Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden What's Gnu at the Cincinnati Zoo - 2014
- Thread starter Moebelle
- Start date
Are you indicating they are too frightened to put them together because of the possible consequences? Whatever the economic outcome for the keepers, that seems a strange way for a breeding situation to operate when its is supposedly crucial that every rhino breeds if possible, as their government press releases say. And they obviously did it successfully with the other female.
Are you indicating they are too frightened to put them together because of the possible consequences? Whatever the economic outcome for the keepers, that seems a strange way for a breeding situation to operate when its is supposedly crucial that every rhino breeds if possible, as their government press releases say. And they obviously did it successfully with the other female.
It maybe easier for you to say such things from your part of the world, so try to consider the perspective of someone in their position, culture, and environment.
In addition, the risks of putting animals together has long reduced the potential of many breeding programs in zoos all over the world. Ever wonder why Disney's Animal Kingdom doesn't breed their elephants naturally, preferring to use AI techniques? Or the zoos that haven't bred their white rhinos because they refuse to leave males and females together overnight? Its not that easy to put animals together for breeding, no matter what their conservation status may be.
WhiteTiger
Active Member
The reasons the Indonesians are not breeding Rosa is frustrating specialists. The Indonesian's philosophy is really just do nothing and whatever happens is acceptable. Rosa is people bonded and doesn’t like other rhinos, so they are keeping her separate. But since the rhinos are solitary anyway, only coming together for breeding, there is no reason for complete separation even during that critical time. She absolutely needs to have a calf soon, for her sake and the species sake, but there is no sense of urgency at the facility. Again, risks and intervention need to be taken, and the reserve’s inactions are tiring specialists. They won’t breed her with Andalas since he’s been paired up with Ratu (who they are also not breeding anymore and letting her nurse her grown calf, who is now larger than her). Doing this for genetic reasons is moot at this point since so few breedable animals are left and new calves are needed immediately. They also have the option to acquire a new male from the wild/reserve to pair up with her, but there doesn’t seem to be much, if any, movement on this. There is also an unrelated captive male in Malaysia that was supposed to come to Cincinnati to breed with Suci (the Malaysians waited too long to send him though, so everyone lost out on the opportunity to breed Suci before she passed away), but the two countries will likely not cooperate on anything. The last I heard was that they are contemplating performing AI on her, but how long that will take and from which male they may chose I do not know. With Sumatran rhinos having complicated reproductive science, it is unknown how AI attempts will work.
Again, if the proper conditions for Harry can be met, it is possible he could still leave sooner (like next year) than later. Just to be safe, I would still recommend anyone who wants to see him to go before it gets too cold in late autumn, just in case he does leave sooner.
Again, if the proper conditions for Harry can be met, it is possible he could still leave sooner (like next year) than later. Just to be safe, I would still recommend anyone who wants to see him to go before it gets too cold in late autumn, just in case he does leave sooner.
Being induced ovulators, not very well I would think. Rosa would presumably need to associate with or be mounted by a male to induce ovulation unless she really doesn't respond to other rhinos, in which case they need some other way of inducing it. I was aware of her 'tame' background but not that she is particularly antisocial with other Rhinos too. I wonder really to what degree? She could be humanised and still behave normally around other rhinos-after all, she was (presumably) not handraised(?) from infancy as she came from the wild originally. She walked out of it into a village apparently, showing signs of tameness. Had she been an ex 'pet' perhaps?- there must be some reason for this unusual behaviour.
I had not realised they didn't wish to breed Andalas with more than one female in order to create different genetic lines.The Bornean male 'Kertam' was only(possibly) to have gone to Cincinnati if they didn't capture another female to breed him with in Borneo within a certain time framework. But then they did, so his transfer was again held off/cancelled. Meanwhile 'Suci' died. However I wonder if Kertam had been sent, whether Suci could have bred anyway given her illness. But that is past history now.
As you know, its been discovered both the females in Borneo have reproductive problems associated with lack of breeding over a long period, and in addition three-legged Puntung can't support a male for natural mating anyway. They have used a sort of mating 'crush' to overcome that but it hasn't been successful afaik. I don't know if she was ever given her prothsetic foot.
Regarding the problems of frustration over inaction, that is fairly typical when dealing with countries like India & South east Asia. Whatever the reasons for the style of management on the ground, some of which may be understandable in that culture, with no further breeding at Way Kambas things are going backwards not forwards. The various press statements from the area make out they are 'making every effort' at breeding but the reality sounds otherwise. Plenty of animal breeding projects have been compromised/hamstrung by differences in cultural attitudes before, but in this case it could likely determine the extinction or otherwise of a species.
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The way things (do) not seem to work right now has as much to do perhaps with technical as well as logistical issues, but most of all cultural. If I read the entire essay written up by our source closest to Cincin Sumatran rhino affairs, it to me reads like an "us and them" attitude. If one thing is really unhelpful it is that particular know better attitude. Us Dutch have sufficient years of experience with colonialism and post-colonial "attitude" to write a book or six over!!! 
