forumbully
Well-Known Member
since 2007, so it's quite normal that they haven't differentiated all that much.
and in addition to that and the rest of your suggestions:
money money money! must be funny! in a rich mans world!
Berlin Tierpark What´s the deal with the director of Berlin Tierpark?
- Thread starter Dan
- Start date
since 2007, so it's quite normal that they haven't differentiated all that much.
and in addition to that and the rest of your suggestions:
money money money! must be funny! in a rich mans world!
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
Amen!
@Johnny: Why shouldn't the deer have more space? And why should they be sacrified for the sake of "much larger animals" (aka the "holy" elephants)? In my book, a deer has the very same right to have a proper enclosure as any other zoo animal. And I don't think that the deer enclosures in the Tierpark are the optimum, but could also be better
Why should a "geozoo" be automatically more attractive? The average zoo visitor surely isn't aware of any zoogeography, and doesn't care. Besides, none of the zoogeographic zoos is really precise when it comes to placing animals; take a look at Munich, the world's first "Geozoo", where Red Pandas live next to Aldabra Giant Tortoises and Jaguars...
And then all those artifical "ethnic" ambient items:
If your vision of a "geozoo" includes fake "Mayan" rocks, huge noisy artificial waterfalls, "African savannah/jungle" music from loudspeakers and Siberian Brown Bears in "Alaska" next to Ring Tailed Lemurs in "Africa", then I'm glad that Dr. B is still there...
About the "could"s and "should"s: see what forumbully wrote.
"If I were a rich man,..."
Add to that list African Savannahs with zebra, scimitar oryx, and bontebok!
In a geographical setting the zoo would become more attractive to visitors. The average visitor certainly doesn't care about showing 5 species of zebra's! ( if they have 5, that is) I just think it's a shame that tierpark has more space than most zoo's and doesn't use it to make the park more attractive. If they continue like they do now, they will always be the lesser of the two zoo's, while it could do better and certainly deserves better.
And for the issue of funding, I can't look in the wallet of both zoo's, but for the money of that mountain exhibit, a savannah could have been build just as easily.
And for the issue of funding, I can't look in the wallet of both zoo's, but for the money of that mountain exhibit, a savannah could have been build just as easily.
forumbully
Well-Known Member
every zoo has a savannah. generally with more or less the same animals.
TP has a mountain exhibit with several animals that are rarely seen in zoos. Gems, markhor, both takin species, steller eagle, ...
not all species I'm interested in. but I wouldn't say TP is the lesser of berlins zoos just based on collection.
much the contrary, I think TP's collection is more varied. and by showing animals of related genera (2 elephants, 3hyenas, the zebras, ...) you provide the opportunity to see the difference and learn about it.
TP has a mountain exhibit with several animals that are rarely seen in zoos. Gems, markhor, both takin species, steller eagle, ...
not all species I'm interested in. but I wouldn't say TP is the lesser of berlins zoos just based on collection.
much the contrary, I think TP's collection is more varied. and by showing animals of related genera (2 elephants, 3hyenas, the zebras, ...) you provide the opportunity to see the difference and learn about it.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
No offense, but that's nonsense. First of all, the average visitor wants to see animals. If the "wrapping" has some kind of "geozoo" theme going, then this might be appretiated, but not be overly fussed about. As various examples in zoos illustrate, exhibits following a certain theme (for example "rainforest", "desert", "islands" etc.) with a wild mix of all sort of creatures are equally popular.
So after bashing the deer, the zebras are next? Having several species of one genus or family in one zoo has the educational effect of enabling the visitor to compare the different species.
And as we talk about "geography": the area the oh so scolded mountain animal exhibits were built upon was already hilly to start from. Building an "African Savannah" there would not have been in line with the existing topography. Personally, I prefer that zoos design and build their exhibits in accordance with the setting of the zoo, and not in accordance to some drab standard settings.
Isn't the mountain animal area the most "zoogeographical" part of the Tierpark, anyway? There you go...
Dan
Well-Known Member
I seems as if my perhaps a tad naive curiosity about Dr D. sparkled a very interesting debates about the pros and cons of the two Berlin zoos! Thanks to all participators.
I have been to Berlin Zoo twice. Next time I visit Berlin I will obviously go and check out the Tierpark.
I have been to Berlin Zoo twice. Next time I visit Berlin I will obviously go and check out the Tierpark.
