What goes into deciding a phase-out?

[iloveyourzoos]

Thanks so much @Aardwolf ! Your examples really helped me get a clearer sense of where those lines were. I'm guessing that part of my confusion may have been reading what various posters hope or wish the programs might be, versus what they actually are able to enforce in practice.

Now, there are rules for the compliance WITHIN the SSP - if your zoo doesn't follow the recommendations - try to breed this animal, transfer this animal, etc - then the SSP and TAG may play hardball (well, a little harder). They may decide not to work with you, not to send you additional animals in the future (assuming you own the animals at your zoo, not much can be done about that), or things like that. Also, whenever a zoo is up for re-accreditation, AZA sends out an email asking if other zoos/program leaders have any objections or concerns about that zoo's conduct, and if so to submit their experiences.

What's interesting is that the RCPs talk so much about the SSPs -- especially when it comes to the space concerns -- that to an outside observer like me it would almost seem like non-compliance with an RCP is itself a form of not complying with the SSP, especially where the reason for the phase outs are to make room for program approved species. But I guess since holding space is usually a priority for these, playing hardball for how other space is used would end up being counterproductive.

I did have a brief image of you responding to the re-accreditation email with a list of all the facebook posts that a zoo has done outside the approved programs. But of course, that too wouldn't really solve the problem, since losing accreditation might backfire and mean they might not be able to hold any of the animals you'd want them to.

 

[15399]

seen yet another zoo cheerfully post pictures of one of several very common, not-managed species that is a direct competitor with my managed species for space.

Let me guess: ringed teal, mandarin duck, and white-faced whistling duck?

 

[Aardwolf]

Let me guess: ringed teal, mandarin duck, and white-faced whistling duck?

I call them the terrible three

 

[Aardwolf]

Thanks so much @Aardwolf ! Your examples really helped me get a clearer sense of where those lines were. I'm guessing that part of my confusion may have been reading what various posters hope or wish the programs might be, versus what they actually are able to enforce in practice.



What's interesting is that the RCPs talk so much about the SSPs -- especially when it comes to the space concerns -- that to an outside observer like me it would almost seem like non-compliance with an RCP is itself a form of not complying with the SSP, especially where the reason for the phase outs are to make room for program approved species. But I guess since holding space is usually a priority for these, playing hardball for how other space is used would end up being counterproductive.

I did have a brief image of you responding to the re-accreditation email with a list of all the facebook posts that a zoo has done outside the approved programs. But of course, that too wouldn't really solve the problem, since losing accreditation might backfire and mean they might not be able to hold any of the animals you'd want them to.

Think of it like this - you can't be forced to participate in the SSP, but if you do choose to participate, you have to comply with the SSP*

*Reasonable exceptions apply, of course - the SSP can tell you to ship an animal to another zoo, and you may say that you can't for various reasons, such as the animal being elderly and at risk if it were to go on a long transfer

 

[15399]

I call them the terrible three

The popularity of mandarin ducks in particular confuses me. Despite ringed teals being possibly the most boring duck species ever in my opinion, I can understand the appeal to ringed teals and white-faced whistling ducks for South American rainforests, since to the best of my knowledge the only tropical America waterfowl managed by the AZA is southern screamer, but for mandarin ducks they fill the same geographic niche as scaly-sided mergansers, swan geese, and a number of other species that could be prioritized.

Granted, while I'd love to see some zoos switch from the "terrible three" to other waterfowl, I'm just happy to see waterfowl in zoos to begin with. At Roger Williams Park Zoo, the whistling ducks and ringed teal were phased out in recent years, but now the zoo completely lacks Anseriformes representation. If only they'd add some ducks to the flamingo exhibit or something.

 

[Enzo]

Lack of interest can be caused by a lot of factors. A non-exhaustive list includes:

• The high cost of keeping (and feeding) a particular species.
• A species generally not breeding well in captivity.
• A species being a relatively poor exhibit animal- think very shy/seclusive species, fossorial species that live their entire lives underground, etc.
• Limited space in a zoo. As zoos focus on improving welfare and having larger homes for species, they inevitably need to make tough choices as to what species they will stay committed to.
• Difficulty acquiring new individuals of a particular species.
• A species filling the same niche as another species that, for whatever reason, is easier to manage and/or has stronger exhibit/education/conservation value.

While there are certain species (particularly a few species of old world monkeys) that I am rather critical of the lack of AZA interest and support for, overall I will say that there are normally extremely good reasons for a phase out, and the decisions aren't made lightly.

I will have to agree with Neil here.
Unfortunately, the main factor behind a phase-out from Brazilians zoos is definitely the difficulty to acquire new individual of a particular species. This has happened with many animals, including antelope such as lowland nyala.

 

[Great Argus]

The popularity of mandarin ducks in particular confuses me.

They're colorful, hardy, showy, and readily available - attractive species at low cost.

since to the best of my knowledge the only tropical America waterfowl managed by the AZA is southern screamer,

Orinoco Goose is another, I think West Indian Whistling Duck has been downgraded.

