Zooplantman
Well-Known Member
I quite agree with your point (and others') that these animals prefer cover over anything. Yet too often they are given exposed yards.
What are your 'must see' recommendations for 2008 and why?
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johnstoni
Well-Known Member
I mean, planned planted space is amazing, even with primates there are some fantastic examples. I even think London will have a fantastic exhibit in a few years. Only there's that lovely area of grass completely covered by trees where the old gibbon cages used to be, and before I saw any photos of the building site, I really hoped Gorilla Kingdom would stretch this far....it certainly would have put it on a par with Apenheul.
It's just that mentality that seems to persist among those collections with great apes where a bare piece of land to be planted up seems preferable to an already natural growth of vegetation to be modified for habitation. I think a combination of the two, especially for Gorillas, would bring out in behavioural terms a totally different group of animals.
It's just that mentality that seems to persist among those collections with great apes where a bare piece of land to be planted up seems preferable to an already natural growth of vegetation to be modified for habitation. I think a combination of the two, especially for Gorillas, would bring out in behavioural terms a totally different group of animals.
This is wall of some low service building, which has a sort of overhanging mesh to prevent gorillas from climbing on it.
The dead tree trunk in the centre is typical example of "how old oak in ape exhibit ends".
Actually, Arnhem originally had dense cover of trees, but chimps over several years killed them one by one, except the two which were hotwired.
Leipzig new(ish) Pongoland is similar story - when I last time been there, most old trees in orangutan exhibit had visibly bare branches. I suppose within a few years curators will choose - either electric wire or bare dead trunks. Berlin zoo had similar pathetic dead trunks in lion-tailed macaques.
The thing is, that although some individual apes don't damage trees, you cannot count on it. And (besides inherent problem that zoos either has old trees or not - they take decades to grow) zoos still have to invent some new tricks to achieve realistic forest exhibit for great apres or most monkeys.
About gorillas - I heard from Howletts employees, that gorillas simply don't like walking on grass, they prefer hay or other soft material. I wonder if somebody can tell more?
I also noticed that male gorillas like to sit backing something hard (exactly like humans, really), and with good view of all exhibit. So probably you can actually design exhibit so silverback will give fantastic views.
Other thing which I think is important but usually overlooked is locomotion mode of different primates. Short - each primates uses only part of branches avialable. Apenheul got it right - orangutans have vertical swinging ropes, ruffed lemurs have horizontal ladders, sifakas have thin vertical trunks within jumping distances. Many zoos overlook it - e.g. Duisburg is infamous of giving gorillas thick vertical logs which are rarely used.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
I remember John Aspinall saying publicly that he would never bow to public pressure and put his gorillas on grass.....and then built the grass bachelor 'paddocks' short after this at Port Lympne. Certainly the reasoning at Howletts and Port Lympne is that the deep layer of slowly fermenting straw which isn't changed for long periods (even a couple of years?) mimcs the kind of ground cover the apes would experience in the wild, as well as being an excellent substrate to scatterfeed seeds into. I have never seen captive gorillas as relaxed and socially cohesive as those kept in large cages on straw in this way, ironically these are some of the least aesthetically-pleasing ape exhibits if you don't stop long enough to really watch the gorillas. Port lympne tried to remedy this with the last gorilla house they built for the family group by installing glass windows, with no stand-off barrier, along the entire length of the large cage, as a result many (especially male) visitors were charged at by either the silverback or one of the young males in the group, whereas I have never experienced this at Howletts or Chessington.
1. Grass- I don't know how true that is. Its certainly true for Gorillas which have grown up on other surfaces and not seen grass before- they don't like it to start with but do get used to it. Why did they give all the Port Lympne gorillas large grass paddocks if they knew this was so?
2. Gorillas, including silverbacks, often sit with their backs against walls etc. But I think this may have more to do with a strog desire for cover. e.g. when shut outside in an open enclosure, sitting against a wall gives the animal some feeling of security. I don't think it is because they like to see the view from that position.
1. Aspinall was notoriously fickle like that, especially in his latter years..
2. I don't know if its the straw bedding, or the large multi-aged groups (or a combination of both) that make the Howletts gorilla groups so relaxed and socially cohesive. Interestingly, Chessington's group is similar in size , composition and housing and they are a similarly relaxed and cohesive group(well they are normally when there is a male in the group)- I sometimes think of them as almost an offshoot of the Howletts groups.
3. I'm wondering if the aggressive behaviour you mention at Port Lympne- which I've seen too- is partly because 'Djala' is a rather nervous male- he hates childrenin particular, because of illtreatment by them as a baby- so perhaps he was the least suitable of their males for this enclosure with the glass viewing windows and closer access by the public.
