Valli the Asiatic cow elephant has lived in a Hindu temple for thirty years after coming there aged one from an elephant orphanage in Sri Lanka. I am sure that she is very well cared for by her Hindu keepers in Wales and I certainly respect people's religious beliefs whatever their faith may be.Even though she is well cared for the fact cannot be denied that she has had no contact with fellow members of her own species since she came to the Welsh temple as a baby.Therefore by living on her own for so long is not perhaps ideal, she has had no company of other elephants and also no opportunity to mate and have a baby of her own.I am in no way attempting to be disrespectful to her owners as I fully appreciate their feelings towards fellow beings, remember that sad business they had a few years ago when they had to have their bull put down as he was a carrier of T.B.? Therefore may I suggest that Valli's owners could at least consider allowing her to live elsewhere so she could have the company of other elephants, even perhaps go to Longleat to become a companion for the retired lady Anne.
Valli the Temple elephant
- Thread starter TARZAN
- Start date
Johnny Morris.
Well-Known Member
As long as this elephant isn't being mistreated, i don't see why they have to consider giving it up.
Johnny Morris.
Well-Known Member
Also if this elephant was only one when they acquired it, would it really be a good idea to take it out of it's own environment and place it in an alien environment? Could it cope with other elephants? What if it couldn't? Should it be moved elsewhere to live on it's own? If it does breed as you seem to suggest it should be allowed to, would it have the maternal instinct to raise a calf? Or should that calf be hand reared? If It's not being mistreated leave it where it is.
Johnny Morris.
Well-Known Member
Realised i was posting about a subject i had very little knowledge about, so i googled valli the elephant and it came up with skanda vale.
I watched the video in this link Skanda Vale | About us | Skanda Vale. I still can't see any reason that they should consider giving their elephant up.
I watched the video in this link Skanda Vale | About us | Skanda Vale. I still can't see any reason that they should consider giving their elephant up.
Many would argue that being denied access to members of its own species is mistreatment.
An argument I hear frequently from those wishing to retain elephants in less than ideal conditions. Could you not argue that if a one year old elephant can cope with being removed from its herd in tropical Sri Lanka and placed in a barn in drizzly Wales, then I think its likely to be able to cope with anything. If you know of an example of an elephant dying from stress associated with being moved into superior environment please let me know.
If it can't well then there is no harm done right? If it can, then what a great outcome. But are we really going to justify the continued existence of this animal in a solitary environment, just because it may not like other elephants?
I may not have liked apples. But my mum still fed them to me as a baby as there was a good chance I would.
depending on the age of the animal (if its in its mid 20's or older its unlikely) it may be too old to breed anyways. I would argue the elephant deserves to be moved simply on the grounds that it is cruel to keep elephants in a solitary condition. The rest is all just speculation on hypotheticals.
It is being mistreated. Elephants should not be kept on their own.
I reiterate I am sure Valli gets the best of everything but the fact cannot be denied that it is not natural for a female Asian elephant to live alone, at least Anne until nine years ago had the company of her own kind, up to seven others at one time and the Roberts family finally allowed Anne to be re homed in a more suitable environment, I am aware that Valli's accommodation at the temple is probably a lot better than what Anne had when she was on tour with the circus, so would it not therefore be preferable for Valli to go to Longleat and be the second elephant to join this proposed European sanctuary or whatever it is called or how it is financed?
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
I think some other factors to consider are the state of her feet, whether there is any sign of arthritis, imperfections in her gait, how far she is walked daily (including in the winter), the amount of space and light she has in her indoor 'barn', her temperment (given she is kept under Free Contact), the amount of time she is shut inside during the winter months, and the surface she spends most of her time on.
If most of these factors reflected a positive situation at Skanda Vale, I would think possibly it would be best for her if they acquired one or two other elephants. Skanda Vale did mention on their previous website that they were trying to raise funds to get a second elephant. However, they may not have the facilities to separate them in the event that they may not get on.
If most of these factors reflected a positive situation at Skanda Vale, I would think possibly it would be best for her if they acquired one or two other elephants. Skanda Vale did mention on their previous website that they were trying to raise funds to get a second elephant. However, they may not have the facilities to separate them in the event that they may not get on.
