That's good to hear at least. Measured it on google earth.
What is the best zoo in new england
- Thread starter Dyl0526
- Start date
That's good to hear at least. Measured it on google earth.
@ThylacineAlive most of what you stated is personal preference, i.e. baby primates, parrot sticks and elephant rides. As someone in the business, I have no problem with this, sentimentality aside. But stating, for example, elephants were abused there is simply not true. One could argue, and reasonably, Bronx has had a much worse reputation with elephants, rides do not equal abuse, that pure ignorance. Regarding the felids, only the tigers I can not confirm where they come from. The Sika are formosans but not sure about squirrel monkeys. And they do parcitipate in SSPs. As for conservation, I can find out. I am aware you can buy Aldabras from private sector, what does that have to do with anything?
not gonna lie didn’t know u could measure stuff on google earth lol
The easiest thing to do is make a transparent shape, then copy it and there are online tools that will calculate the area.
Elephant rides might not automatically mean abuse, but using bull hooks and electric shocks definitely does. Also, transporting elephants long distances every year, while it might not technically be considered abuse, is certainly overly stressful on the animals. Bronx Zoo on the other hand, is in a similar situation to Buttonwood. Both zoos have long acknowledged that they are unhappy with their current elephant situation, and are phasing out the species when the current ones die.
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Basic animal welfare is now a personal preference? Making sure animals cannot escape their enclosure is a personal preference? Making sure birds are allowed to be flighted is a personal preference? Are there any rules on zoos you believe in, or should it all be voluntary? Elephant rides are an outdated practice, and while you defend it the vast majority of folks on this site would not. The elephants Southwick used for years were TB positive, and the zoo still used them for encounters and rides. Hawthorn was so bad that the USDA, who leaves animals in bad situations often, seized them.
I don't expect you to reply. You seem to ignore my posts and the facts I laid out because they are inconvenient to your narrative.
No... Those things are not personal preference. As someone apparently in the industry, you should know that these things are objectively bad for the animals the way they are treated. Would you care to provide some evidence that suggests this husbandry is not bad for the animals? @nczoofan already covered the elephant abuse so I refer you to that post. You could argue that for Bronx. You'd be wrong but you could argue it
That subject has been covered at length on the forum as well, and Bronx's animals have never been--or even claimed to be--subject to the plethora of problems the Southwick rented animals have. So...where do Southwicks animals come from then? I highly doubt their sika are Formosan, that taxa is represented by only 0.3 animals left at the Bronx. Southwick's signage for them even lists their native range as Japan so I'd have to see some real solid evidence before believing that claim. Which SSPs does Southwick contribute to? I wouldn't be surprised if they do, Wildlife World even participates in some.~Thylo
@nczoofan dont know where your info comes from but once again your elephant info is way off. The Johnsons, Hamblin, Dhemery and Tesch never were associated with Hawthorn and that goes back to at least the mid 90s. So your wrong there.
