has been talked of previously.
On the summation loo (taking the piss are you?
), I must admit - having to cite from memory over my TZ visit - that in all due respect that was the aviary complex ...! Yet, I personally do feel that the snow leopard area within the entrance complex should not have been built there in the first place, rather I would have liked to have seen some or a high profile primate species in that particular location as an eye catcher for zoo visitors. All I am saying really.As to the stuff I mentioned on theming that is what I would like to see happen in the medium term ... I as you am acutely aware of the current financial state of affairs at TZ which is not exactly rosy to put it mildly.
Finally, getting back till present: the entire great ape complex seemed to me lost in and on the landscape and after row upon row of cage (for lack of better word to describe them) what particular great ape species was in them. Also, the very fact that most great apes tended to be housed individually and or in small haphazard associations seemed not a good one. That something had to give at some point very soon, yes.
BTW: is the honourable John Paul Houston on staff at all?
(his name appeared on the 2010 AR under Staff Activities, yet curiously I could not discern his name listed in the current members of staff listing)
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
The idea of being a 'world primate centre', is really the noose around the neck, as all they really have are numbers. The saddest thing is, had they not branded themselves according to their declining primate collection (at exactly a time where they should have thrown themselves into a new identity matching the diversification of exhibits and species), they would have been able to massively scale down the numbers of primate species to concentrate on fewer.
Lets not pretend that it costs much, relatively speaking, to hotwire a large area and put in climbing structures. The issue is the sheer amount of separate groups of primates make this an improbable task.
Twycross is not a woodland, or even parkland zoo. Some trees have grown up on the site, but its still very open, and not particularly conducive to forest-dwelling, arboreal mammals.
If indeed it wants to be a 'world' primate centre, then it needs to accept there are low-cost ways to achieve this status. A tropical house that should have titi or saki monkeys, tamarins and marmosets in an immersion exhibit. Most, if not all, callitrichids round the rest of the zoo should be given free-roaming access to groups of nearby trees or bushes. With the apes - Chester's chimp islands were no different from those at Twycross - before Chester installed the telegraph poles and planted a shrub understorey - its not lack of money that keeps that perfect green turf lining the floors of the outdoor ape exhibits at Twycross - its a lack of vision.
Many of the monkey enclosures are fine, or would be if furnished properly, but they look dated, why not make some of these blocks an 'off-show breeding centre', which would do much to further the perception of twycross as a world-class institution for primates. Maybe some of those more difficult Guenons will start to breed if there aren't constant visitors tapping on glass windows into their day and night quarters. The public don't need to see all those monkeys, in repeated units, just a few, really functional, really socially-cohesive, multi-generational, breeding groups in large, complex environments, would do as much to hold the attention of the visiting public. OK, so people on here might seeing so many species, and so many unusual ones, but wouldn't it be better to know there were serious attempts off-exhibit to breed some of the trickier species?
Its this typical syndrome of needing every new enclosure to be a marketing dream, some magnificent immersion-style experience, which leaves Twycross so stuck IMO, to the extent that more basic improvements are overlooked, despite the accumalative effect of these creating such improvements that they arguably can generate more money on return visits given the much lower cost of implementing them.
Lets not pretend that it costs much, relatively speaking, to hotwire a large area and put in climbing structures. The issue is the sheer amount of separate groups of primates make this an improbable task.
Twycross is not a woodland, or even parkland zoo. Some trees have grown up on the site, but its still very open, and not particularly conducive to forest-dwelling, arboreal mammals.
If indeed it wants to be a 'world' primate centre, then it needs to accept there are low-cost ways to achieve this status. A tropical house that should have titi or saki monkeys, tamarins and marmosets in an immersion exhibit. Most, if not all, callitrichids round the rest of the zoo should be given free-roaming access to groups of nearby trees or bushes. With the apes - Chester's chimp islands were no different from those at Twycross - before Chester installed the telegraph poles and planted a shrub understorey - its not lack of money that keeps that perfect green turf lining the floors of the outdoor ape exhibits at Twycross - its a lack of vision.