No offense, but that's nonsense. First of all, the average visitor wants to see animals. If the "wrapping" has some kind of "geozoo" theme going, then this might be appretiated, but not be overly fussed about. As various examples in zoos illustrate, exhibits following a certain theme (for example "rainforest", "desert", "islands" etc.) with a wild mix of all sort of creatures are equally popular.
So after bashing the deer, the zebras are next? Having several species of one genus or family in one zoo has the educational effect of enabling the visitor to compare the different species.
And as we talk about "geography": the area the oh so scolded mountain animal exhibits were built upon was already hilly to start from. Building an "African Savannah" there would not have been in line with the existing topography. Personally, I prefer that zoos design and build their exhibits in accordance with the setting of the zoo, and not in accordance to some drab standard settings.
Isn't the mountain animal area the most "zoogeographical" part of the Tierpark, anyway? There you go...
No offense taken, but it's certainly not nonsense. I'm not saying that it has to be a geographical setting , but when I look at the space and the collection, I believe that's the best way, and also the best way to make the zoo more attractive towards the visitors.
I previously mentioned the zebra's as an example. I don't know how many they actually have, but let's say they have 5 species. Ok, that's not a bad thing. But the average visitor doesn't care about 5 species, they are happy enough by seeing one species. All the species have identical exhibits. Spacious, rectangular, good for the animals, but boring to look at. And for these exhibits as well as for a lot others, they are single species exhibits. And that's why a savannah would be an ideal example for improvement. A centre terrain for giraffes, antilopes and all the animals that can be combinated. And around it several pens for all the zebra species, a large exhibit for the african elephants, the hyena's, african lions ( they have african and asian lions, if I remember correctly), cheetah's, buffalo's etc. You could make ponds between some exhibits, and walk over a bridge, and have animals at both sides. That would be an improvement for a lot of animals and for the visitors. And if the visitors like it, more people visit the zoo, what will improve the financial situation.
See what I mean? It doesn't have to be a savannah, there are other idea's, the mountain animal theme also isn't a bad one, I just don't like the way it's carried out. But I think a savannah is the best example, it fits in the park with all its large exhibits, it's an ideal way to show hoofstock in an attractive fashion, and an improvement for the animals ( especially the carnivores and elephants.
@ Dan, although I find Tierpark the lesser of the two, I still think you should visit it. It has a great collection, but bring good shoe's! If you want to see everything, you need to keep walking, it's over 150 acres in size.
forumbully
Well-Known Member
The EEP doesn't allow a zoo to keep both asian and african lions as far as I know.
other than that: mixed exhibits are better for the public, but not always for the animals.
the visitors have more "action" to look at.
but for the animals you have to keep dozens of things into account: territoriality, behaviour when there are young, space, escape routes, ...
a few examples: antwerps camels are kept separately when in heat, because the male gets agressive. emmens buffaloes are kept separately when there are young moose. leipzig and basel separate their ostrich when there are eggs/chicks. planckendael and olmen abandonded the mixed savannah because the zebra didn't get along with the other animals. (planckendael is having another try with other species now)
speaking as someone who has studied the subject: I love the idea of mixed exhibits, but the generally mean more stress for the animals and more work for the keepers.
other than that: mixed exhibits are better for the public, but not always for the animals.
the visitors have more "action" to look at.
but for the animals you have to keep dozens of things into account: territoriality, behaviour when there are young, space, escape routes, ...
a few examples: antwerps camels are kept separately when in heat, because the male gets agressive. emmens buffaloes are kept separately when there are young moose. leipzig and basel separate their ostrich when there are eggs/chicks. planckendael and olmen abandonded the mixed savannah because the zebra didn't get along with the other animals. (planckendael is having another try with other species now)
speaking as someone who has studied the subject: I love the idea of mixed exhibits, but the generally mean more stress for the animals and more work for the keepers.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
My pleasure, @Ban...
Sorry, @Johnny, but that's just your personal opinion; I accept it as such, but I don't see much of a valid point in it. What you describe is the usual "African Savannah" setting that is (so) commonplace in almost every zoo. Not the most original of all ideas, and certainly not something that will impress and excite the average zoo visitors more than the current setting. And why should the "holy cows" aka big cats and (African Bush
) elephants always be the ones to benefit from anything...?
Forumbully was so kind to mention some examples why mixed species exhibits might be lovely on the paper, but not that ideal in reality. Zebras, for example, [especially Grevy's] are known to be vicious, deliberately killing antelope calves and attacking other animals within their enclosure. Giraffes and antelopes can also be a tickly thing to mingle.
