Is there an announcement about this by the zoo itself? I 've seen it on BBC news but not from the zoo. Anyway, hopefully it means Tommy can now go in with all the rest. The comment about adding females is hopeful too- maybe it will actually happen now as adding some breeding age Western females has been talked about for some years but with no action.
Twycross Zoo Twycross Zoo News 2024
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Is there an announcement about this by the zoo itself? I 've seen it on BBC news but not from the zoo. Anyway, hopefully it means Tommy can now go in with all the rest. The comment about adding females is hopeful too- maybe it will actually happen now as adding some breeding age Western females has been talked about for some years but with no action.
Lafone
Well-Known Member
I think as the interview subject is the ape team leader and there are pictures on the story it would be the zoo announcing it, albeit for some publicity.
Peter the chimp leaves Twycross Zoo for new life in Scotland
Will be interesting to see if they introduce females for breeding and try and build the group again.
Pandaboi
Well-Known Member
Although the BBC say it’s 12 they now have 9 as Coco and Holly have died.
Flynn (1986)
Josie (1988)
Jambo (1982)
Jomar (1990)
Kibali (2014)
Sam (1980)
Tuli (2007)
Tommy (1995)
Victoria (1990)
Only Kibali and Josie are pure West African the rest (except Sam) and hybrids. I believe Sam is an eastern chimpanzee.
The oldest Samantha (Sam) and the second oldest is Jambo who is the current dominant male who is being challenged over dominance by Kibali .
Rajang-GOAT
Well-Known Member
Was Kibali really born in 2014 or is that when he arrived at Twycross? I would have though 9/10 years old would be quite young to challenge for dominance and potentially breed etc but as others have said I hope to see them begin to succeed with the West African breeding programme in what I believe to be one of the top chimp exhibits in the UK.
Pandaboi
Well-Known Member
Ah yes sorry! I got the dates mixed up. He was born in 2007.
In early January 2024 I posted an update for UK Chimpanzee population by taxon in the Chimpanzees in the UK thread (post #63).
At the time TWZ held 12 chimpanzees:
Twycross Zoo: 6.6
MM Kibali (P.t. verus)
Jambo Flynn Jomar Peter (P.t. hybrid)
Tommy (P.t. indeterminate)
FF Coco, Josie (P.t. verus)
Samantha (P.r. schweinfurthii)
Holly, Victoria, Tuli (P.t. hybrid)
Are you suggesting now that the older generation are now passing on in quick succesion?
BTW: I am also somewhat surprised about the move of Peter (P.t. hybrid) to Blair Drummond!?? The safari park is down to 2 older females (both quite probably P.t. verus - West African chimpanzee: Chippy (confirmed P.t. verus) and Jill (born in Sierra Leone and was listed as a P.t. unknown, but given that location a probable P.t. verus too). Why send them an hybrid male? What is the plan there?
Pandaboi
Well-Known Member
Twycross Zoos Chimpanzees are getting older so it’s expected for a few of them to pass (like Coco and Holly) I would have expected an announcement from the zoo about their deaths by now.
Holly and Coco (confirmed by keepers) died last year October-November time. Since the passing of Genet in May, Holly and Coco late last year the troop seems really quiet, I’m hoping brining Tommy and new West African females in will make the troop active again even when many of them are getting on in years.
I am guessing they sent Peter to blair drummond because as you said, the females are getting older and may not be recommend to breed. But Peter needed somewhere to go so it was probably the best option.
What was the rationale for sending Peter away? Tension in the group, social ineptitude? Other ...?
Tommy is an indeterminate/unknown subspecific chimp male (as far as I know, unless new research has confirmed otherwise. If so, I would like to know and have a trusted source for that confirmation in paper / source origins).
If TWZ want to set up long term for West African chimpanzee ex situ conservation breeding - which I believe TWZ may look for as a longterm goal given their state of the art somewhat modern chimp facility .... given the indeterminate/unknown subspecific status male Tommy is out of the frame.
The major issue within the UK remains that a good number of the male chimps are either hybrids and or indeterminate/unknowns. This management issue as yet has not been adressed till date decisively and requires a determined and careful BIAZA/EAZA consensus policy within the Chimp EEP and more formally how many spaces for chimpanzees as a species per se will be available longterm and which collections will house only hybrids one sex or breeding groups of West African chimp P. troglodytes verus and/or another subspecies with a conservation need (troglodytes, ellioti).
