Elephant discussion split to here: Elephant Conservation - ex-situ vs in-situ
What was the biggest lie that you ever heard from anti-zoo people?
- Thread starter HungarianBison
- Start date
Except for megafauna it is rare for an animal in the wild to die of old age. You can see how they treat sick or injured animals on "Secrets of the Zoo" and almost all of these animals would be dead if they weren't in zoos.
Detroit sent its Indian elephants off to a sanctuary some years ago and while I disagree with a lot of the director's species reductions this one was reasonable. There wasn't a lot of room for them and given our climate they had to spend much of the winter indoors.
I thought Seattle had sufficient room but they've gotten rid of their elephants. Anyone know the story?
Elephas Maximus
Well-Known Member
Zoo animals are sentient and pass memories of freedom from generation to generation, especially 'noble' and 'proud' species such as eagles, deer, big cats & elephants, and 'clever' species as apes. If a species doesn't breed in certain zoo (and generally in captivity), it's because animals don't want their offspring to be 'inmates'.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Where have you heard that "memory of freedom" concept from ? I mean who did you hear say it ?
The breeding thing that you mention is hilarious, I've never heard anyone say that but I imagine it is a common concept and particularly at this present moment in time in which people probably project their own anxieties to zoo animals.
Elephas Maximus
Well-Known Member
Internet comments of anti zoo people and heard from zoo visitors.
There is even a quotation dating probably Soviet times: 'Mountain eagles don't breed in captivity'.
Most Russian people don't stop anthropomorphising animals after growing up and cannot visit decent zoos as well.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Interesting, but unfortunately I think that kind of anthromorphism is not just limited to Russians but is just a human thing all over the world.
Elephas Maximus
Well-Known Member
Our nation is one of most uneducated & ignorant about wildlife.
We remove thousands of young animals (usually birds) from the wild each year by 'rescuing' them, then feeding wrong food and those who manage to survive long enough are released, because they have instincts so everything would be OK! Charismatic species as owls, ravens, raptors & foxes become 'loved' pets for some time to be released as well after bringing problems. And of course such animals are also deliberately captured for pet trade. Btw there are virtually no state rehab centers for wildlife, only private ones that rely on donations.
We also kill harmless species like glass lizards and dice snakes because they're 'venomous', and bats, because of rabies and coronavirus hysteria. Large insects & spiders are killed on sight - they're ugly, scary and don't deserve to live of course.
We feed stray & feral cats & dogs that kill billions of wildlife, and now it's illegal to destroy them because of mentally ill activists, even in nature reserves.
And we don't have a single world class zoo.
Last edited:
Sounds just like a situation we have in the U.S., where many baby wild animals (mainly birds, squirrels, rabbits, etc) are nabbed by well-meaning people and then refusing to seek a wildlife professional, and then many die due to this. If they survive and then are released, then they usually eventually perish in the wild. Also, the killing of snakes and other misunderstood animals is still pretty common as well (often through inhumane and obscene means). People will call anything legless a "water moccasin" or "copperhead" and kill them wantonly without any reason given.
Even so bad that in some states, rattlesnakes are rounded up (often gassed out of their dens) only to be brutally tortured and then slaughtered for entertainment, and then we get feral cats being protected by the law as well! (despite that, as we all know, that they are ecological menaces...) Add to the fact that the pro-outdoor cat people are a part of this mess as well (even though it's literally not worth keeping cats outdoors their whole lives since it puts them at risk for diseases, wild animals, cars, less-than-friendly people, etc...)
Even so bad that in some states, rattlesnakes are rounded up (often gassed out of their dens) only to be brutally tortured and then slaughtered for entertainment, and then we get feral cats being protected by the law as well! (despite that, as we all know, that they are ecological menaces...) Add to the fact that the pro-outdoor cat people are a part of this mess as well (even though it's literally not worth keeping cats outdoors their whole lives since it puts them at risk for diseases, wild animals, cars, less-than-friendly people, etc...)
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Pretty much everything you've said with regards to Russian attitudes / ignorance to wildlife could also broadly describe the overall situation in countries all over the world as all of these are global problems / phenomena.
It might be better described as human lack of education / empathy and ignorance about the natural world rather than being endemic to your country or any other.
The lack of a world class zoo in Russia is another issue really but perhaps that is a reflection of wider society and how difficult the post Soviet transition to a market driven capitalist society (or perhaps an oligarch / kleptocratic society would be a better term?) have been ?
Last edited:
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Well said !
Elephas Maximus
Well-Known Member
You have law enforcement at least.
Returning to the topic, I also often heard that it's better for animals to live a shorter free life as Mother Nature/God intended than a long captive one like a human in prison cell. Zoos are bad because they have fences, nature reserves are good (reserves are often mixed with national parks since visitors are supposed). All (charismatic) zoo animals should be put into reserves and exotics repatriated.
Interestingly I haven't seen anti-terraria & anti-aquaria people in Russia, because reptiles are abhorrent, and fish are considered to be either food or ornamental animals/pets in our society.
Last edited:
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I've heard that law enforcement can be terrifyingly effective and brutal in the Russian Far East for poachers after Putin expressed interest in the Siberian tiger and Amur leopard and these cats became his personal mascot.
And the feral Horses and Donkeys are protected by law, too.
Though we do, sometimes the law doesn't always work in our favor here. Law enforcement probably wouldn't care if someone went out and decided to kill a bunch of reptiles unless they were protected by the law.
Even then cops might not care as "its just some lizard" or "it's just a lousy snake". Most law enforcement won't consider wildlife crimes "serious" crimes.
I have read in more than one place that for most animals in the wild, the overriding emotion is fear--fear of being eaten, of not getting enough food, whatever. Also it is rare for animals in the wild except perhaps megafauna like elephants to die of old age. They do that a lot in zoos. Some of you may have seen the "Secrets of the Zoo" series on tv. A primary focus is animal hospitals and most of those animals that are injured would not survive in the wild.
Detroit Zoo used to have a chimpanzee show. A few years after it closed a keeper off the record told me that the chimps liked it and were excited when they sensed show time was coming, but it was closed for political reasons, including the idea that it was cruel to the animals.
Regarding Detroit's former chimpanzee show, there were actually reports of one of the trainers physically abusing the animals as well.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Yes and true that wild animals are subject to a lot of stress from predation that typically doesn't happen in captivity (unless in South Lakes).
However there is a downside to that lack of predators and stress too because it makes reintroduction especially difficult.
Captive animals typically do not have adequate fine motor or cognitive skills to adapt back to their natural habitat in the sense of recognition and avoidance and defence against predators.
In addition to those behavioural and physical handicaps to adaption to the wild there is also the problem of genetic domestication of zoo animals.
TheChukaulorian
Well-Known Member
With genetic domestication do you refer to the perpetuation (selection?) of traits and behaviors that make an individual animal fitter to a captive setting?