What are the differences between elephants and big cats in zoos vs. circuses?

DavidBrown

Well-Known Member
15+ year member
I recently saw an advertisement for a circus coming through the area where I live that advertised elephant, big cat, and monkey acts.

I once had a zoo professional friend say that without a real conservation purpose that zoos are just circuses that don't move.

This got me to wondering what the real difference between zoos keeping elephants and circuses keeping elephants is, ditto lions, tigers, etc. Some would argue that zoos and circuses are both in the entertainment business and that animals like elephants in both environments have no business being there.

I think that zoos have a great potential as conservation institutions and that their residents could be very meaningful ambassadors for their wild relatives (e.g., the gorillas at Congo Gorilla Forest in the Bronx Zoo raising money and awareness for their wild cousins, ditto giant pandas in zoos around the world, etc.).

I think that the main legitimacy that zoos have over circuses is that their elephants and big cats can be conservation ambassadors for their wild relatives. Without actually making this connection work and animals and their exhibits having real conservation purpose (however that would be measured), I'm not sure that zoos would have a good argument for keeping elephants. Are there other reasons?

Do circuses have any legitimate reason for keeping elephants? My gut feeling is that the enjoyment that mainstream people once took in seeing elephant shows in circuses is waning as awareness of wild elephant behavior and culture increases and seeing elephants do tricks loses its appeal. This is primarily a hunch as I have no data.

I would be interested to hear the thoughts of others on this? The Oakland Zoo has started advocating for elephants to be removed from circuses. Are other zoos doing this as well?
 
This got me to wondering what the real difference between zoos keeping elephants and circuses keeping elephants is, ditto lions, tigers, etc.

From my very personal point of view;

I would say elephant on circus:

1
1A environment:
* have totally less space to use, when unchained.
*have limited possibilities to keep bulls.

1B management:
* spend more time on chains, than zoo elephants.
* can eat more food (spending more time eating) since they also consume the energy while working.
*depending on which circus, and degree of training, can be walked around, like spending time in a lake or river at various places.
* how much more training and care attention, often more than four people work every day, and often until late evenings (6 or 7-sometimes 10 am), providing food.
*are more often taken care of by uneducated, poor people, who at least in he past, carried for example tuberculosis, why more circus elephants have TB.
*are less aggressive, since they are tended much more instensive, by so many people daily.
* are managed in a traditional way which in modern view, have drawbacks, like the lack of enrichment.
* need less enrichment if they are worked intensively.
*are always managed in free contact why most human manipulation, like medical care etc , most often can be performed without major problems, or sedatives.
*More manpower, and better possibilities to select people with natural talent to work dangerous animals.

1C social life
* have less social interaction between individuals.
*have less conflicts within the heard, partly becasue of the human manipulation, that keep the elephants in better control.
*today, in most places have less breeding, even if circuses bred elephants before zoos did.


1D physical, medical, mental
* have less veterinary attention.
*have less need of veterinary attention.
* paradoxily, in spite of that they are chained longer times, on wooden platforms, they seldom experience damaged joints from cold and hard floor, and many asian elephants actually get very old on circuses.
*african elephants, have for some reasons, a shorter life time on circus.
* when not trained, or walked, spend more time passive, and bored.
*when trained and walked, gets much more stimulation than in zoos.
*show more sterotypical behavior, e.g. rocking.
* have better muscles, and are mostly more bodily fit.
* show less stress measured in blood, when experiencing not daily activities, like transport, or being in new situations, new environments.


I would say elephant in zoos:

2A environment:
*have more space to use, during working hours 7pm-4am, or 8pm-5am.
*have better possibilities to keep bulls.

2B management:
* more affected by welfare people, and sometimes elephants are put in PC, which not needlessly gained anything positive with this change.
*spend less time on chains.
*need more enrichment.
*have more educated staff in zoology, but often with less talent to work dangerous animals in free contact. Theres lesser possibilities for zoos to keep training experts, and head keepers often get their rank because of social political reasons.