Male Kibali is - I believe - a relatively new immigrant from outside the old TWZ chimp family - and the only confirmed subspecific P. t. verus (West African chimpanzee) male at TWZ ATM. I personally of the point of view the very fact that out of all males 4 are hybrids and 1 is indeterminate/unknown (Tommy - unless proven otherwise with confirmation evidence and not rumour) is rather problematic and emblematic of having no BIAZA consensus on chimp management in the UK longterm.
What is your perspective on this?
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Background; Tommy and Peter were the last two of the six chimps that formed Twycross' first attempt at keeping more than 2/3 chimps together, they formed a group of six in the old 'Chimp colony' building. It seems Peter could not be integrated into the main group, and so these two have still been living together seperately from all the others in the new building since finally being moved over a couple of years(?) ago now.. Peter's new move was evidently made to allow this impasse to be broken. Despite talk about 'breeding recommendations' etc( or rather not in his case) I think both Peter and William may both be /are castrated males, so its irrelevant anyway? My guess is sending him to a place with two old females is the most likely recipe for success in integrating him with other chimps, rather than e.g. trying it somewhere like Monkeyworld.
Afaik at Twycross only Jambo and Kibale are entire males- though not 100% certain about Flynn and Jomar.. Presumably Jambo (and any others) will have been vasectomised to prevent him breeding, which will be the responsibility of 2nd ranker Kibale- who was originally brought in for this purpose, but the pure 'verus' females have gradually died off since his arrival so he hasn't had the chance yet..
Twycross are bridging the past and future with the current group- the smallest they have had for decades now. The remaining group as it is are mainly ageing hybrids. They evidently propose to add some younger purebred 'verus' females at some stage to rejuvenate the group and slowly transition it to West African chimps as more of the older ones die off.
I'm quite interested why the BBC picked up this particular 'news' story- a single chimp moving to another zoo- odd news item. Publicity for Twycross maybe but nothing new to see there with Peter's departure.
Pandaboi
Well-Known Member
Peter didn’t give in to Jambo being the dominant male making it impossible for the two troops to be turned into one troop. I think it was a smart move for the chimpanzees and will hopefully allow Twycross to bring in younger females to breed. On my recent visits to Chimpanzee Eden, Tommy has looked very slender and I was growing concern for him.
I don’t have an online source but I was told by a keeper that Tommy is a hybrid. Take that as you will.
I would love it for Twycross to house a breeding troop of West African chimpanzees within the state of the art facility. I know many of the keepers and fellow zoochaters would love for Twycross to have chimpanzee offspring in the next couple of years.
I can imagine all of the hybrid males and females will probably not be allowed to breed. Right now, Kibali is the only West African male like you said and the future dominant male in my opinion. He would be the candidate to breed with the future West African females if Twycross does get any in the next few years. Josie could also be a breeding female but I’m not sure about her. She is quite a low ranking female (same with Flynn) and tends to stay clear of the higher ranking males when I visit them.
The other option could be to move Tommy into Jambos troop and form a new troop on the other side with new females and males though I see this as the most unlikely option to happen.
With the move, it allows Jambos troop to now have access outside more often then what they used to have as they rotated with Peter and Tommy. This will be better for them in the long term, especially in the summer as they do enjoy going outside in the afternoons.
If I’m remembering correctly Twycross used to hold a studbook role for chimpanzees in the UK? Though I may be wrong. It would be good to have a BIAZA member to help make decisions about the UK population.
Lafone
Well-Known Member
On the BBC picking it up point I would imagine it’s just local news and an active marketing department - get to go to the zoo and take pictures etc, bit of insight into popular animals - there might be a local radio pick up too for that sort of thing. Publicity focused and ‘interest’ vs pioneering news.
I would think if the move has been planned for twelve months, there will be quick progress on this new direction. I would have thought new females will have already been selected and ready transport sorter rather than later in line with peters move. I would imagine tommy now moving to the back quarters to be introduced to the other troop as I can’t imagine them having him on show as a sole animal. Also if they are intent on using Kibali as the breeding male as I think he was original bought in for they would move home to the other side along with any possible breeding females and new ones as the article suggest. This would both make it easier to introduce Tommy in to the new group with only the one full male to deal with and give jambo an easier life and settle the troop with out haveing to deal with Kibalis pursuit in becoming the new Alfa. Of course this is only my opinion and knowing Twycross of recent times nothing will happen for a decade or two as they all live out their lives.
