What was the biggest lie that you ever heard from anti-zoo people?

Lafone said:
I wouldn't use the Sun or the Daily Mail as references..they come up in Google at the top of searches because lots of people who are not well informed about much click on them, not because they are useful. That's how google often works - it pays to look rather more closely. Can't say I find the sexism on either side amusing myself but it takes all sorts.

I was referring to the language PETA used, which was widely reported in reputable publications.
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PETA was founded by a woman and is run by women. From what I've read they are very aware of what sexism actually means. They intentionally use the problem as an opportunity to get their message across to sexists. And the Daily Mail has far more readers than the Times.

To me they do make a lot of claims, some of which are obviously true and others which I would find questionable. As for their language I can see how it would upset people, but they are obviously very upset by the status quo. Sometimes you have to speak hard truths. (As long as they actually are truths!)

Until coming on here, I have been unaware of what many of their claims are. I will need to know more before I judge.

From what I've read on these threads there are a lot of people posting here who agree with a lot of what they say. Both people who support zoos and people who support PETA have one thing in common - they are concerned for animal welfare. The simply disagree on the methods of protecting animals.

I read a conservationist Damian (someone) came on here and had a long conversation with posters here who didn't like him. He did the right thing though. He talked to his opponents.
 
Dabhidh said:
PETA was founded by a woman and is run by women. From what I've read they are very aware of what sexism actually means. They intentionally use the problem as an opportunity to get their message across to sexists. And the Daily Mail has far more readers than the Times.

To me they do make a lot of claims, some of which are obviously true and others which I would find questionable. As for their language I can see how it would upset people, but they are obviously very upset by the status quo. Sometimes you have to speak hard truths. (As long as they actually are truths!)

Until coming on here, I have been unaware of what many of their claims are. I will need to know more before I judge.

From what I've read on these threads there are a lot of people posting here who agree with a lot of what they say. Both people who support zoos and people who support PETA have one thing in common - they are concerned for animal welfare. The simply disagree on the methods of protecting animals.

I read a conservationist Damian (someone) came on here and had a long conversation with posters here who didn't like him. He did the right thing though. He talked to his opponents.
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I will be offline now for a short while and not responding to posts. (But I'll be back.)
 
Dabhidh said:
I read a conservationist Damian (someone) came on here and had a long conversation with posters here who didn't like him.
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That would be Damian Aspinall, son of John Aspinall and head of the Aspinall Foundation, who own 2 zoos in Kent. He’s definitely more of a businessman than a conservationist, and he’s unpopular on here because he is against the idea of zoos despite owning 2 and many of the animals that he released to the wild died soon after because they weren’t properly prepared for a life in the wild.

Other members will know more about the specifics than me, but that’s the bottom line.
 
Dabhidh said:
PETA was founded by a woman and is run by women. From what I've read they are very aware of what sexism actually means. They intentionally use the problem as an opportunity to get their message across to sexists. And the Daily Mail has far more readers than the Times.

To me they do make a lot of claims, some of which are obviously true and others which I would find questionable. As for their language I can see how it would upset people, but they are obviously very upset by the status quo. Sometimes you have to speak hard truths. (As long as they actually are truths!)

Until coming on here, I have been unaware of what many of their claims are. I will need to know more before I judge.

From what I've read on these threads there are a lot of people posting here who agree with a lot of what they say. Both people who support zoos and people who support PETA have one thing in common - they are concerned for animal welfare. The simply disagree on the methods of protecting animals.

I read a conservationist Damian (someone) came on here and had a long conversation with posters here who didn't like him. He did the right thing though. He talked to his opponents.
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From never having heard of PETA to an expert. Good luck :)
 
Dabhidh said:
He did the right thing though. He talked to his opponents.
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Or rather, he came here and made numerous unsourced claims regarding research and discoveries he claimed to have made, and then whenever asked for sources or data refused to provide this information - only saying that one of his employees would be instructed to provide this on his behalf if anyone contacted them via email. Everyone who attempted to do so was ghosted and/or blocked.
 
I heard people think that they drug the big cats so that they stay asleep during the daytime. Tho they weren't rly anti-zoo

I explained that carnivores sleep all the time, even in the wild
 
Great Argus said:
Or rather, he came here and made numerous unsourced claims regarding research and discoveries he claimed to have made, and then whenever asked for sources or data refused to provide this information - only saying that one of his employees would be instructed to provide this on his behalf if anyone contacted them via email. Everyone who attempted to do so was ghosted and/or blocked.
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All in all, a fine piece of work. I hope Howletts and Port Lympne get bought out and ASSpinall falls into irrelevancy and bankruptcy.
 