4. At Howletts 'Kouillou' will sometimes 'charge' the public and I once saw him display at the vet which was very impressive. One of the young males 'Bonz' (now an adult in the PL bachelor group) used to slam the mesh very aggressively and he still does this as an adult.
just thinking- you mentioned not seeing a male gorilla charging at Chessington. Well, Kumba is getting pretty old now and so he's pretty placid- but if/when they get a new young male shortly (as planned) I imagine he's likely to really hit those glass viewing panels as seeing people standing up close behind glass like that will be a completely new experience for him.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
hopefully he won't spend too long in that enclosure, and the new exhibit will not make some of the common mistakes we see with gorilla exhibits. Are the plans up yet?
I think it was a superb facility before they tried to theme it out as 'trail of the kings' with all that rockwork and glass panels. For a period, when it was a roomy, Howletts-style cage and the gorillas had been given the chimpanzee section of this structure as well, it was a fantastic enclosure for this species.
I think it was a superb facility before they tried to theme it out as 'trail of the kings' with all that rockwork and glass panels. For a period, when it was a roomy, Howletts-style cage and the gorillas had been given the chimpanzee section of this structure as well, it was a fantastic enclosure for this species.
I tend to agree the rockwork and viewing windows in Chessington's enclosure are rather naff- though the windows do make photography possible... I'm unable as yet to find out if they have made any improvements to this enclosure since last year's criticism (they were threatened with having their license revoked if they didn't)- but getting any news from there in the off season is virtually impossible.
The new male 'Damisi' is supposed to join the group from Paignton but there has been some sort of holdup with his transfer. I just know a new spirited eleven year old male will whack that glass....
I've seen no plans for the proposed enclosure on a new site yet...
The new male 'Damisi' is supposed to join the group from Paignton but there has been some sort of holdup with his transfer. I just know a new spirited eleven year old male will whack that glass....
I've seen no plans for the proposed enclosure on a new site yet...
I think the windows actually gave them a fraction more space as they are built outwards of the original cage front. Also the rockwork area does provide a bit of topography though its very unnatural-looking. Hopefully discussions on the merits or otherwise of this very 'tired' enclosure will become redundant if(that's if!!) they do build a completely new one.
Have you ever seen the inside dens?- they are tiny as they were originally designed for about three gorillas.... not a group of ten as they have now.
Have you ever seen the inside dens?- they are tiny as they were originally designed for about three gorillas.... not a group of ten as they have now.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
I haven't really noticed the dens but that wouldn't surprise me as the actual structure of the enclosure has never changed. The welfare concerns of late I imagine spring from the fact that Kumba was separated from the main group, was he shut in one of these dens or is the outdoor area divided now?
You won't notice the dens as they are hidden around the back. Originally there was a path for the public to walk past them and look through glass viewing windows- but it was shut off very many years ago. As you said, basically except for the addition of what was the chimps area as a sort of covered 'dayroom', the enclosure is unchanged from when it was built.
Last time I went, Kumba(who is now kept with his old partner Baffia) was shut into the 'dayroom'/old chimp area and the rest of the group were out on display. About 3.00p.m. the group were fed in the dens and Kumba and Baffia let out to use the main enclosure for an hour. Then they were put back and the group released on show again. I don't know if this regime is still in play, or if any alterations have been made before the new male arrives(I believe some work may have been done but I have yet to find out what..)
The original critisism was more about the generally poor state of the enclosure and 'overcrowding'* since the group has grown so successfully. Apparently two years ago the zoo was asked to make improvements to the enclosure but nothing happened- this failure caused the threat of 'license to be revoked' last spring- around the time of Gorilla Kingdom opening at nearby ZSL. At the same time Kumba/Baffia having being seperated exacerbated the situation as it caused 'timeshare' of the enclosure. Chessington published a statement on their website about this critisism but it said nothing about making any improvements- only about the future intention to build a new enclosure.
* 'overcrowding' - I don't think that is particularly valid. The newest 'young' group at Howlett's, headed by 'Djanghou' lived (and may still do so) in the original run of Gorilla cages. Though he has six females and several young, it actually has less space than the Chessington cage- but because its Howletts, no critisism is made.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
How does the licensing process work? Is it at the discretion of each local authority? Or are there national guidelines for each species that must be met? I often wonder how some terrible establishments continue in the UK while others with a far better level of husbandry can be threatened with having their licence revoked?
I don't really know much about it. I believe in Chessington's case it was the local council who have the power to revoke their license( I presume that's to run a zoo rather than just the keeping of gorillas...) But exactly what their criteria are I don't know- although we all know Chessington's setup generally with a joint zoo and amusement park isn't ideal, their animals are mostly well housed and all are professionally looked after. I don't think the Gorilla cage is really that bad either(although it does need replacing)l and no one can deny its been the Uk's most successful group after the Howlett's/Port Lympne groups.
You're the first(other) forum member I've come across who seems familiar with the gorilla set up at Chessington....
The cage hasn't altered basically(although there may have been some recent changes) since 'Trail of the Kings' was brought in, except for the addition of the viewing area & windows as discussed. At the same time visitor access around the sides of the enclosure was also blocked off - giving the gorillas more privacy from people than they'd had before.
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