2C social life
*have more social interaction between individuals.
* have more conflicts within the group, since keeper have less possibilities to control the elephants, espcially in PC, then social problems within the herd, are mostly solved by isolate some individuals, confined from each other.
*are more often being transfered to protected contact, where less care and manipulation can be done.
*have more breeding

2D physical, medical, mental
* have more veterinary attention.
*have more need of veterinary attention.
*have more often foot and joint problems, since they spend more time on hard surfaces, like concrete floors.
*asians generally lives shorter time than on circus.
*africans generally lives longer time than on circus.
* spend less time totally bored, but also less time, really stimuted.
*show less stereotypical behaviour.
* have less muscles, and are mostly less bodily fit, often overweighted and fat, which also cause more joint problems, espcially in combination of arthritis.
* gets easier stressed in unusal situations.
*are more dependant on drugs for medical manipulation.

I see drwabcks with both systems, and if the circus today would not be such an infected political issue, I think actually some zoo elephants would benefit a lot, if they would every second, or third summer, on circus, while some elephants on circus would benefit from getting 1-2 years pauses in a zoo now and then.

Such arrangments were possible in the past, when it was more or less the same elephants, and the same people taking care of them, in zoos and circuses.

Today, because of welfare critisism, by people who actuallty never worked a single elephant, zoos take a distance to circuses, becasue of political issues, and walls have been bulit between the wto business, making any kind of exchange of animals, ideas, training concepts etc impossible.

Before, rather often, the wto instituition models could actually help and support each other, today they can not, increasing problems, on both sides.

Summarize, I think elephants on circuses are much healthier, and more alert, but also spend much more time bored. But they are worked more intensively, and have less agression towards keepers,

Zoo elephants are less healthier, less alert, more apathic, but visually between 8 and 5, where they are atteneded by keepers and are outside in enclosure, are less bored. Zoo elephants have more agression toward keepers, who have to run bewteen hippos, giraffes, rhinos etc, and seldom are given proper time for training, resulting in more conflicts between elephants and keepers, and elephants and elephants.

Circuses are today somewhat put in a shame corner, while they in reality provided zoos with most management and training knowledge.

When only regarding elephants, it could be said that circuses is the mother of zoos. Today they can not more communicate or cooperate, and this has been a general drwback for both concepts. Because even if the world changes, and attitudes change, sometimes mom knows best, and can solve issues that children suffer from, even if those children are more well educated, and more modern....

Circuses today could also benefit from more theoreticl education from zoos, and more input to modernize the general view on management.

Not mentioned by David here, is animal brookers. They have almost disapeared today in regard to elephants, since it has likevise become a political issue, and may zoos fear to cooperate with brookers, by importing, and in exchange programs. But in the past, brookers like Hagenbecks (who had all three concepts, capture stations, zoos and circuses) Firma Ruhe and others, had competence collected from often more than 2 generations, and their expertise was a benefit for selection of animals, choice of individuals, and they even sometimes had unique medical knowledge about elephants, which today is completely lost. As a result, imports, transports and exchange today are much more problemtic, since not every zoo not has expertise in this.

Generally, welfare groups consists of people with good wishes, but limited competence, and although not openly, they are against all captive keeping of "wild" species. They have not reached their goal, and hopefully never will, but they have created a lot of damage concearning a number of issues, which would have been easier solved in the past, when communication bridges, and cooperation, was natural, between zoos, circuses, and brookers/dealers.

becasue of this, I belive that more elephant individuals suffer nedlessy today, becasue the different institutions can not, or may not, cooperate.
 
From my very personal point of view;
*today, in most places have less breeding, even if circuses bred elephants before zoos did.

Considering that with one single exception, all traveling circus elephants in Europe were wild caught, I would say that your statement of "less breeding" is a gross misrepresentation. I also believe that the number of elephants in North American circuses that were bred and raised in a traveling situation is probably extremely low. Most captive born circus elephants in the US are either from Roman Schmidt or the Ringling station which were/are basically like a zoo situation. Honestly, I also find your idea of putting zoo elephants in a circus for one or two years quite frighting !
 
Regarding the Ringling Brothers Barnum and Bailey elephant conservation center, while it is true that they do breed Asian elephants on this site, there is criticism at the young age the calves are taken away from their mothers to commence their circus training,also, from what photographic evidence I have seen regarding this training it certainly does not make a pretty picture.
 
I believe zoos are very different as they often help animal species in breeding programs and study in diseases such as the tasmanian devil facial tumours.
 