Mine is not so much a lie but more of a bad argument. I hate it when people try to say that an enclosure is bad by saying something along the lines of "imagine if you were trapped in there your whole life". Its just frustrating because it completely neglects the fact that animals have different needs and priorities than humans. I have tried to point this out to people who make such arguments but to absolutely no avail. Unsurprisingly, they just throw attacks at my intelligence and call me heartless. I've just come to accept that these kinds of people cannot be reasoned with and I avoid comment sections on anything zoo related because seeing stuff like that always makes me angry.
 
cloudedleopard611 said:
Mine is not so much a lie but more of a bad argument. I hate it when people try to say that an enclosure is bad by saying something along the lines of "imagine if you were trapped in there your whole life". Its just frustrating because it completely neglects the fact that animals have different needs and priorities than humans. I have tried to point this out to people who make such arguments but to absolutely no avail. Unsurprisingly, they just throw attacks at my intelligence and call me heartless. I've just come to accept that these kinds of people cannot be reasoned with and I avoid comment sections on anything zoo related because seeing stuff like that always makes me angry.
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Fun fact: America have the highest prisoners rate out of every country in the world.
 
There’s one Dodo that has not died yet, but really should go extinct.
I’m talking about The Dodo, an animal news site that focuses on domestic animals as well as rescues, rehabilitation, and “sanctuaries”.
It is associated with some animal rights organizations, and does bring up many animal-rights myths about zoos: see this article about why The Dodo should not be trusted.
— Please, let trusting The Dodo as a source go...
 
cloudedleopard611 said:
Mine is not so much a lie but more of a bad argument. I hate it when people try to say that an enclosure is bad by saying something along the lines of "imagine if you were trapped in there your whole life". Its just frustrating because it completely neglects the fact that animals have different needs and priorities than humans. I have tried to point this out to people who make such arguments but to absolutely no avail. Unsurprisingly, they just throw attacks at my intelligence and call me heartless. I've just come to accept that these kinds of people cannot be reasoned with and I avoid comment sections on anything zoo related because seeing stuff like that always makes me angry.
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Here’s a post that explains the problem of anthropomorphism well:
— Do you have anything against anthropomorphism as a...
 
Birdsage said:
There’s one Dodo that has not died yet, but really should go extinct.
I’m talking about The Dodo, an animal news site that focuses on domestic animals as well as rescues, rehabilitation, and “sanctuaries”.
It is associated with some animal rights organizations, and does bring up many animal-rights myths about zoos: see this article about why The Dodo should not be trusted.
— Please, let trusting The Dodo as a source go...
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Oooh yes, The Dodo, when I found out that they despise zoos but are the usual "Animals are your friends" referring only to domestics and are antispecists I unfollowed them everywhere I could, I know it's no big deal, but the fact that a lot of their videos still pop up in most "reccommended" sections and still go viral is no good
 
Birdsage said:
That’s a thing with a lot of animal rights groups: they claim to be fighting speciesism when they focus on charismatic animals.
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I’ve joked that PETA only cares about animals that they don’t have to Google. Case in point, they never said a thing about Pangolins until people started blaming them for the pandemic (even though they’ve been trafficked before that).
 
Long one here. I got into an online debate yesterday with an animal rights activist, and of course, heard the usual that was already mentioned on this thread. "Animals should be free, they know that they're in captivity" all that. She mentioned hunting and how it's enriching, and while yes it is enriching, I explained predators usually don't have fun hunting, and many top predators like lions have low hunting success rates and will often choose to scavenge if they can. Plus, running in heat or cold or through deep snow after strong herbivores with some natural weaponry probably isn't too enjoyable.

I tell her that these many zoo animals wouldn't outlive their wild counterparts if they were always stressed as anti-zoo people claim, but she says many animals in crummy zoos lived longer than wild animals, too, and that constant stress and depression doesn't affect their lifespan, and increase in lifespan doesn't reflect quality of life, and of course she has to compare zoo vs wild animal lifespans to a person living free and getting hit by a bus at a young age or a person in captivity living to old age. She also said out of the many animals saved by zoos I told her about, only the oryxes increased in population and no wild mammal populations have truly increased, in addition to saying I was wrong about the giant panda population being saved by zoos.

