Taronga Western Plains Zoo Valuable Horses Vaccinated

jelle said:
Where a designated species genetic or longterm future is comprimised, ARAZPA should work Biosecurity to allow for a larger and more relaxed import/export scheme for exotic and local wildlife. This is in the interest of local and global species management (while observing local veterinary protocols).
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You seem to assume that ARAZPA, and zoos in this region are just sitting back and doing nothing about the importation issues. It's probably THE biggest issue facing the longevity of our populations of exotic species, and the long-term existence of a number of our zoos. Of course ARAZPA is working with the government departments to try to come up with some better options with regards to imports, and discussions have been going on for many years. No doubt, they will continue for many more years to come.

But it is not just a matter of saying "Hey Government, change the rules will you? We won't let anything bad happen." As I mentioned elsewhere, the recent equine influenza outbreak probably set us back years in negotiations, and does nothing to assure the government departments that "We won't let anything bad happen."

It's going to take a lot more time yet, and a lot more smart discussion and negotiation on ARAZPA's behalf.
 
ZooPro said:
You seem to assume that ARAZPA, and zoos in this region are just sitting back and doing nothing about the importation issues. It's probably THE biggest issue facing the longevity of our populations of exotic species, and the long-term existence of a number of our zoos. Of course ARAZPA is working with the government departments to try to come up with some better options with regards to imports, and discussions have been going on for many years. No doubt, they will continue for many more years to come.

But it is not just a matter of saying "Hey Government, change the rules will you? We won't let anything bad happen." As I mentioned elsewhere, the recent equine influenza outbreak probably set us back years in negotiations, and does nothing to assure the government departments that "We won't let anything bad happen."

It's going to take a lot more time yet, and a lot more smart discussion and negotiation on ARAZPA's behalf.
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Zoopro,

Do not be so stingy! :) I am not assuming or criticising ARAZPA on this. Just looking for a way forward.

Try to view the bigger picture here. We all want the same!

And just to keep you up .. we experience the same thing in Europe with EU officials now tightening up veterinary regulations for all exotic wildlife. Yet in full contrast domestic cattle can be transported without much paperwork or health testing.
 
jelle said:
Try to view the bigger picture here. We all want the same!
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I was trying to get you to see the bigger picture! :D

I'm just saying that there isn't a simple solution that's easy to reach, otherwise we'd have reached it years ago! Hopefully, we'll get there one day, but it's been ongoing for many many years so far....
 
Zoopro,

I have been discussing these issues for years with zookeepers and other staff members. Having been involved with wild animals and veterinary procedures, testing, paperwork ... I know that transport and veterinary health are mindboggling affairs. :cool:

And I just think it unjust that our wildlife and endangered species suffer more of these - sometimes justifiable, but at other times steep - consequences than domestic stock have for economic reasons. :(

More and more habitat is being lost, so more fragmented wildlife populations, so an even bigger demand on zoos to provide a safe haven for endangered flora and fauna. We can not give that commitment with all these obstacles and new regulations coming our way.

The politicians and officialdom must start to see that we need transparant, just and efficient regulations if we are to save our earth's natural resources. A better example of late in Australia was the rescue mission for Tassie devils!
 
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this conversation is going around in circles....

its seems a bit to me like jelle is saying "you NEED to be like this" and zoopro is saying "i know, unfortunately its not up to us, but we are trying to get our way..." and then jelle says "no, but you really NEED to do this...." and zoopro says "yes i know, ITS NOT UP TO US.....but we are trying.."

we know jelle, we know.

and we all know what the ideal is here. and thats not the case so lets stop expecting this and that. no doubt things will change when we eventually open up the laws, but in the meantime its my attitude that all conservation issues are out the window with artodactyls in australia - its about display and education.......thats it. and just becuse we keep rare artiodactyls doesn't mean WE HAVE to engage in a strict global coservation program if we are not up to it right now. but we'll reserve the right to keep these animals, however necessary, so we can look at them thankyou very much.

we do however have something to contribute to the conservation of native species, carnivores and primates.
 
we do however have something to contribute to the conservation of native species, carnivores and primates.[/QUOTE]

Pat I can see your point in what you are saying and I do agree with you but dont you feel when it comes to Carnivores we can open up the scope a little and contribute with the breeding of some big cat species such as Jaguars and Clouded leopards? do we really need to limit ourselves to just one species of spotted cat (the Cheetah)?, do we need to prune back so hard on these species that can be imported if need be? just a thought.
 