Therefore may I suggest, speaking as a pure layman, couldn't Valli after Anne has had time to settle in at Longleat, be sent to the Wiltshire estate ,on trial? i.e. see how they get on together, let the knowledgeable people concerned observe them and draw their conclusions from it, bearing in mind Anne's physical condition i.e. arthritis in her back leg and also the fact that Valli has not seen another elephant for thirty years, it might end up a failure, on the other hand it may be a success, the fact that Valli's keepers have considered acquiring a companion for Valli must surely suggest that they themselves are not entirely happy about her living alone, as I am sure they have the deepest respect for her and also all the other animals in their care.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
The biggest issue I see is that the community at Skanda Vale appear to be willing to fight tooth and nail to keep their elephant. So, if conditions affecting the factors I mentioned are favourable at Skanda Vale, I would suggest the biggest welfare issue is her lack of contact with other elephants, which could be remedied by supporting them to acquire other elephants. I would be very surprised if Valli ever leaves Skanda Vale, even on loan.
As has been touched on elsewhere, I think there is something of a supply issue for 'retirement elephants', they are starting to die out in Europe, its happening already, plus we already have two groups of this kind in the British Isles, in Belfast and Blackpool, now Longleat are hoping to do the same. Post-reproductive cows integrated in breeding herds are valuable to young calves being reared in the groups, and are not considered surplus simply because they themselves are past breeding.
Unless a huge amount of noise is made about Valli, I very much doubt she will be going anywhere, and I will be very surprised if Longleat manage to source many elephants to join Anne.
As has been touched on elsewhere, I think there is something of a supply issue for 'retirement elephants', they are starting to die out in Europe, its happening already, plus we already have two groups of this kind in the British Isles, in Belfast and Blackpool, now Longleat are hoping to do the same. Post-reproductive cows integrated in breeding herds are valuable to young calves being reared in the groups, and are not considered surplus simply because they themselves are past breeding.
Unless a huge amount of noise is made about Valli, I very much doubt she will be going anywhere, and I will be very surprised if Longleat manage to source many elephants to join Anne.
Its possible after this furore and all the attendant publicity has all died down, that Longleat will revue their grandoise (and very sudden?) plans in the cold light of day, and opt for a more modified version to suit the reality- maybe a simple upgrade of the existing accomodation and possibly one or two more elephants- if they can find them. That is provided that Anne stays there longterm of course.
I an addition to these , I believe that Noah's Ark , Bristol , plans to house 'retirement elephants' in their new facility .
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
This seems a bit of a black-and-white statement, of the sort that the anti-zoo brigade might make when evaluating the keeping of an animal in captivity. I'm not sure that there can ever be such hard and fast rules. i have no idea of the extent to which this elephant is well cared for; the only evidence I have to make such a judgement are the photos on the website listed above, in which she looks healthy and well loved - but such photos can, of course, be misleading.
As a general rule, though, I must admit to feeling really uncomfortable upon hearing calls for animals to be taken away from their owners because someone deems those animals to be ill-cared for. In the UK, that 'someone' will more than likely be the RSPCA which is, in many ways, a politically-driven organisation, which has its own agenda to fulfil. I'm not sure that I would trust them to be the ultimate arbiters of what is or isn't acceptable. And when we've finished with the elephants, what next? Is someone going to start claiming that animals within zoos are needing to be rehoused?
There's also something a little off-putting about the involvement of Longleat in all of this (that is, the elephant rehoming saga in general, rather than the Hindu elephant case in particular). The assumption from the mainstream press seems to be that, because it is a Safari Park, the level of care that the elephant will receive will be greater than would be the case at a conventional zoo. There is more than enough evidence to suggest that this is most certainly not the case, but public opinion is a powerful thing...
On a different note, there are some great musical downloads on the website mentioned by "Johnny Morris" above.
Something that has struck me about similar discussions about single elephants held privately (mostly circus individuals) is that we probably wouldn't have this discussion about any other species (even allowing for 2 species of elephant in captivity).