So the funding and research on EEHV and assisted reproductive techniques have no conservation value? How is this different from what zoos do?
 
So the funding and research on EEHV and assisted reproductive techniques have no conservation value? How is this different from what zoos do?

Zoos contribute to wild elephant conservation. The focus on elephant reproduction is of value to Ringling Brothers for breeding more baby elephants for circus use, and of course has value for the zoo captive elephant population. To the degree that zoo elephants are meaningful conservation ambassadors then perhaps the reproductive research has some ancillary conservation value, but certainly not the value that the circus PR machine would lead people to believe.

It really bothers me when the circus folks wrap themselves in the PR blanket of conservation. If they think that their use of elephants has some legitimate societal purpose because of its entertainment value then they should argue on those merits.
 
So Ringling Brothers' contributions to the International Elephant Foundation are meaningless?

http://www.elephantconservation.org/downloads/pdf3/IEF Newsletter 2010 final 4-10.pdf

Yes, I do think that their contribution to the IEF is meaningless. I think that the circus world is losing legitimacy with the public with their elephants, and I don't think that they truly care about the conservation of wild elephants and their habitat. They care about making people think that they care so that they continue on with their elephant shows with some "greenwashing".

I don't want to come across as an animal rights wacko here. I don't think that circuses are evil, but I do think that their use of elephants has become archaic. This is my opinion, and may not reflect that of mainstream society - but I think increasingly that it does.
 
Yes, I do think that their contribution to the IEF is meaningless. I think that the circus world is losing legitimacy with the public with their elephants, and I don't think that they truly care about the conservation of wild elephants and their habitat. They care about making people think that they care so that they continue on with their elephant shows with some "greenwashing".

I don't want to come across as an animal rights wacko here. I don't think that circuses are evil, but I do think that their use of elephants has become archaic. This is my opinion, and may not reflect that of mainstream society - but I think increasingly that it does.

You are certainly not coming across as an animal rights wacko. And Ringling Brothers and other circuses may not be alone. There are many zoos out there that are just the same - public ones too. I've seen zoos that promote their conservation efforts of one-time contributions they made several years ago as if the zoo is annually and actively still participating in the project. Are zoos "green-washing" their visitors as well? Just to promote themselves as a center of conservation? Maybe zoos need a conservation rating, just as many non-profits are rated on their revenue/expenses? That could certainly scare the AZA.

And your opinions of circuses are your own. But generally circus elephants are healthier than zoo elephants. And even though many may think the circus life for an elephant is cruel, have any of us asked an elephant if they enjoy it or not? What about birds that are pinioned or have their wings clipped? Do any of us really know how animals think about captivity?

I have a dog that loves traveling and spending time in his crate. But how can i compare a dog to an elephant? How can i compare a human to an elephant? When and how can we determine what is best for animal welfare, conservation, and education?

While Ringling Brothers may be protecting its investment in elephants, they are at the same time providing/maintaining the same means of conservation as many zoos. There is a big debate regarding economics and conservation. How far are we willing to go with conservation and a free-market economy? And what is or isn't ethical?
 
You are certainly not coming across as an animal rights wacko. And Ringling Brothers and other circuses may not be alone. There are many zoos out there that are just the same - public ones too. I've seen zoos that promote their conservation efforts of one-time contributions they made several years ago as if the zoo is annually and actively still participating in the project. Are zoos "green-washing" their visitors as well? Just to promote themselves as a center of conservation? Maybe zoos need a conservation rating, just as many non-profits are rated on their revenue/expenses? That could certainly scare the AZA.

And your opinions of circuses are your own. But generally circus elephants are healthier than zoo elephants. And even though many may think the circus life for an elephant is cruel, have any of us asked an elephant if they enjoy it or not? What about birds that are pinioned or have their wings clipped? Do any of us really know how animals think about captivity?

I have a dog that loves traveling and spending time in his crate. But how can i compare a dog to an elephant? How can i compare a human to an elephant? When and how can we determine what is best for animal welfare, conservation, and education?

While Ringling Brothers may be protecting its investment in elephants, they are at the same time providing/maintaining the same means of conservation as many zoos. There is a big debate regarding economics and conservation. How far are we willing to go with conservation and a free-market economy? And what is or isn't ethical?