patrick said:
we know jelle, we know.

and we all know what the ideal is here. and thats not the case so lets stop expecting this and that. no doubt things will change when we eventually open up the laws, but in the meantime its my attitude that all conservation issues are out the window with artodactyls in australia - its about display and education.......thats it. and just becuse we keep rare artiodactyls doesn't mean WE HAVE to engage in a strict global coservation program if we are not up to it right now. but we'll reserve the right to keep these animals, however necessary, so we can look at them thankyou very much.

we do however have something to contribute to the conservation of native species, carnivores and primates.
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hi pat,

Please do not be mad with me that I find it difficult to come to terms with the current Biosecurity policy in Australia. I am sure you Ozzies have all considered the arguments, understand the situation more than anyone and somehow find a way forward on this.

It is not that I am want for wish this or that, it is just that the current Biosecurity regulations are putting at risk the long term viability of zoo population management in Australia. This goes not just for exotic endangered species, but all exotic wildlife in Australia.

I am well aware of the threat posed by introduced species (e.g. rats, cats, dogs, foxes) to native species that have led to the current Biosecurity regulations. It is just sad to have to come to terms with the fact that in the long run whole family accolades of exotic wildlife may no longer be displayed in your continent's zoos in as the obstacles to import and/or export remain so formidable and thus populations can no longer made to be genetically healthy or viable in the longterm. That is what I am really trying to comprehend.

I hope that ARAZPA can confront this head-on and somehow find a balanced way forward.


However, to put things into perspective it is not just Australia that is facing increasing difficultly in this terrain. In Europe we currently still have a justifiable and well-balanced wildlife health and transport policy regulating import and export of exotic wildlife. However, we are facing a gradual tightening of the knot also with EU officials currently drafting a policy that will make it virtually impossible to initiate captive-breeding programmes for any exotic species or transport exotic species across international borders. It just can not have been the objective of policy makers that this in effect will block prime objectives of recognized zoos: to maintain and breed genetically viable populations of all species on display and provide support to ex situ or in situ conservation for endangered species. And yes, our regional organisation EAZA is putting pressure on EU officials to have the policy altered to allow for a relaxed regimen for captive-breeding purposes.


Let us keep fingers crossed for the better both in Oz and for me ;) at home here. I guess you Ozzies will now all give out a big sigh of relief that I keep it at that :D.

For now that is :eek: as I feel it is both healthy and good to discuss these issues and put a perspective on them.
 
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jelle - not "mad" just get a little frustrated its cool.

mark - carnivores such as sunbears and cats are one of the more expensive animals to maintain if the aim is for an eventually regionally sustainable population (which it is). maintaining cats in "pairs" is an outdated and flawed management method in which all sorts of problems arise. the idea now is to house cats individually and pair them at the right time, it reflects naure much better and as a result is a more successful method and controlling breeding. the alternative is to look at castration of males (which may be regretted longer), contraceptives of females (which can result in damage to reproductive systems long-term) and risking unplanned births.

so not only are we STILL needing to secure more spaces for many carnivores, we are shifting to a method of management that requires even more enclosures STILL!!!!

now you have zoos like melbourne looking at building another tiger exhibit to support their population more than doubling from one birth. even though about a decade ago they invested in a brand new tiger enclosure.

theres only so much money. and thats the crucial thing to remember - lions, tigers, cheetah and snow leopard are doing better than jaguar and puma and certainly clouded leopard in our zoos.

it would be incompetant to neglect these species just to invest in a half-arsed effort with another would it not?

so right now the main focus is, and rightly so, lets get it right with these species first.
hopefully, what we will see is better co-operation in from now on and the days of importing species like persian leopard only to give up the program a few years down the track is passed.

hopefully, what we will see is a massive regional collapse in collection sizes with the result being a smaller (in terms of species), but much better managed sustainable collection. once that happens, its inevitable that it will start to expand again, but i'm hoping with much more care, cooperation and better planning this time.

no doubt when that happens zoos will start to discuss bringing in charismatic species they are missing...

sure i'm with you - personally if i was a zoo curator i would have maintained jaguars. but i would probably have preferred if our region had never had chimps. i probably would have not kept seals either and would have picked indian rhino over black rhino any day of the week.

but i have never been a zoo curator. and so now we have a massive population of chimps in australia that it would be rediculous to phase-out. the jaguars are old and on their last legs becuse there was no room to breed them becuse someone had the idea to import persian leopards AND regular balck leopards AND pumas AND clouded leopards..