 

[15399]

Orinoco Goose is another, I think West Indian Whistling Duck has been downgraded.

I forgot about Orinoco goose. Most of the other South American species I am aware of being recommended by the AZA are not tropical (e.g., Puna teals, coscoroba, Andean geese, etc.)

 

[birdsandbats]

The popularity of mandarin ducks in particular confuses me. Despite ringed teals being possibly the most boring duck species ever in my opinion, I can understand the appeal to ringed teals and white-faced whistling ducks for South American rainforests, since to the best of my knowledge the only tropical America waterfowl managed by the AZA is southern screamer, but for mandarin ducks they fill the same geographic niche as scaly-sided mergansers, swan geese, and a number of other species that could be prioritized.

Granted, while I'd love to see some zoos switch from the "terrible three" to other waterfowl, I'm just happy to see waterfowl in zoos to begin with. At Roger Williams Park Zoo, the whistling ducks and ringed teal were phased out in recent years, but now the zoo completely lacks Anseriformes representation. If only they'd add some ducks to the flamingo exhibit or something.

Because Mandarin Ducks are epic (and very easy to obtain).

 

[Torgos]

The popularity of mandarin ducks in particular confuses me. Despite ringed teals being possibly the most boring duck species ever in my opinion, I can understand the appeal to ringed teals and white-faced whistling ducks for South American rainforests, since to the best of my knowledge the only tropical America waterfowl managed by the AZA is southern screamer, but for mandarin ducks they fill the same geographic niche as scaly-sided mergansers, swan geese, and a number of other species that could be prioritized.

Granted, while I'd love to see some zoos switch from the "terrible three" to other waterfowl, I'm just happy to see waterfowl in zoos to begin with. At Roger Williams Park Zoo, the whistling ducks and ringed teal were phased out in recent years, but now the zoo completely lacks Anseriformes representation. If only they'd add some ducks to the flamingo exhibit or something.

C'mon buddy, your taste sucks. Sorry. Not arguable. Ringed teal are freaking adorable, their wings whistle when they fly, the males are great dads and never lose their color, they are friendly, great display, play nice with everyone, confiding, charming, exquisite, lovely call. The ducklings are positively edible in their cuteness. Ohhhh Neil Chace, we gotta get you on a duck learning curve.

 

[15399]

C'mon buddy, your taste sucks. Sorry. Not arguable. Ringed teal are freaking adorable, their wings whistle when they fly, the males are great dads and never lose their color, they are friendly, great display, play nice with everyone, confiding, charming, exquisite, lovely call. The ducklings are positively edible in their cuteness. Ohhhh Neil Chace, we gotta get you on a duck learning curve.

Surely it is possible for people to disagree in their opinions on duck species, no? You can have all the ringed teals you want, but any day of the week I'd absolutely take pygmy geese, Philippine ducks, pintails, or any of the sea ducks over ringed teals.

 

[Torgos]

Surely it is possible for people to disagree in their opinions on duck species, no? You can have all the ringed teals you want, but any day of the week I'd absolutely take pygmy geese, Philippine ducks, pintails, or any of the sea ducks over ringed teals.

Of course we can disagree and based on your pygmy geese/seaducks response you actually have excellent partial taste. Pintails and Phillipines, not so much. But still ringed teal are unarguably dreamy. You'll tell me in a minute that you love elephants.

 

[TinoPup]

Surely it is possible for people to disagree in their opinions on duck species, no? You can have all the ringed teals you want, but any day of the week I'd absolutely take pygmy geese, Philippine ducks, pintails, or any of the sea ducks over ringed teals.

I'd take those over ringed teals, but I'll take ringed teals 100% over mandarin drakes.

 

[15399]

Pintails and Phillipines, not so much

May I ask what you dislike about pintails and Philippine ducks?

You'll tell me in a minute that you love elephants

I like elephants, but I wouldn't say I love elephants. I prefer most primates, a lot of birds, and quite a few other animals over elephants though.

 

[JVM]

I'm the one who loves elephants, although it doesn't show much on zoochat.

Frankly, I would love to see teals and ducks with a zoochatter in tow, I'm sure they/any of you would help me better appreciate those animals than I do on my own... I certainly enjoy them but I'm not the best at appreciating the individual species' differences.

 

[Torgos]

May I ask what you dislike about pintails and Philippine ducks?


I like elephants, but I wouldn't say I love elephants. I prefer most primates, a lot of birds, and quite a few other animals over elephants though.

Pintails and Philippines - I don't dislike them but to me they are a bit dull behaviorally. Northern pintail are stunning, lovely display call, great displaying in a group. And then they molt, turn brown and silent and leave their women to do all the work of rearing. It's as arbitrary as your feelings for ringed teal and my prejudice is completely without justifiable foundation But Sir Peter Scott adored pintail and named his daughter Dafila in their honor - Dafila was the genus name at the time.
I based the elephant comment on your photo!