Wales Ape & Monkey Sanctuary WAMS and Bili the Bonobo

littleRedPanda

littleRedPanda

Well-Known Member
I've been following the story about WAMS attempt to "rescue" Bili the Bonobo from Wuppertat zoo. They have been claiming that Wuppertal made libellous claims against them via a press release and a leaflet, but a friend who is really into the story has found no evidence of slander. WAMS also describe the BBC online report on the matter as "lazy reporting."

Again today, they are whipping up their followers with the following post on facebook
Have heard Wuppertal Zoo have something to say about us. Well:-
We don't need a furtive press officer to speak for us. All the money our visitors donate is spent directly on the animals. We don't spend millions on a CAFE and the Trustees are UNPAID, unlike the director at Wuppertal. In case anyone doesn't know there is no Government or EU funding/grants available to animals in Wales. We have a License and unlike Wuppertal Zoo our apes and monkeys ALL have outside areas and ALL are rescued and none are in breeding programmes consigning more animals to a life of captivity. Neither do they live as if they are in a shop window in a mall.


These remarks could be targeted at the majority of modern zoos, so I wondered what people thought of this. Personally, I think they are embarrassing, especially turning up at Wuppertal with a Union Flag (actually looks like the fella is just posing with someone holding the flag, so I may have got that wrong myself :) ).
 
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Okay, I promised not to go on about the subject, so my final reference to this "sanctuary" is to express my disgust at them giving a facebook thumbs up to someone posting "I hope all these zoos are closed"
 
littleRedPanda said:
unlike Wuppertal Zoo our apes and monkeys ALL have outside areas and ALL are rescued and none are in breeding programmes consigning more animals to a life of captivity. Neither do they live as if they are in a shop window in a mall.
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Anyone familiar with the exhibit quality at WAMS is certain to roll their eyes at this passage in particular..... :P

For instance:

Mixed exhibit for Mandrill and Spider Monkey:

full


Cottontop Tamarin and Common Marmoset:

full


European Wolf:

full
 
They don’t have European Wolves. They have wolfdogs which effectively are domestic pets, as they are just a hybrid dog which has flooded the pet trade.
 
Zooreviewsuk said:
They don’t have European Wolves. They have wolfdogs which effectively are domestic pets, as they are just a hybrid dog which has flooded the pet trade.
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Are they proven in some way? It was my understanding that most wolfdogs in the UK are just husky/GSD crosses bred to look like wolves.
 
Devi said:
Are they proven in some way? It was my understanding that most wolfdogs in the UK are just husky/GSD crosses bred to look like wolves.
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I think these may be wolf/dog hybrids, i.e. they do have some (recent) wolf ancestry, as against the 'wolfdogs' that are created purely from domestic dogs. But I may be wrong.
 
So these are the kind of cages they house their primates in while they wait to die.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Anyone familiar with the exhibit quality at WAMS is certain to roll their eyes at this passage in particular..... :p

For instance:

Mixed exhibit for Mandrill and Spider Monkey:

full


Cottontop Tamarin and Common Marmoset:

full


European Wolf:

full
Click to expand...

Haven't seen such poor enclosures since Bridgemere closed.
 
Having been following the Bili story, admittedly only over the last week and not since concerns were first raised by actual visitors who already appear to have had a grudge or two against Wuppertal, my interest in this sanctuary has been reignited. This post is not actually related to Bili, but a couple of remarks made by WAMS over the past week.

There were three occasions when I was briefly working in the Swansea area in 2016/18 that I considered visiting, but having read the reviews on here and viewed the photos, I decided not to go out of my way to squeeze in an hours visit. I might still go and visit, because after all, their "free" occupants need food and care which is all the entry fee goes towards, "unlike zoos".

So on facebook, amongst their followers comments there are calls for all zoos to close, to which WAMS give the thumbsie approval. They then posted a statement (as I quoted earlier) which slams zoos and have openly taken great offence by the comment form Wuppertal referring to them as like a zoo, taking money off people to view captive animals; also like zoos, they offer experiences, for extra payment and adoptions, for extra payment. A friend of mine who really has got her back up over this found a page on their website that pushed me to make this post.

About Sanctuaries

I wont try to summarise the page, but ask about something within it that ties to another claim on facebook, which might well be true and can be answered quickly here. The page linked, as well as claiming that zoos still take animals from the wild and sell them, refers to rescuing animals from zoos which are "often supported as public amenities by local councils and funding agencies." On facebook, as part of their put down of Wuppertal, they claimed to have worked with 6 (I think) German zoos with out any trouble until now. I can only see the mention of one German zoo on their site, which I believe was a private collection. Does anyone have details of others?


I had to look it up, but I remembered @Zooreviewsuk making a few comments about a visit there (posted in the Chester fire thread) and saying they were lovely people, so I wanted reassuring that I wouldn't be fed to their animals if I visited one day without sharing their views on zoos.
 
@LRP

I am probably not the right person to comment on your request as I've been defensive of the place which seems to get rattled a few on here but I am happy to say what I think.

I popped in one day when I was in the area and I was surprised by the place.

No it's not the quality of Monkey World, with huge exhibits and everything that goes with it, but they are a sanctuary, Monkey World in my opinion is not. Monkey World ask for huge donations to assist it the rehoming of animals. They stated a few years ago they would only rescue a number of primates and build facilities if they got a grant of £500,000, this is what irks me. They are a selective sanctuary in my eyes. If someone out there is willing to fund it massively then they will help, otherwise they aren't interested.

This makes me question can they really be classed as a sanctuary as rescue centres and sanctuaries are places that take in anything and work to the best they can.