Southwicks chimps are acclimated to the NE weather and have access outside when its 40 or above. Never locked out. There are some great pictures of them exploring in the snow. Same with the aforementioned species that you gave square footage of holding areas. So theres that. Ironically Southwick has never done cub photos that I'm aware of, and Peter probably said that, but ZAA has banned that for some time now. I know the breed service monkeys in the past but haven't recently. And as mentioned those lemur enclosures dont exist, and considering the blue pond is just for a couple native pond turtles and the other is just typical reptile housing I dont see how that's so horrible
Southwicks chimps are acclimated to the NE weather and have access outside when its 40 or above. Never locked out. There are some great pictures of them exploring in the snow. Same with the aforementioned species that you gave square footage of holding areas. So theres that. Ironically Southwick has never done cub photos that I'm aware of, and Peter probably said that, but ZAA has banned that for some time now. I know the breed service monkeys in the past but haven't recently. And as mentioned those lemur enclosures dont exist, and considering the blue pond is just for a couple native pond turtles and the other is just typical reptile housing I dont see how that's so horrible
Just to weigh in. I think its pretty clear the competition is basically between RWPZ and Southwicks. Now here's the thing. RWPZ would take the cake without question if we are talking overall "zoo quality". Good layout, good variety, nice habitats, AZA accreditation, and what I think tips them over the edge to this day are the African Elephants. When Southwicks still had their elephants it was the great equalizer. They were the undisputed kings of New England since they had all the big ticket animals of the other local zoos (Elephants, Tigers, Lions, Apes, Giraffes, Zebra, etc.) with the added bonus of things like Rhinos, and just sheer animal quantity. Now without the elephants RWPZ kinda got a boost as being the only "major zoo" in this competition (buttonwood not really counting in my opinion). Say you weren't even counting elephants as a big option, the actual quality of RWPZ overall makes it ever so slightly better than Southwicks to take the title of "best". Now I will say RWPZ of 2005 (featuring penguins, polar bears, kangaroos, wild dogs, etc.) would easily beat modern day southwicks. But unfortunately the animal library of Southwicks, elephants aside, is still better than RWPZ. The last point I want to make and this has been previously stated by other members, but Southwicks isn't known for quality. Its a farm. RWPZ is a zoo. Southwicks is a farm that breeds animals, has the ability to interact with animals regularly (deer forest, camel rides, the previously mentioned elephant rides that put all 3 of their elephants in the grave) and the pretty regular importation of things like white tigers. They are a spectacle zoo, not one with a good moral compass if that is a thing you care about when going. They aren't horrible by any means, but taking a quick look at their pretty recent history, you see repeated cases of outdated or improper zoo practices. When I grew up the chimpanzees were kept in what are now the aviary cages. They then got a bigger habitat which to this day just isn't really an appropriate chimpanzee enclosure. The rhinos were in a pen for many years the size of a small yard until their elephants (in another small enclosure for their size mind you) died, and their big cats are always pacing. I don't want to demonize Southwicks since I love the zoo but RWPZ has just proved time and time again to be at minimum a well maintained, well managed zoo. I don't agree with all their money decisions but when I look at the zoos future I see RWPZ striving to do whats best for the zoo as a whole, meet guest expectations and ensure their animals get the best care. Meanwhile I only expect to see southwicks importing more exotic species for the sake of having them, and breeding so they can bank on spectacle. Both zoos run their zoos with their philosophies in mind appropriately but RWPZ just has the much better moral compass at heart.
One other issue with Southwicks is the multiple times there were issues with a deer attacking people. If that happened at any of the other zoos, the unrestricted contact with deer would have ended. At Capron Park Zoo, for instance, a red-crested Turaco was removed from the Rainforest simply for landing on the heads of visitors on a few occasions. The zoo removed the animal because they were concerned it MIGHT cause a problem. If Southwicks cared about its safety and husbandry, the deer forest would have been seriously reconsidered.
So Southwicks keeps its animals outside around the clock? Because most zoos can't keep their dangerous animals outside overnight. Also, pictures of an animal in the snow, tell nothing about where the animal spends most of its time. Southwick does not do cub photos correct, but their director repeatedly supported the practice, which is widespread at many other institutions. The reptile exhibits are just adequate, never said they were animal abuse or anything. But should the "best zoo in New England" meet so low a standard? And now you admit the zoo bred service monkeys, even if the practice recently ended its been pretty universally acknowledged as a problematic practice for decades.
Here is some information on their elephants. From an actual cited source, which you never provide. Elephants often from Hawthorn Corporation. Elephants that had TB results hidden while repeatedly interacting with the public. Elephants in the small rhino barn I previously cited.
Billie
Southwick's makes list of worst zoos for elephants
Another Unexplained Elephant Death: Dondi Dies at Massachusetts Southwick's Zoo - An Animal Rights Article from all-creatures.org (From an AR org, but the text is simply a complaint filed at the USDA, who has penalties for lying)
@Neil chace I've worked for 3 AZA and 3 ZAA institute's most notably with megafauna. I've seen what works and what doesn't. Flightless birds aren't any less healthy or stimulated than flighted ones. Baby primates being able to explore beyond their exhibit is more enriching. Elephant rides provide much needed exercise considering how obese the population is in this country....looking at you Houston. I've dealt with ***hole geniuses and very nice bozos I wouldnt trust with a gold fish. I've seen the rise of ZAA standards and have seen huge blemishes of the AZA and vice versa. No one has to agree with me and, being from Boston, I like a good argument. But I speak from experience not being the general public
Judy the elephant, who was used for rides, previously had gone on a rampage at an event. And they still used her for rides? And now they partner with Have Trunk Will Travel, which is not exactly known for its welfare record.