Apes (specifically thinking chimps in this case) are generally regarded as requiring access even if not physical contact with members of their own species and thus as a result we have such places as Monkey World and the Welsh Chimp centre in this country, rescuing individuals from solitary confinement or dodgy accomodation. There seems to be little argument that this is not a good idea. (A side thought is that another social ape, namely humans, does psychologically poorly when given limited access to other individuals).
If we were discussing another group-living ungulate then again we would not think that a single individual would be better off with its 'keepers' rather than being exposed to members of it's own species and having the opportunity to behave normally. There are no tight rules or laws governing it but most people would agree that horses do better surrounded by members of their own species, even if not housed in the same paddock.
Then why is that elephants are suddenly a special case? I don't know. I've never worked with elephants, but I have worked with group-living ungulates and primates. My gut feeling is that it is very easy to say that the individual is bonded with person/s and shouldn't be moved or that attempts to integrate individual elephant A with another individual/group has previously failed so we won't try again. I fully accept that we are talking about a very intelligent willful and strong species and one must not make rash decisions, but I wonder whether the status quo of thought is correct.
Apes (specifically thinking chimps in this case) are generally regarded as requiring access even if not physical contact with members of their own species and thus as a result we have such places as Monkey World and the Welsh Chimp centre in this country, rescuing individuals from solitary confinement or dodgy accomodation. There seems to be little argument that this is not a good idea. (A side thought is that another social ape, namely humans, does psychologically poorly when given limited access to other individuals).
If we were discussing another group-living ungulate then again we would not think that a single individual would be better off with its 'keepers' rather than being exposed to members of it's own species and having the opportunity to behave normally. There are no tight rules or laws governing it but most people would agree that horses do better surrounded by members of their own species, even if not housed in the same paddock.
Then why is that elephants are suddenly a special case? I don't know. I've never worked with elephants, but I have worked with group-living ungulates and primates. My gut feeling is that it is very easy to say that the individual is bonded with person/s and shouldn't be moved or that attempts to integrate individual elephant A with another individual/group has previously failed so we won't try again. I fully accept that we are talking about a very intelligent willful and strong species and one must not make rash decisions, but I wonder whether the status quo of thought is correct.
i actually agree with what you say in this post, however to clarify - i do think its cruel to deny an otherwise social animal the opportunity to be intergraded with her own kind. If the animal proved unsocial then yes, i would argue that under the circumstances that its best she stay by herself, but to argue hypotheticals, without ever even trying - this really annoys me.
i think the "what they have always known" argument is a load of garbage
I was sickened by some of the elements of the Anne campaign. Whats more disturbing though, is that zoochatters seem determined to trigger another one over an animal that, by all accounts, seems quite contented.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
By which accounts?
There have been a number of attempts to draw attention to Valli, but nothing has really happened so far, as Tetrapod says I think people seem to object less to the idea of elephants being kept singly than, say, primates. Unless there an issue comes up with the licensing, or evidence surfaces of any mistreatment, I very much doubt she'll be leaving Skanda Vale.
There have been a number of attempts to draw attention to Valli, but nothing has really happened so far, as Tetrapod says I think people seem to object less to the idea of elephants being kept singly than, say, primates. Unless there an issue comes up with the licensing, or evidence surfaces of any mistreatment, I very much doubt she'll be leaving Skanda Vale.
I touched on this, maybe in the other thread about the Longleat elephant Anne. I'd be surprised if there are enough such Elephants in Europe(anywhere) to sustain such centres in two places. Will Noah's Ark drop their plans if Longleat get theirs going first? (Longleat already having one Elephant plus existing accomodation)
Last edited:
I wrote an article recently at ShowMe Elephants regarding elephants of the United Kingdom, where I first learned of the only sacred temple elephant in the country.
Can you provide us with more information regarding their previous elephant, the bull you state was euthanized because of tuberculosis?
>> "Elephants of the United Kingdom" at ShowMe Elephants
Standpitpony
Well-Known Member
Is anne the elephant settling in well?
Sorry, it was not a bull elephant, it was a bull i.e. cattle, apologies for any confusion.