What makes a major zoo?

[Panda_Fan]

While comparing, Toledo definitely wins in every category except for big cats and wolves. I’d say Brookfield’s cat row is worse. 5 small cat grottos compared to 2 habitats combined for tigers and 1 for cougars. While Toledo’s isn’t good by any means but when compared to Brookfield they are a lot better. As for the reptiles, they have no rarities and not a single good reptile house. All species are spread apart and all of the species are relatively common.

Yes, I do think that Toledo is a very good zoo and that it could win Brookfield in many categories, but I must say that a collection of reptiles isn't defined by the location of the species in the zoo or if the enclosures are good, that's exhibitry. Yes they don't have the rarest species and they might be common in zoos but that doesn't mean that the collection is bad, you could have a big collection of commonly kept reptiles and it would still be a great collection.

While comparing, Toledo definitely wins in every category except for big cats and wolves. I’d say Brookfield’s cat row is worse. 5 small cat grottos compared to 2 habitats combined for tigers and 1 for cougars.

This is a bit contradictory.

 

[USZOOfan42]

Yes, I do think that Toledo is a very good zoo and that it could win Brookfield in many categories, but I must say that a collection of reptiles isn't defined by the location of the species in the zoo or if the enclosures are good, that's exhibitry. Yes they don't have the rarest species and they might be common in zoos but that doesn't mean that the collection is bad, you could have a big collection of commonly kept reptiles and it would still be a great collection.

This is a bit contradictory.

Their collection is missing a big crocodilian, among many other things for herps. They have little to no amphibians and each species can be found at the next zoo, I don’t understand how common species can make a superior herp collection. As for the other post, both exhibits for big cats are bad. I just stated how I could understand the argument going for Brookfield. But the question is, have you visited Brookfield before?

 

[Panda_Fan]

Their collection is missing a big crocodilian, among many other things for herps. They have little to no amphibians and each species can be found at the next zoo, I don’t understand how common species can make a superior herp collection. As for the other post, both exhibits for big cats are bad. I just stated how I could understand the argument going for Brookfield. But the question is, have you visited Brookfield before?

For not having a species you can't just say that a collection is bad. You just dismissed the absence of lions at Toledo. Amphibians aren't reptiles. Having common species doesn't make a collection bad, I think that number and rarieties count, so as long as you have a good number of reptiles (even if they're common) I would say that the collection is good. And yes, I visited Brookfield in 2019.

 

[USZOOfan42]

For not having a species you can't just say that a collection is bad. You just dismissed the absence of lions at Toledo. Amphibians aren't reptiles. Having common species doesn't make a collection bad, I think that number and rarieties count, so as long as you have a good number of reptiles (even if they're common) I would say that the collection is good. And yes, I visited Brookfield in 2019.

Referring to a zoo to have a good herp collection but they don’t have a crocodilian is an issue. (Meaning larger croc, gharial or an alligator) When did I say amphibians are reptiles? I was referring to it as a “herp” collection as in herptiles. But, I never said “Toledo has a good cat collection”. Lions are absent from the collection, yes but there are plans to acquire them soon. The very little rarities and lack of interesting herps disappoints me. Lincoln Park undoubtedly has a better collection of herps imao, it’s mainly just smaller lizards and snakes with no “large” species. Each tank is smaller and the buildings feel like I went back in time.

 

[Panda_Fan]

Referring to a zoo to have a good herp collection but they don’t have a crocodilian is an issue. (Meaning larger croc, gharial or an alligator) When did I say amphibians are reptiles? I was referring to it as a “herp” collection as in herptiles. But, I never said “Toledo has a good cat collection”. Lions are absent from the collection, yes but there are plans to acquire them soon. The very little rarities and lack of interesting herps disappoints me. Lincoln Park undoubtedly has a better collection of herps imao, it’s mainly just smaller lizards and snakes with no “large” species. Each tank is smaller and the buildings feel like I went back in time.

Fair enough, I see your points. They do have African Dwarf Crocodile and sorry for the confusion of the the herp thing. Thanks for the good debate!

 

[USZOOfan42]

Fair enough, I see your points. They do have African Dwarf Crocodile and sorry for the confusion of the the herp thing. Thanks for the good debate!