As long as BB is in charge, there won't be much interspecific mixing...
And for the record: the Tierpark keeps Chapman's, Grevy's and Hartmann's mountain zebras. If the average Tierpark visitor can't see one group (for what reason whatsoever), he/she can see another one-and compare.
Sorry, @Johnny, but that's just your personal opinion; I accept it as such, but I don't see much of a valid point in it. What you describe is the usual "African Savannah" setting that is (so) commonplace in almost every zoo. Not the most original of all ideas, and certainly not something that will impress and excite the average zoo visitors more than the current setting. And why should the "holy cows" aka big cats and (African Bush
) elephants always be the ones to benefit from anything...?Forumbully was so kind to mention some examples why mixed species exhibits might be lovely on the paper, but not that ideal in reality. Zebras, for example, [especially Grevy's] are known to be vicious, deliberately killing antelope calves and attacking other animals within their enclosure. Giraffes and antelopes can also be a tickly thing to mingle.
As long as BB is in charge, there won't be much interspecific mixing...
And for the record: the Tierpark keeps Chapman's, Grevy's and Hartmann's mountain zebras. If the average Tierpark visitor can't see one group (for what reason whatsoever), he/she can see another one-and compare.
I know it's a common thing, but tierpark has the spave and collection to lift the geozoo to another level. It doesn't have to be geographical, but a biotope idea would work for me too. They don't have to build a complete rainforest or anything ( would fit though), but it's not that difficult to make it more attractive towards visitors. I know that the mountain area is an attempt in this direction, but I dont't think much of the way they are carrying it out.
Why be bothered here? It is not a set piece that every zoo should follow the Emmen Zoo geo concept or any other for that matter. Just enjoy the diversity of different approaches to zoo management and exhibition.
I have been to Berlin Tierpark quite a few times and really do enjoy the fact that they (ARE ABLE) to maintain large groups of taxonomically distinct species. The enormous amount of space at Tierpark lends itself to this approach too and in case you would forget ... if it were not for institutions like Tierpark we would be loosing many of our hoofstock species, simply because we do not have the spaces required to maintain them in sufficient numbers.
devilfish
Well-Known Member
Mr Blaszkiewitz is back in the news after an unlucky encounter:
Chimp bites off Berlin zoo director’s finger | World Zoo Today
Chimp bites off Berlin zoo director’s finger | World Zoo Today
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@nayer: Already mentioned at the other Berlin thread...
Dan, please read and think
Dan, it shines through your post that you have judged Dr. Bernhard Blasziewitz already and are just looking for fellow low-life soul mates here to share your views on him with.
You already have your 'facts' (even if from questionable sources such as tabloids and television) so why should we respond to your post at all? I don’t know why I’m doing it, and normally I would not be as candid as I am now, but you totally disgust me with your pure arrogance and uninformed attitude.
The arrogance you show with the following line "don’t care to check out the exact spelling" tells me many things about you and your personality. If you are such a man of revolution and perfection, then how about starting at home in Sweden. Sweden has many excellent zoos, although hardly can they be perfect, so how about starting to change them. Or have they had restriction orders put on you? It wouldn't surprise me.
Tierpark Berlin and Zoo Berlin have magnificent history and excellent breeding record for many rare species. They are not beyond criticism, but criticism the way you put it is something not deserved by even the most horrible roadside zoos. If you had the slightest sense or knowledge of the history of Tierpark Berlin, you would be able to put it all into context.
Dan, it shines through your post that you have judged Dr. Bernhard Blasziewitz already and are just looking for fellow low-life soul mates here to share your views on him with.
You already have your 'facts' (even if from questionable sources such as tabloids and television) so why should we respond to your post at all? I don’t know why I’m doing it, and normally I would not be as candid as I am now, but you totally disgust me with your pure arrogance and uninformed attitude.
The arrogance you show with the following line "don’t care to check out the exact spelling" tells me many things about you and your personality. If you are such a man of revolution and perfection, then how about starting at home in Sweden. Sweden has many excellent zoos, although hardly can they be perfect, so how about starting to change them. Or have they had restriction orders put on you? It wouldn't surprise me.
Tierpark Berlin and Zoo Berlin have magnificent history and excellent breeding record for many rare species. They are not beyond criticism, but criticism the way you put it is something not deserved by even the most horrible roadside zoos. If you had the slightest sense or knowledge of the history of Tierpark Berlin, you would be able to put it all into context.