The Welsh Monkey Sanctuary was of course set up to home the Chimps after a Welsh Zoo closed and the chimps were effectively on death row. All very sad.

The exhibits are on the whole plain, the Gibbons is quite decent and the Chimps are adequate, but this is a place which is constantly building what they can to provide homes for animals which effectively have been cast aside by the likes of Monkey World as it doesn't suit them, and the alternative is basically that they will be left somewhere they wont be cared for or worse still PTS.

Given some of the stories on the boards at the site which show conditions some animals were kept in, in foreign zoo's I can see why those running the place may be one visioned when it comes to zoos.

Every penny in goes to feed the animals and they survive on hand outs. The animals are nice to meet, I see that James Corden, Graham Norton and Sheridan Smith have all donated and gone there and worked with the keepers. They continue to donate and support and I think that is magnificent.

No the structures the animals live in AREN'T STATE OF THE ART!! No they are not as good as even some small zoo's would have, but they are there to give the animals a safe home, where they are well cared for. The place 100% struggles but they don't turn animals away, as they are a sanctuary and every story on every board there is very sad and heart rendering. Many of these animals would have been killed without their help, which they get no support or payment from. It is what a rescue centre / sanctuary is really like, not a high profile place playing the sanctuary card whilst demanding significant funding or they wont help.

I made it very clear I was pro zoo when I was there, there was no heated discussions or arguments and they were kind, helpful and easy to talk to about their animals and hearing some stories made me gut wrenchingly sad. I was more than happy to donate and support and wish I could have done more. I have said I want to go back on an experience day, as it would be nice to see how they operate first hand and see the animals close up, but most importantly knowing that the £150 I would be spending would go a long long way to helping the animals there. The fact the place has raffles to basically get rid of bric a brac to make a few pounds to help feed the animals shows how tight things are.

Don't go there if you're expecting massive exhibits, great views, good photo opportunities because you wont see any of that. But if you want to see a number of animals which without them would be dead or in far worse conditions and see that these people 100% care for these animals and put themselves last to see they can have a safe life, then yes it's definitely worth going to.
 
Zooreviewsuk said:
Many of these animals would have been killed without their help.
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It is perhaps surprising in this day and age, but this can still be true even with unusual or comparatively rare species, if they don't fit a holding zoo's requirements. I know of at least one case not that long ago where a pair of monkeys were rescued by a sanctuary (not this one) from a major UK zoo after it became apparent they were going to be euthanased. And its a great shame the breeding group of Sooty Mangabeys which went to Penscynor from London Zoo(after they didn't want them anymore) did not go here after it closed. Instead they simply disappeared, so I suspect they were euthanased, perhaps before WAMS opened.

It may be experiences like this which they have had, which makes them so hostile to Wuppertal Zoo and the case of Bili the Bonobo. (though I am sure he won't come here as it would be quite pointless and against his interests to live alone)
 
Zooreviewsuk said:
In regards to Bill The Bonobo, why can he simply not just go back to Frankfurt ?
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It depends who you believe. Looking at the translation of the Great Ape Project report, they believe Wuppertal paid for Bili, so do not want to lose their purchase. I thought i'd read that two females at Frankfurt were recently introduced that would not be a match for breeding, but I'm sure I'm also losing the plot due to reading different perspectives and translations.
 
The Great Apr Project are disputing the close genetic profile to other animals at Frankfurt simply because he was not born there.
 
littleRedPanda said:
It depends who you believe. Looking at the translation of the Great Ape Project report, they believe Wuppertal paid for Bili, so do not want to lose their purchase. I thought i'd read that two females at Frankfurt were recently introduced that would not be a match for breeding, but I'm sure I'm also losing the plot due to reading different perspectives and translations.
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The Great Ape Project is basically a bunch of activists that wants to end the keeping of great apes in captivity. You can't expect them to provide facts. Wuppertal paying for a Bonobo is nonsense.

The EAZA report gives 2 clear reasons why Bili can't stay there:
1) Frankfurt is already at capacity
2) the close genetic profile. I cannot comment on that, but I am sure @Bjoern can.
 
littleRedPanda said:
The Great Apr Project are disputing the close genetic profile to other animals at Frankfurt simply because he was not born there.
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lintworm said:
2) the close genetic profile. I cannot comment on that, but I am sure @Bjoern can.
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Note that the EAZA statement says "his relatively close genetic profile to other animals at Frankfurt" (my italics). The word "relatively" is likely to be important in the context between the populations at the different zoos.
 
lintworm said:
The Great Ape Project is basically a bunch of activists that wants to end the keeping of great apes in captivity. You can't expect them to provide facts. Wuppertal paying for a Bonobo is nonsense.
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Like I said, I am confusing myself somewhat by reading both sides of the argument. The lady who was being very balanced with my friend via private messages, referred to GAP as a "professional organization (who dares to give own opinion)" but is although not blinkered like many, is more biased in the opposite way to me and my friends.
 
Pertinax said:
It may be experiences like this which they have had, which makes them so hostile to Wuppertal Zoo and the case of Bili the Bonobo. (though I am sure he won't come here as it would be quite pointless and against his interests to live alone)
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I found this quite saddening from a A conversation with zoo biologist Andreas Haeser-Kalthoff

Would Bili have to endure the aggressions in nature?
Yes, says the biologist. Even in the wild with far-reaching escape possibility Bili would not leave his group. He would seek distance, which tries to allow the nursing team through the time-outs. Then he would come back and endure the beatings. Bonobos die without a group.
 
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