so lets do right what we are in the best position to do right with. of course when meanwhile taronga and melbourne prioritise imports of new species such as dhole it does make me loose a little faith...
 
so lets do right what we are in the best position to do right with. of course when meanwhile taronga and melbourne prioritise imports of new species such as dhole it does make me loose a little faith...[/QUOTE]

Pat thanks for the expanation and yes I do see your point and agree with what you have said, I do also lose a little faith with our zoos when new species are imported while others here seam to fall down between the cracks and over looked (like the pygmy hippo), do we know yet why it took so long to get the few remaining animals together?
 
pat,

That seems like a realistic approach to me. Is there a form of species management for the other carnivores (other than the cheetah and snow leopard)?

I suppose this could also go in the thread on what species would you like and .. then the discussion will impart on what species can be realistically be maintained!
 
on the other hand, an australasian breeding program for dhole is about ten times more valuable than maintaining a small, inbred population of an albeit endangered species like the p. hippo.
i too, like Pat, look forward to the day when every brown bear in Australia is dead. maybe thats a bit drastic, but wouldnt it be exciting to read an updated 'going, going, gone' report with a new list of sustainable species including sun bear, dhole and maned wolves for example.
 
So, should Australasian zoos keep the animals whose conservation is important, such as sun bears and dholes, or should they keep the animals that the public prefers, such as chimps and brown bears?

To answer that you need to answer the question, "What is the purpose of a zoo?"
No two people will give you the same answer.

In the meantime, any realistic zoo director will try to keep some of both.
 
glyn said:
on the other hand, an australasian breeding program for dhole is about ten times more valuable than maintaining a small, inbred population of an albeit endangered species like the p. hippo.
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absolutely, i get your point. but in the case of the pygmy hippo there is a couple of things worth noting...

theyare not currently inbred and with some good luck and good management, they will not be for another two generations. thanks to the long lifespan of the species that could give the few australian zoos that maintain the species up to 40 years to work on getting those importation laws relaxed and still be able to continue breeding the current zoo bloodlines. the australian population may not be doomed as a "dead-end"

lets be honest though. we don't want our zoos to become for currently endangered species only, and we shouldn't always wait for a species to become endangered before we start trying to create an insurance captive population. many animals have become endangered after zoos developed a long history with the species, which helps a lot when it comes to developing a more intesive breeding program.

zoos should display diversity keeping a very strong favoratism for representatives of families that are endangered. so i don't expect a wild canine species be phased out for an hippo or a big cat for a primate.
 
Want to see what a dhole looks like? Go to your local council pound, there will be 40 dogs there that look just like them!

On the other hand, nothing else looks like a pygmy hippo.

(Jeez I'm an ignorant redneck, aren't I!) :D
 
I like dholes! They're a nice exhibit for the zoo. AND they're classified as endangered - but then, so are Pygmy Hippos. Dholes are a more interesting exhibit; I've seen the dholes at Taronga playing around and I've only seen them twice, while I have NEVER seen the Pygmy Hippo move and often don't see it at all.
 
Geoffrey said:
Dholes are a more interesting exhibit; I've seen the dholes at Taronga playing around and I've only seen them twice, while I have NEVER seen the Pygmy Hippo move and often don't see it at all.
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its all in how they are displayed. most animals are interesting if the exhibit is designed in a way that makes the most of their natural behaviours. at melbourne the hippos got more visitor time time in than many species, because they had underwater viewing and frequently displayed curiosity towards people and spent time up aginst the glass..
 
True - the Pygmy Hippo exhibit at Taronga leaves a lot to be desired; hopefully it will be redesigned eventually. But I wouldn't say that the dholes' exhibit is all that great either.
 
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I'm pretty sure that the current tahr exhibit is heritage-listed - I know that it's one of the oldest exhibits in the zoo, and it recently underwent a facelift. Looks as though the zoo might be hoping to incorporate it into the redeveloped area. Like the golden cat idea though.
 
it doesnt sound too different to whats already there zoo boy. im not suggesting that pygmy hippo be phased out, i was merely emphasising that Australian zoos in a global ex-situ conservation context have much more to offer endangered primates and carnivores over endangered artiodactyl species, which cannot be exchanged overseas freely.
i like pygmy hippo. i think their current status sucks. i also think that if the transfer of the animals to sydney works then this species will recover short to medium term. pygmy hippo and river hippo are one of the few species currently listed as 'may do ok if circumstances change' that i care alot about seeing move to 'viable'
 
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