I linked her a video of a cheetah run at San Diego Zoo after she requested to see a cheetah run full speed in a zoo, and she complained the cheetah is forced to run on their time in front of the crowd. I also linked a video of some gorillas somewhere in the UK I believe behaving normally, as well as a full pov of Disney's safari ride, which I think she opted to not watch the last two anyways. I also noticed she has cats. Hm. That's new, right? The anti-zoo person who believes animals should be free and wild animals know what freedom is keeps animals in her house all day (and no I'm not against pets, I'm all for it, just pointing that out). Of course, because cats look different and are a bit more dependent on us, it's acceptable to keep those in captivity to the anti-zoo folk. If they're going to use the "they're domesticated" thing to excuse them keeping pets but are against wild animals in proper human care, then I ask this. What's so different from keeping a cow in a large pasture and keeping a buffalo in a large grassy habitat? I'd expect to see the same thing from both- grazing or lounging around.
 
Davdhole said:
The anti-zoo person who believes animals should be free and wild animals know what freedom is keeps animals in her house all day (and no I'm not against pets, I'm all for it, just pointing that out).
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The thing that would have made me go nuts if she said "I free him indeed to make him go whenever he wants, then he returns home because it loves me", not only meaning that she causes environmental damage, but also thinks the cat doesn't see her as a secure food source thus denying even more that the animal is indeed better in human care
 
Mickey said:
The thing that would have made me go nuts if she said "I free him indeed to make him go whenever he wants, then he returns home because it loves me", not only meaning that she causes environmental damage, but also thinks the cat doesn't see her as a secure food source thus denying even more that the animal is indeed better in human care
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I'm pretty sure she keeps her cats indoors at all times, so if that's the case that's the only kudos I can give her. Otherwise we disagreed. A little calling me willfully ignorant here and some I don't really know anything about animals there and some other things sprinkled in there, I think it was pretty entertaining and admittedly a bit irritating.
 
Davdhole said:
I'm pretty sure she keeps her cats indoors at all times, so if that's the case that's the only kudos I can give her. Otherwise we disagreed. A little calling me willfully ignorant here and some I don't really know anything about animals there and some other things sprinkled in there, I think it was pretty entertaining and admittedly a bit irritating.
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Have you called upon the fact that antropomorphizing animals is bad?
 
Davdhole said:
Long one here. I got into an online debate yesterday with an animal rights activist, and of course, heard the usual that was already mentioned on this thread. "Animals should be free, they know that they're in captivity" all that. She mentioned hunting and how it's enriching, and while yes it is enriching, I explained predators usually don't have fun hunting, and many top predators like lions have low hunting success rates and will often choose to scavenge if they can. Plus, running in heat or cold or through deep snow after strong herbivores with some natural weaponry probably isn't too enjoyable.

I tell her that these many zoo animals wouldn't outlive their wild counterparts if they were always stressed as anti-zoo people claim, but she says many animals in crummy zoos lived longer than wild animals, too, and that constant stress and depression doesn't affect their lifespan, and increase in lifespan doesn't reflect quality of life, and of course she has to compare zoo vs wild animal lifespans to a person living free and getting hit by a bus at a young age or a person in captivity living to old age. She also said out of the many animals saved by zoos I told her about, only the oryxes increased in population and no wild mammal populations have truly increased, in addition to saying I was wrong about the giant panda population being saved by zoos.

I linked her a video of a cheetah run at San Diego Zoo after she requested to see a cheetah run full speed in a zoo, and she complained the cheetah is forced to run on their time in front of the crowd. I also linked a video of some gorillas somewhere in the UK I believe behaving normally, as well as a full pov of Disney's safari ride, which I think she opted to not watch the last two anyways. I also noticed she has cats. Hm. That's new, right? The anti-zoo person who believes animals should be free and wild animals know what freedom is keeps animals in her house all day (and no I'm not against pets, I'm all for it, just pointing that out). Of course, because cats look different and are a bit more dependent on us, it's acceptable to keep those in captivity to the anti-zoo folk. If they're going to use the "they're domesticated" thing to excuse them keeping pets but are against wild animals in proper human care, then I ask this. What's so different from keeping a cow in a large pasture and keeping a buffalo in a large grassy habitat? I'd expect to see the same thing from both- grazing or lounging around.
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I also doubt she finds human's doing any hunting 'enriching'.

The trouble with these sort of arguments about animals in captivity is that they aren't based on fact. A very good link posted earlier mentioned that as soon as people acknowledged animals had feelings they decided they just feel like humans. Awkward really as it should have been an improvement on thinking animals had no feelings at all.

People's view of what is right is usually only based on what they and their echo chamber think, so nothing you've done will have persuaded her unless she wanted to be persuaded. As she just wanted to persuade you, it's just the class standard of modern debate which boils down to 'X talks crap because X doesn't agree with me'.

I don't think she was right btw or that you were wrong to make the points you did but to have a debate you need an open mind. The problem with people who are vehemently anti something is they don't want a debate, they want a pseudo religious conversion.
 
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