Sorry if any of posts seemed rude, none were meant to be. I knew of the dwarf croc, but to me it is different than other crocodilians

 

[CMP]

Lincoln Park undoubtedly has a better collection of herps imao, it’s mainly just smaller lizards and snakes with no “large” species. Each tank is smaller and the buildings feel like I went back in time.

I was about to write a detailed rebuttal to a number of your frankly very absurd points until I read this. Now I know not to pay your opinions on this topic any mind. This is one of the worst takes I've ever read on the site. You're either trolling or missed half of Brookfield.

 

[birdsandbats]

Referring to a zoo to have a good herp collection but they don’t have a crocodilian is an issue. (Meaning larger croc, gharial or an alligator) When did I say amphibians are reptiles? I was referring to it as a “herp” collection as in herptiles. But, I never said “Toledo has a good cat collection”. Lions are absent from the collection, yes but there are plans to acquire them soon. The very little rarities and lack of interesting herps disappoints me. Lincoln Park undoubtedly has a better collection of herps imao, it’s mainly just smaller lizards and snakes with no “large” species. Each tank is smaller and the buildings feel like I went back in time.

This post makes it obvious you are probably trolling, and possibly haven't even visited Brookfield. Brookfield absolutely does have crocodilians (not just dwarf croc!) and a much larger and more comprehensive herp collection than Lincoln Park, which has a small and fairly limited herp collection.

Given this fact, there is no further reason for me to engage with your false statements.

 

[wild boar]

This post makes it obvious you are probably trolling, and possibly haven't even visited Brookfield. Brookfield absolutely does have crocodilians (not just dwarf croc!) and a much larger and more comprehensive herp collection than Lincoln Park, which has a small and fairly limited herp collection.

Given this fact, there is no further reason for me to engage with your false statements.

Not that I have any idea what trolling means, but wasn't there just one other crocodilian species (in The Swamp) that is no gone, or at least off-exhibit, meaning it is just the dwarf crocodiles now?

 

[birdsandbats]

Not that I have any idea what trolling means, but wasn't there just one other crocodilian species (in The Swamp) that is no gone, or at least off-exhibit, meaning it is just the dwarf crocodiles now?

There's alligators in there now.

 

[USZOOfan42]

Not that I have any idea what trolling means, but wasn't there just one other crocodilian species (in The Swamp) that is no gone, or at least off-exhibit, meaning it is just the dwarf crocodiles now?

Meaning spreading information people don’t like when you don’t like it either. Mind you, I purely believe my take. You are correct, there is only species of crocodilian on habitat and I believe on zoo property. Soon I’ll make a post addressing my take and explaining more in depth.

 

[USZOOfan42]

I was about to write a detailed rebuttal to a number of your frankly very absurd points until I read this. Now I know not to pay your opinions on this topic any mind. This is one of the worst takes I've ever read on the site. You're either trolling or missed half of Brookfield.

lol, when I visited Brookfield last summer, it was alright. Many dated habitats, none mind blowing except for maybe the African Forest and Australia. All of the herp exhibits in Feathers and Scales are small and a mess to find. The only reason I visited that building was to say “I completed Brookfield” and to see the roadrunner. As for Birds and Reptiles, that was even worse. It reminded me of the aquatic side of PC&A at Cleveland. Nothing notable and the best part was the tropical aviary.

This post makes it obvious you are probably trolling, and possibly haven't even visited Brookfield. Brookfield absolutely does have crocodilians (not just dwarf croc!) and a much larger and more comprehensive herp collection than Lincoln Park, which has a small and fairly limited herp collection.

Given this fact, there is no further reason for me to engage with your false statements.

How is this a false statement? It’s a matter of opinions! But, at least Lincoln Park had actual good planted and furnished habitats with some rarities. I much prefer their collection over 2 dated buildings that should be refurbished soon as possible.

 

[wild boar]

Lincoln Park obviously does much better with great apes and lions. Beyond that however, exhibits for the overlapping ABCs between the two collections are either fairly even in quality (polar bear, rhino, zebra, camel, seal, penguin) or definitely better at Brookfield (giraffe, gibbon, snow leopard, pygmy hippo, painted dog, wolf, kangaroo). Brookfield also has a much more extensive collection across the board and is one of the few major US zoos fighting against homogenization and actively bringing in rarer, more obscure species frequently.