Many of the monkey enclosures are fine, or would be if furnished properly, but they look dated, why not make some of these blocks an 'off-show breeding centre', which would do much to further the perception of twycross as a world-class institution for primates. Maybe some of those more difficult Guenons will start to breed if there aren't constant visitors tapping on glass windows into their day and night quarters. The public don't need to see all those monkeys, in repeated units, just a few, really functional, really socially-cohesive, multi-generational, breeding groups in large, complex environments, would do as much to hold the attention of the visiting public. OK, so people on here might seeing so many species, and so many unusual ones, but wouldn't it be better to know there were serious attempts off-exhibit to breed some of the trickier species?
Its this typical syndrome of needing every new enclosure to be a marketing dream, some magnificent immersion-style experience, which leaves Twycross so stuck IMO, to the extent that more basic improvements are overlooked, despite the accumalative effect of these creating such improvements that they arguably can generate more money on return visits given the much lower cost of implementing them.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why the entrance complex had to be branded as Himalayan. It could just as easily been Amazonian, with a mixed primate exhibit on view. That might have rehoused (say) the red-faced spider monkeys, together with black howlers, white-faced sakis and two or three species of callitrichid. Or a Malagasy theme could have been chosen with various lemurs.
Either would have been more relevant to the branding of what is still a very sizeable collection of primates.
As an aside: sorry, mazfc, but that elephant setup is a problem. It is wasting the breeding potential of the cows at Twycross for them not to be kept with a bull onsite.
Either would have been more relevant to the branding of what is still a very sizeable collection of primates.
As an aside: sorry, mazfc, but that elephant setup is a problem. It is wasting the breeding potential of the cows at Twycross for them not to be kept with a bull onsite.
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
As I understood it, the bid for funding for the entrance complex had to take in cultural values of some of the local populations, I realise this is a loose connection but I had therefore always assumed this to be the relevance of a Himalayan theme, that there was a move to acknowledge a large South Asian demographic in their visitor numbers.
mazfc
Well-Known Member
I think the snow leopards have a greater impact on visitors than putting in small primates would (this is from a big primate fan too). The snow leopards really seem to have captured visitors imagination and they seem well loved (helped no doubt by the cubs).
We will have to agree to disagree about the elephants Ian
I just think money can be better spent on areas that need it more first.I agree that the current 'new' chimp outdoor area is not adequate but hopefully it won't be for too long (I know I'm hoping and hoping but I still have faith in twycross) but the indoor is good, certainly matching Monkeyworld and Chester. It's got a variety of levels and textures too.
Please don't think I'm trying to defend the indefensible. As I say I still have faith in the future. The keepers there are doing a great job with limited means and want to see the zoo progress.
KB - sorry I've no idea who the man you mentioned is. I can name the great apes but not the humans
zoogiraffe
Well-Known Member
@ Kifaru Bwana JP is no longer at Twycross,will fill you in on his where abouts,and how he is getting on when you are next over at mine!
Do the Chimps in that house have access to both sides indoors, or only one side until the Gorillas leave?
Any photos of the changes indoors/outdoors or the Chimps in here would be welcome too.
If they really do build a new chimpanzee complex, it will leave three redundant brick ape houses which they could then demolish!
Twycross Guenons.
As usual, Johnstoni's summation hits many nails on the head.
What they could do at minimal cost is take out some of the divisions in the blocks of Monkey cages, leaving one large cage on each side of the house giving the inhabitants far more space inside and out,- and more security and peace too without 'neighbours'. Get rid of, or take offshow, the geriatric/non-breeders. I would close the indoor houses to the public also. If the remaining 'breeding' groups then increased they would become more visible outside anyway- the larger the group, the more active they are.
Regarding the Guenons in particular, I would divide them as follows into those with potential for breeding and those without;
Potential- L'Hoests(new/young animals)
De Brazza (new/young animals, already breeding)
Lowe's- ? (several, not too old?)
No potential- Allen's Swamp Monkey( females have problems, one is sterile).
Diana/Roloways- (too old?)
Monas- (too old?)
Crowned.- (singleton).
Maybe these latter or some of them could be candidates for the IOW sanctuary where they have already sent the Red-tailed Guenon. I can't remember if I have left out any other guenon species they still have.
That would reduce the number of Guenon species by half if they kept only those they have any hope of breeding from.