Zooplantman, if you're asking me what I think of Dr. Blasziewitz, firstly I would like to say that I have never met him in person. I was not able to attend the zoo collectors' meeting in Tierpark Berlin which he hosted in 2005. But I have met people who know him, and they say that in person he is a jolly man who enjoys what he is doing.
I am fond of both Zoo Berlin and Tierpark Berlin, even if I have only visited them in 1995 and 2004. The zoo lacks in space in places but it is certainly not the worst I have seen. The Tierpark is set in magnificent settings; its enclosures are among the largest you will see in a zoo so close to a large city (we are not talking about any country-side zoo like Whipsnade here).
What Dan and others have to understand is the environment which Dr. Blasziewitz must work in and what has happened in the past which now affects the present and no doubt will affect the future. If you can get any articles by the late Marvin Jones, historian and former registrar of the San Diego Zoo, he will explain how German zoos evolved from the 1950s and to the present day. I knew Marvin for some time and corresponded with him; he opened my eyes a lot and gave me a new perspective on zoos. He lived in Germany every now and then into the 1980s, first he was based with the army there and later he worked on projects for various zoos there. He even spoke German and even was the first American to ever visit the Tierpark!
Dr. Blasziewitz is managing the Berlin Zoo, with its 160 years of history and traditions, and then the Tierpark, with much shorter but almost equal set of traditions. He is bound by history, tradition, finance (it is not Disney's Animal Kingdom, fortunately not all zoos are) and more, including difficult human resources. Dr. Dathe and others who ran the Tierpark before him through the communist era were more instrumental on how things look today.
Making Dr. Blasziewitz a scapegoat for all that is wrong with Tierpark Berlin is as ridiculous as thanking only him for all the good things about it.
I am fond of both Zoo Berlin and Tierpark Berlin, even if I have only visited them in 1995 and 2004. The zoo lacks in space in places but it is certainly not the worst I have seen. The Tierpark is set in magnificent settings; its enclosures are among the largest you will see in a zoo so close to a large city (we are not talking about any country-side zoo like Whipsnade here).
What Dan and others have to understand is the environment which Dr. Blasziewitz must work in and what has happened in the past which now affects the present and no doubt will affect the future. If you can get any articles by the late Marvin Jones, historian and former registrar of the San Diego Zoo, he will explain how German zoos evolved from the 1950s and to the present day. I knew Marvin for some time and corresponded with him; he opened my eyes a lot and gave me a new perspective on zoos. He lived in Germany every now and then into the 1980s, first he was based with the army there and later he worked on projects for various zoos there. He even spoke German and even was the first American to ever visit the Tierpark!
Dr. Blasziewitz is managing the Berlin Zoo, with its 160 years of history and traditions, and then the Tierpark, with much shorter but almost equal set of traditions. He is bound by history, tradition, finance (it is not Disney's Animal Kingdom, fortunately not all zoos are) and more, including difficult human resources. Dr. Dathe and others who ran the Tierpark before him through the communist era were more instrumental on how things look today.
Making Dr. Blasziewitz a scapegoat for all that is wrong with Tierpark Berlin is as ridiculous as thanking only him for all the good things about it.
devilfish
Well-Known Member
Dan
Well-Known Member
@Baldur:
Naturally, I am truly saddened by the fact that you regard me as ”low-life” and that I totally “disgust” you, Baldur. But I am all in favour of free speech and it is your privilege to express yourself the way you do.
You are, however, wrong on one fundamental point. When I joined ZooBeat/ZooChat some nine moths ago, I had never heard of Dr B. But his name kept popping up and I got curious about him. Hence my questions in my initial post in this thread. I had no hidden agenda.
As for “restriction orders” put on me? No, that has not happened and I do not suspect it ever will. I am a very peaceful old man...
Naturally, I am truly saddened by the fact that you regard me as ”low-life” and that I totally “disgust” you, Baldur. But I am all in favour of free speech and it is your privilege to express yourself the way you do.
You are, however, wrong on one fundamental point. When I joined ZooBeat/ZooChat some nine moths ago, I had never heard of Dr B. But his name kept popping up and I got curious about him. Hence my questions in my initial post in this thread. I had no hidden agenda.
As for “restriction orders” put on me? No, that has not happened and I do not suspect it ever will. I am a very peaceful old man...
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