The Brookfield Zoo's African wild dog enclosure was perhaps the worst I've ever seen. Why do you think it is better?

I will say I'm surprised you consider the penguin exhibits equal. I personally found the Brookfield Zoo's penguin exhibit to be more engaging and generally better than the Lincoln Park Zoo's. But, of course, in a decade or so, that could all change. As with everything else that has been happening recently or will be happening soon at the Brookfield Zoo, the plans to move the penguins and repurpose The Living Seas will probably only only plunge the institution further into the fjords of mediocrity.

The Lincoln Park Zoo also shines when it comes to rhinoceroses, reptiles, and birds compared to the Brookfield Zoo. The latter's collection of reptiles and birds is obviously bigger, but the former also has much better exhibits. The various aviaries around the Brookfield Zoo are generally poor (Habitat Africa Forest for example), the flamingos' outdoor space is just sad, as are the macaw perches, and other than the Swamp, the main buildings with birds are all outdated and boring. All of the Lincoln Park Zoo's bird exhibits, on the other hand, are consistently either average or better than average. The Lincoln Park Zoo also generally displays their reptiles in larger enclosures, which I find more important than the collection size, especially if there isn't much that's particularly noteworthy.

 

[CMP]

lol, when I visited Brookfield last summer, it was alright. Many dated habitats, none mind blowing except for maybe the African Forest and Australia. All of the herp exhibits in Feathers and Scales are small and a mess to find. The only reason I visited that building was to say “I completed Brookfield” and to see the roadrunner. As for Birds and Reptiles, that was even worse. It reminded me of the aquatic side of PC&A at Cleveland. Nothing notable and the best part was the tropical aviary.

How is this a false statement? It’s a matter of opinions! But, at least Lincoln Park had actual good planted and furnished habitats with some rarities. I much prefer their collection over 2 dated buildings that should be refurbished soon as possible.

The difference between collection and exhibit quality is obviously lost on you.

As with everything else that has been happening recently or will be happening soon at the Brookfield Zoo, the plans to move the penguins and repurpose The Living Seas will probably only only plunge the institution further into the fjords of mediocrity.

Do you have any evidence for this bold claim?


Don't get me wrong, Brookfield has its many faults, but I think there's been an exaggeration in criticism here. While I adore Brookfield's collection (which is undoubtedly top tier) I am not a fan of many of the indoor exhibits. Brookfield certainly has a lot of work to do, but they show every sign of taking steps in the right direction to remedy this.

LPZ has better exhibits overall, but not necessarily by leaps and bounds. There are a lot of exhibits that are comparable between the facilities. I don't understand the notion that LPZ's limited herp collection is somehow held in accommodations that are leaps and bounds above Brookfield. For the most part, they are fairly similar, with LPZ maintaining a slightly higher quality among its fewer exhibits, which is a theme you'll find in just about every comparison between the two).

 

[pachyderm pro]

The Brookfield Zoo's African wild dog enclosure was perhaps the worst I've ever seen. Why do you think it is better?

It's twice as large and has far more vesicle terrain with the large boulders and accessible multi-leveled moat. Yes the pavers are an unfortunate sightline, but for the animals themselves it's superior.

I will say I'm surprised you consider the penguin exhibits equal. I personally found the Brookfield Zoo's penguin exhibit to be more engaging and generally better than the Lincoln Park Zoo's. But, of course, in a decade or so, that could all change

Brookfield's exhibit is definitely more engaging with the free-flight seabirds and coastal thematics, but Lincoln Park's exhibit has enough going for it (outdoors, underwater viewing) to where I can understand why one could prefer it.

As with everything else that has been happening recently or will be happening soon at the Brookfield Zoo, the plans to move the penguins and repurpose The Living Seas will probably only only plunge the institution further into the fjords of mediocrity.

Huh? I don't understand what you're getting at here. There's nothing about the zoo's future plans or recent developments that has or will "plunge them further into the fjords of mediocrity." On the contrary, every future project will better the zoo one way or another. In the case of the penguins/seabirds in particular, the future exhibit will quite literally be a larger outdoor version of the current set-up. In what way does that leave the zoo worse off?

The Lincoln Park Zoo also shines when it comes to rhinoceroses, reptiles, and birds compared to the Brookfield Zoo.