As usual, Johnstoni's summation hits many nails on the head.
What they could do at minimal cost is take out some of the divisions in the blocks of Monkey cages, leaving one large cage on each side of the house giving the inhabitants far more space inside and out,- and more security and peace too without 'neighbours'. Get rid of, or take offshow, the geriatric/non-breeders. I would close the indoor houses to the public also. If the remaining 'breeding' groups then increased they would become more visible outside anyway- the larger the group, the more active they are.
Regarding the Guenons in particular, I would divide them as follows into those with potential for breeding and those without;
Potential- L'Hoests(new/young animals)
De Brazza (new/young animals, already breeding)
Lowe's- ? (several, not too old?)
No potential- Allen's Swamp Monkey( females have problems, one is sterile).
Diana/Roloways- (too old?)
Monas- (too old?)
Crowned.- (singleton).
Maybe these latter or some of them could be candidates for the IOW sanctuary where they have already sent the Red-tailed Guenon. I can't remember if I have left out any other guenon species they still have.
That would reduce the number of Guenon species by half if they kept only those they have any hope of breeding from.
mazfc
Well-Known Member
Do the Chimps in that house have access to both sides indoors, or only one side until the Gorillas leave?
Any photos of the changes indoors/outdoors or the Chimps in here would be welcome too.
If they really do build a new chimpanzee complex, it will leave three redundant brick ape houses which they could then demolish!
They only have one side at the moment. It hopefully that will change when the gorillas move. It's. It an ideal outside but I really like the inside. I have some indoor pics but I wont be able to upload them till the weekend
My thoughts exactly. I would however look to have some of the primates relocated to collections where they would have some means to breed or be amalgamated into functional social groups. Dianas and Roloways are held elsewhere f.i.
Same goes for gibbons and other leaf-eating monkeys.
Also, the wire mesh over and above does my head in. Most enclosures are stale and being rectangular and wide and rather on the claustrophobic small it would make sense to recreate several into one. Also their haphazard
location(s) make it confusing to even keep track. I would also certainly do away with the indoor visible to the general public. It is a source of stress for all primates.
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
I think it is wise to view the living spaces as more than the volume, interior and boundaries of the enclosures. I don't think cages are a bad idea for primates, especially in the absence of a real canopy, but I would want to know the decibel levels, incidents of glass tapping by visitors, maximum distances individual monkeys can retreat from the public etc, to establish what else might be going on. It would please me greatly to know they were persevering with, say, roloway monkeys, but that they were off-exhibit and their stress levels and certain behaviours including interest in mating were being studied or at the very least, monitored and husbandry changes implemented accordingly. While this is likely to already be happening, again I would say the elephant in the room is that public (as in, close proximity) exhibition at a fairly high-footfall public zoo is not conducive to breeding many species. I think primates exhibit stress or boredom-associated behaviours in ways that the public generally interpret as natural, 'monkey-like' behaviour, as opposed to equivalent behaviours in, say, giraffes or cats, so primates get a raw deal in terms of how exposed they often are to the public.
Certainly I would like to see the gibbon, langur, and colobus houses made into an offshow area, even if visible at a distance by the public in the way many offshow enclosures are/were at Howletts.
Certainly I would like to see the gibbon, langur, and colobus houses made into an offshow area, even if visible at a distance by the public in the way many offshow enclosures are/were at Howletts.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
Twycross's indoor facilities certainly don't do the animals any favours, and I feel sure that most would benefit from more privacy.
However, there is then the unfortunate issue that. as designed (or not!), the site is horribly short of cover for its human visitors. It's a pity that tropical house is so small -an indoor facility that could keep people interested for an hour or so would make the place so much more appealing.
And the great ape house exteriors would have the scope to be infinitely better if they were roofed over, IMHO.
However, there is then the unfortunate issue that. as designed (or not!), the site is horribly short of cover for its human visitors. It's a pity that tropical house is so small -an indoor facility that could keep people interested for an hour or so would make the place so much more appealing.
Most, if not all, would be hugely improved if they were simply taller. I agree with johnstoni - in a site lacking trees and water, caging is a necessity for primates.
And the great ape house exteriors would have the scope to be infinitely better if they were roofed over, IMHO.