Reading a few of the other 'news 'articles about this move..I do find the phrasing and descriptions are all rather misleading..they imply that Peter's departure will help Twycross start breeding chimps again. What they really need to say is that will require fresh females to be brought in, but they don't do that, preferring instead to leave that part out as if they can now breed with what they currently have..unlikely- e.g. Josie and Kibale could have bred already if they were going to? Rather confusing if you don't know what's actually happening in this group.
If they get new females in it would indeed make sense to have them living with Kibale in one half of the house- at least initially. Ensure he is the father( with no accidents..) and reduce stress with Jambo over the females etc. But they just need to get some first.
If they get new females in it would indeed make sense to have them living with Kibale in one half of the house- at least initially. Ensure he is the father( with no accidents..) and reduce stress with Jambo over the females etc. But they just need to get some first.
Does anyone know who this leopard is? I don't know exactly when the photo was taken but it was printed in 2011 (according to the date on the back of the print) so must have been taken before then. I'm not even 100% sure it is Twycross, but my parents seemed to think it is
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It seems TWZ management is somewhat failing when it comes to change the dynamics with chimpanzees at the zoo away from an amalgamate of Tea Party / mixed origins chimpanzees to building a socially stable chimpanzee group.
I understand and supported the move away from small groups to a larger social family unit, but what I remain unconvinced about is to leave the hybrid old boys club intact and thus while Jambo (hybrid) is the dominant male with his close allies new male Kibale (West African chimp pure-bred) stands no chance.
I would personally advocate breaking up the current leadership of hybrids and create a bachelor group around Jambo and his band and tend to already create a new group around Kibale and possibly 1-2 other West African chimp males and 3-4 new West African chimp females.
This really does not need wait another 20 years and complete die off of the original Tea Party lot in order to bring about a credible change and build upon the new facility and ex situ conservation breeding combined with conservation education and in situ support for one or more of the chimp release projects in Africa.
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Sounds great but realistically, I'm sure they won't do anything on this scale...all they will do (at most) is add 2-3 West African females with Kibale as probably a seperate group to start with. They won't want to disrupt what they have any further than that or do changes on that sort of scale.
As to where the new females(if and when) would come from, probably need to source from outside UK...
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My feedback may seem or be shrugged off as too harsh and condescending ..., believe me, that is hardly my intentions ..., it is the bared underlying reality cut down to the bone.
As long as TWZ keep the Jambo + band (hybrids) intact new male Kibale (West-African pure-bred) does not stand a chance to tilt matters. It is first and foremost a managing social structure for group and breeding group which makes breaking up the current group inevitable.
In my personal perceptions, (while maybe a great/lovely zoo on its own) TWZ has for far too long always has had a rather inward (I tending to use even backward) and even teethering on the fundamentalist PoV's regarding great ape (and primates') management (exemplified by the very fact that reinventing and modernizing exclosures and exhibits for its main draw primates has been lagging for all these good decades.
Afaik Jambo has almost certainly been vasectomised, you may be aware that he is 1. a hybrid, 2. a 'Chocolate' chimp who is also 3. totally bald from an extreme genetic Alopecia condition. No way would they want to continue any of those three negative traits into another generation. Apart from Kibale, I think the 2 other males (Jomar, Flynn) in the group are either castrated or must also breeding controlled in some way and have been for a long time. But I think with the two large indoor areas in the new house it would be very easy to create a new subgroup with Kibale and fresh females. At the same time taking pressure of the latent competition between Jambo/Kibale which seems always to be present.
I'm sure Twycross (its still a smallish zoo despite its reputation) is just not the sort of zoo where you will get major changes on a bigger scale, like bringing in larger numbers of pure 'verus' chimps than the minimum number of females they would need to restart a breeding group. No reason why they should, and it also would create disruption and stress to all of the current ones I'm sure.
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Lafone
Well-Known Member
It’s an important point about the stability of the current group. While an effective breeding programme is important the welfare of the current group is essential and it’s not ‘inevitable’ to break up the group or ship them around unnecessarily as mentioned earlier in the thread. These animals are not just reproduction machines after all. A new small parallel breeding group as you suggest seems very sensible and could help with management issues too.