Honestly I've always thought Lincoln Park's rhino complex was rather small for my liking. Brookfield's one rhino yard currently in use is larger than all three of Lincoln Park's combined.

The various aviaries around the Brookfield Zoo are generally poor (Habitat Africa Forest for example), the flamingos' outdoor space is just sad, as are the macaw perches, and other than the Swamp, the main buildings with birds are all outdated and boring.

Disagree: The swamp aviary, South American rainforest aviary, free-flight aviary in Reptiles and Birds, the kopje free-flight room, Sonoran desert aviary, and North American prairie aviary all range from good to great imo. There's also the aforementioned seabird room and the condor flight-cage which are similarly well done. In addition, and I'm not sure if you're under a different impression, but the flamingos have access to the entire formal pool which is an acre in size. Nothing sad about it. The indoor space isn't exactly huge, but it's not all that different from most indoor flamingo holding -- most zoos just don't have it publicly viewable. I agree the macaws deserve better though.

 

[Persephone]

…are there alligators in The Swamp? I can’t remember seeing them since at least the time the flamingoes moved in.

In any event, it’s not like Lincoln Park has bigger herps. Brookfield really surpasses them there with the sea turtles, various monitor lizards, and pythons. Maybe giant tortoises. Unsure what’s up with them right now.

I said in my last post that I narrowly preferred Brookfield over Lincoln Park. Having spent a lot more time at Brookfield and recently revisited Lincoln Park, I retract this statement. Brookfield is stronger in almost every meaningful way.

I will give Lincoln Park big cats / bears. Brookfield isn’t great in those departments, despite how relatively new their bear exhibit is. They might take birds. For now they have much better ape exhibits. Give it a few months and that’ll have evened out a fair bit. Definitely take smaller primates. I really like the cactus mice and Brookfield doesn’t have an answer to that.

But like. For most big species Brookfield’s enclosures are comparable or better. Most are set to get much better in the master plan. And then sometimes Brookfield’s collection or exhibits just dominates. The Living Coast, Australian animals, African small mammals, small mammals, pinnipeds, larger reptiles…

Don’t get me wrong I have a lot of respect for LPZ, but Brookfield is just a different beast.

 

[Panda_Fan]

Sorry if any of posts seemed rude, none were meant to be. I knew of the dwarf croc, but to me it is different than other crocodilians

Oh, no worries, it wasn't rude, it's just that I understand your point of view (even tho I still defend the Brookfield zoo as a good zoo), and I do enjoy a good debate, so it's fine! I imagined that you didn't count the dwarf croc, because you said major crocodilians, but even then I still pointed it out! Don't worries and best wishes.

 

[Don Majeski]

Debatable, but you are probably correct my list currently is
Omaha
SDZ
SDZSP
NC
Columbus
St Louis
National
Cincinnati
Memphis
Toledo
Brookfield
Cleveland
Detroit
Indianapolis
Louisville

Which some zoos like Cleveland and Louisville are arguably better and there are many I have not visited are better, Bronx, LA, Living Desert, Miami, Philiadelphia, Providence, Minnesota and Phoenix. With probably more I didn’t list.

Every zoo that is great (St. Augustine Alligator farm, Duke (Primate) Lemur Center doesn’t necessarily need one but every great zoo has one: Okapi

 

[evilmonkey239]

Referring to a zoo to have a good herp collection but they don’t have a crocodilian is an issue. (Meaning larger croc, gharial or an alligator) When did I say amphibians are reptiles? I was referring to it as a “herp” collection as in herptiles. But, I never said “Toledo has a good cat collection”. Lions are absent from the collection, yes but there are plans to acquire them soon. The very little rarities and lack of interesting herps disappoints me. Lincoln Park undoubtedly has a better collection of herps imao, it’s mainly just smaller lizards and snakes with no “large” species. Each tank is smaller and the buildings feel like I went back in time.

Do you mind elaborating a bit on Toledo’s plans to acquire lions soon? This is the first I’m hearing of them.

 

[USZOOfan42]

Do you mind elaborating a bit on Toledo’s plans to acquire lions soon? This is the first I’m hearing of them.

There’s plans to change the tembo trail into a lion area, with the elephants getting a new habitat.