You are asking excellent and difficult questions about zoos and conservation. I think that you are right that much of what zoos call conservation is possibly not meaningful. I think that your idea of a conservation rating is intriguing.

Are circus elephants empirically healthier than zoo elephants? I don't know that the life of circus elephants is "cruel", but I think that having elephants perform tricks that have no relation to their natural behavior is outdated. There is obviously a history of elephants and humans working together that the circus world perhaps replicates. Whether this is a relationship that is appropriate to continue is something that public opinion through support (or not) of circuses will decide. Empirically many communities are banning circus elephants or at least talking about it. This doesn't seem to be happening with zoo elephants, although there are individuals and some groups that certainly want that to happen (e.g., the seemingly endless law suits against the LA Zoo elephant exhibit).
 
Some would argue that zoos and circuses are both in the entertainment business

It's funny how the word 'entertainment' is always used in a derogatory way when associated with zoos yet has positive connotations when used in association with other industries e.g. film. For this reason I like to make a distinction between 'entertainment' and 'recreation'; while circuses are very much entertainment, zoos I feel are more about recreation. Both may be part of the leisure industry but they are subtly different.
 
I would be curious to know how many communities actually ban circus elephants or is the ban just a collective agreement by elected officials of a community who have been pressed by individuals with an agenda that live outside of the community? There have also been bans of any elephant (including zoos) from cities such as San Francisco and Chicago. However those bans are not complete - because they require that a large amount of space be allocated for elephants if a facility wishes to exhibit/house them.

I don't know of any studies done to prove that circus elephants are generally healthier than zoo elephants. I have been told by many elephant managers and keepers that this is the case from their experience.

While all trained elephant behaviors may not be natural, many have husbandry applications and further entertainment value as well. But if we are also worried about elephants being made to do unnatural tricks - then is there cause for alarm of all the unnatural behaviors being required of animals at various zoos. Many of these behaviors that keepers and managers consider essential for husbandry reasons? Or are we only concerned with unnatural behaviors that are meant to entertain people?

What about other animal shows in zoos? When not on show, they often kept in small wire and wooden/metal cages and do not get to experience the multi-million dollar habitats that other zoos animals live in. Are we concerned about this as well?

Its easy to criticize circuses because they are a relic of the past striving to compete with every other entertainment available these days. Their history is associated with plenty of filth, abuse, and exploitation of both people and animals. Not the professional production that Field Entertainment puts on every year. Circuses have also had a recently long history with organizations such as PETA - there is a lot of publicity built up against them. Not to say there isn't room for improvement, but if we are going to criticize circuses and say that zoos aren't worthy of the same criticism - then are we asking the right questions?
 
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gerenuk;507721[/QUOTE said:
What about shows in zoos? When not on show, they often kept in small wire and wooden/metal cages and do not get to experience the multi-million dollar habitats that other zoos animals live in. Are we concerned about this as well?

Its easy to criticize circuses because they are a relic of the past striving to compete with every other entertainment available these days. Their history is associated with plenty of filth, abuse, and exploitation of both people and animals. Not the professional production that Field Entertainment puts on every year. Circuses have also had a recently long history with organizations such as PETA - there is a lot of publicity built up against them. Not to say there isn't room for improvement, but if we are going to criticize circuses and say that zoos aren't worthy of the same criticism - then are we asking the right questions?

Are there any serious zoos still doing elephant shows? San Diego shut their's down at the Safari Park when the Asian eles moved to the zoo and they said from now on that they "just wanted the elephants to be elephants". Are zoo elephants really kept in "small wire and wooden/metal cages" most of the time? My understanding is that most of the time they are out in their habitats, even at night. For zoos in northern areas then eles being confined for long periods due to weather is an issue of course, which is presumably why several northern zoos have/are ending their elephant holding (Detroit, Toronto, Henry Vilas Zoo, etc.).

I think that zoos have undergone much criticism and have responded by rethinking how they exhibit elephants, hence the massive elephant exhibit building binge in zoos that want elephants and the closure of elephant exhibits at zoos that no longer can afford modern elephant husbandry.

Are there any circuses that have built a meaningful conservation message into their elephant shows? I would be really interested if there are. There are some circuses that have gone elephant free (e.g., Circus Vargas), so I guess that there has been some response to public criticism.