"Debbie and Judy, two Asian elephants leased by the Hawthorn Corporation to Circus Vazquez, rampaged throughout a church. Two church members were nearly trampled, and children had to be quickly ushered to safety. The elephants crashed into the church through a glass window, broke and buckled walls and door frames, and knocked a car 15 feet, causing an estimated $75,000 in damages. The elephants sustained cuts. Debbie had rampaged twice before. (See July 10, 1995/Queens, New York, and May 19, 1995/Hanover, Pennsylvania.)"
Sounds Safe.
Judy, an Asian elephant at Chris Hamblen
"Debbie and Judy, two Asian elephants leased by the Hawthorn Corporation to Circus Vazquez, rampaged throughout a church. Two church members were nearly trampled, and children had to be quickly ushered to safety. The elephants crashed into the church through a glass window, broke and buckled walls and door frames, and knocked a car 15 feet, causing an estimated $75,000 in damages. The elephants sustained cuts. Debbie had rampaged twice before. (See July 10, 1995/Queens, New York, and May 19, 1995/Hanover, Pennsylvania.)"
Sounds Safe.
Judy, an Asian elephant at Chris Hamblen
You don't know what you are talking about. The NC Zoo has one of the most progressive elephant programs of any in this nation. Its much more hands-off than most zoos, but that allows "elephants to be elephants." The bull elephants are not kept alone, almost always mixed with females. I have seen breeding happen at the zoo, it's just not been successful. Maybe stick to what you know. Batir the youngest elephant is shown below looks fat to me. Maybe she needs a few rides around the zoo to "fix" her. But this is off-topic, and an obvious pivot.
Heres half their "hefty" herd:
@PSO 40degrees F is usually around where zoos allow their more tropical species to be let outside on occasion. I believe that is the minimum temperature that giraffes are allowed to be outside in following AZA guidelines. I don't see how this fact undermines the point of the housing being far too small, though, especially when NE weather regularly drops below 40degrees and the animals likely are still locked indoors at night. Also, no the chimps have not "acclimated" to NE weather 
The blue pond holds Japanese Pond Turtle fyi. Even if it was for "just a couple of native pond turtles" why would that suddenly mean it's okay that it's bad? And those are typical reptile housing for pet stores, not zoo display animals. Unfortunately many zoo's still house herps like that bts but that's criticized heavily here as well, and in some countries with far more progressive animal care standards than the US keeping animals like that is illegal.
Again, would love to see some quantifications for these claims
Baby primates being able to be completely separated from their mothers/troops, come into contact with the general public, and allowed to enter other animal habitats which could very easily get them trapped, injured, or killed with the parents not being able to do a thing about it is more enriching?
See, this and especially:
Newsflash, being in the industry (if you even are) does not automatically make you smarter or more informed than the rest of us, and it clearly doesn't give you any better knowledge into basic animal husbandry.
~Thylo
The blue pond holds Japanese Pond Turtle fyi. Even if it was for "just a couple of native pond turtles" why would that suddenly mean it's okay that it's bad? And those are typical reptile housing for pet stores, not zoo display animals. Unfortunately many zoo's still house herps like that bts but that's criticized heavily here as well, and in some countries with far more progressive animal care standards than the US keeping animals like that is illegal.Again, would love to see some quantifications for these claims
Baby primates being able to be completely separated from their mothers/troops, come into contact with the general public, and allowed to enter other animal habitats which could very easily get them trapped, injured, or killed with the parents not being able to do a thing about it is more enriching?
See, this and especially:
I think tells us all we need to know about your "experience".
Newsflash, being in the industry (if you even are) does not automatically make you smarter or more informed than the rest of us, and it clearly doesn't give you any better knowledge into basic animal husbandry.
~Thylo
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