My underlying critique of circuses is that they no longer reflect what we now know about elephants, i.e. that they are highly intelligent animals with intricate societies that perhaps resemble ours more than any other non-primate species. For many people this takes the fun out of watching them do headstands and riding giant tricycles. Of course the same argument is made for why chimps should not be used to make commercials and films, and that isn't going to end any time soon.

Circuses do not make any effort to educate people about real elephant natural history or conservation (e.g., our above exchanges about the Feld "Elephant Conservation Center"). Obviously this is not why people go to the circus so I would not expect that they would.
 
So far we've been dealing with elephants.

Does anybody have an opinion/information about how lions and tigers are different in zoos vs. circuses? This is pretty much an unknown subject to me, so would like to learn what folks here know, think, opine about this subject.
 
My apologizes David, regarding shows in zoos, I was generalizing about any animal show in a zoo. Looking back at my posting I failed to mention that specifically.

Should we regard elephants with thoughtful activism without showing respect to other animals?
 
This same topic has already bought strong discussion on earlier threads and it seems that differences of opinion will remain. In Latin america nearly all circuses have elephants. Mistreatment of elephants is very widespread. Elephants that have confiscated from circuses have suffered from abuse and are sent to zoos where they still display aggresive or neurotic behavior. There are animals of this kind in mexico, Brazil, and argentina, maybe in other countries too. Bolivia banned all circus acts with non domesticated species, as have Rio de janiero and sao paulo.In mexico city a similar attempt failed. Ringling bros. is only one example, circuses in the US are heavily regulated. But in other parts of the world circus animals are not as protected.
 
I'll start off by saying that I haven't attended a circus with animal acts besides horses in about a decade and I have no first-hand knowledge of the animal care practices of any circus. Therefore, I speak based on assumptions and knowledge of animal care in general. If you have this kind of knowledge or a reliable source, please correct me where I go astray. There's also the caveat that when I say zoo I mean specifically good zoos, not the roadside attractions or the facilities where animals are starving to death.

The most obvious problem with circuses is that they provide nothing close to a "normal" life for their cats. Of course, a zoo is far from a natural environment but zoos do attempt to replicate natural conditions. Circus cats have no opportunity to establish territories or even have the comfort of a familiar environment, unless you count whatever vehicle they're being transported around the country in. Zoos encourage wild behaviors in their animals, which can in fact be very entertaining for guests but also help to keep the animals mentally and physically engaged. Also in circuses, I've seen images of (typically solitary) tigers performing and housed in large groups and I highly doubt (highly social) lions are given the chance to form and maintain prides.

In circuses trained behaviors tend to show off how powerful and "majestic" cats are, and by association how powerful the trainers are to be dominant over these ferocious beasts. There are plenty of videos out there showcasing circus' "training techniques" involving chains and whips, which have long since been phased out in zoos. Zoos of course do train unnatural behaviors but they generally serve some purpose besides, "Wouldn't it be cool/cute/funny if the tiger did this."

From this point on, this is mostly conjecture.
I have seen pictures of circus cats, especially tigers, who are pretty grossly overweight. This could be for a number of reasons, such as lack of exercise or inadequate nutrition. Another option is that the trainers intentionally overfeed their cats, a practice which is believed to make them more docile. To the same purpose, cats used for those photo booths that used to always be a feature at fairs when I was younger are often kept "tame" by the repeated use of sedatives. It wouldn't surprise me if some circuses also used drugs to control their cats.

And to end on a personal frustration which others may or may not share, I disagree with direct handling of any big cats. From the MGM Grand and Siegfried & Roy in Las Vegas to circuses around the world we've seen trainers attacked by the animals they supposedly have such a deep, magical bond with. This only supports the claims of some that these animals are overly aggressive and not worth saving, besides the possible tragic decision of euthanizing the animal for doing nothing more than reacting to its situation. Of course, attacks are relatively rare considering how much time trainers spend with the cats but that's a sort of problem within itself. Espousing the idea that wild animals can be tamed or even domesticated through contact with humans only leads to more people believing that they can bring a lion or a tiger into their homes and make them pets. Very few private individuals have the money, space, knowledge, and skills to properly confine and care for these types of animals and even those who do probably shouldn't, considering the shadiness of facilities that breed animals for the pet trade or even possibly import them from the wild.
 
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