I really put it down to a failure on the US side to understand and work with local sensitivities and cultural attitudes.
Aside from this, my personal perspective on rhino matters in general at Cincinnati is not "yelling from the rooftops either"! This goes particularly for the Indian GOHR. For blacks Cincin has had a good - if not impressive - track past track record.
I strongly feel Cincin should stick with both blacks and Indian GOHR for now. Conservation Breeding / Conservation Research-wise with the Sumatran rhino, my money is still on having all rhinos in range countries and the research / conservation breeding cadre on site working with one another (rather than simply trying to compete ...)!
If you are trying to look the upper variety ... (which somehow IMO Cincin is doing), this is doomed to fail!
And let's be honest the US Sumatran rhino project has never ever be anywhere near impressive (only in the mortality and inadequate maintenance / keeping stakes n standards).
NOTA BENE: this is in no part taking away anything from the track record of any rhino staff at Cincin nor their chief reproductive scientist Dr. Monica Stoops. It is a mere reality check ..
I really put it down to a failure on the US side to understand and work with local sensitivities and cultural attitudes.Aside from this, my personal perspective on rhino matters in general at Cincinnati is not "yelling from the rooftops either"! This goes particularly for the Indian GOHR. For blacks Cincin has had a good - if not impressive - track past track record.
I strongly feel Cincin should stick with both blacks and Indian GOHR for now. Conservation Breeding / Conservation Research-wise with the Sumatran rhino, my money is still on having all rhinos in range countries and the research / conservation breeding cadre on site working with one another (rather than simply trying to compete ...)!
If you are trying to look the upper variety ... (which somehow IMO Cincin is doing), this is doomed to fail!
And let's be honest the US Sumatran rhino project has never ever be anywhere near impressive (only in the mortality and inadequate maintenance / keeping stakes n standards).
NOTA BENE: this is in no part taking away anything from the track record of any rhino staff at Cincin nor their chief reproductive scientist Dr. Monica Stoops. It is a mere reality check ..
I agree with whoever had said that, while the zoo shouldn't keep any valuable breeding animals anymore, they should have a non-breeding animal for educational purposes and in order to raise awareness.
~Thylo
I agree with whoever had said that, while the zoo shouldn't keep any valuable breeding animals anymore, they should have a non-breeding animal for educational purposes and in order to raise awareness.
~Thylo
Looking through all the politics involved, it seems like there are four main options;
He stays at Cinci alone/ he goes to Sumatra leaving Cinci with none/ Cinci get a replacement for him e.g. a non-breeder/they keep him and get a female as well.
It seems very up in the air at present which of these might happen.
WhiteTiger
Active Member
@Pertinax
Actually Kertam was definitely being sent to Cincinnati. If the wild female was fertile he was to be transferred between the two facilities after he bred in Malaysia. With it taking so long to find the wild female, Cincinnati feared about Suci’s fertility, which is why Harry returned once he neared maturity. Suci would have been bred regardless of the illness. But anyway, there is a new concern that Kertam might be too old and possibly near sterility himself.
However Harry's situation works out, the zoo intends to remain heavily focused on Sumatran rhino conservation, with or without an animal on-site. It will be much more difficult if the zoo is left without a living specimen (so hopefully they won't be), but no other facility in the world has the comparable ability to do so. My kudos goes to Dr. Terri Roth for taking on one of, if not arguably the most challenging conservation programs in the world at the moment. She has done an incredible job for a tremendously complex species.
Actually Kertam was definitely being sent to Cincinnati. If the wild female was fertile he was to be transferred between the two facilities after he bred in Malaysia. With it taking so long to find the wild female, Cincinnati feared about Suci’s fertility, which is why Harry returned once he neared maturity. Suci would have been bred regardless of the illness. But anyway, there is a new concern that Kertam might be too old and possibly near sterility himself.
However Harry's situation works out, the zoo intends to remain heavily focused on Sumatran rhino conservation, with or without an animal on-site. It will be much more difficult if the zoo is left without a living specimen (so hopefully they won't be), but no other facility in the world has the comparable ability to do so. My kudos goes to Dr. Terri Roth for taking on one of, if not arguably the most challenging conservation programs in the world at the moment. She has done an incredible job for a tremendously complex species.
WhiteTiger
Active Member
@ Kifaru Bwanu
The zoo is not “shouting from the rooftops”; they are being diplomatic as they have not released any public statement on the matter since spring, implying that talks and decisions are ongoing. The zoo is in not trying to compete with them; the Indonesians (and Malaysians) have not been successful in their own efforts and have been less than cooperative with the scientific community in trying to seek a solution. The zoo is desperately trying to use their expertise (the only sufficient expertise there is on this species) to save the animal because no one else is nearly as capable or has the resources. The zoo and international specialists who all gathered at the crisis summit in Singapore are trying their best at cooperation with the various projects but politics in the region and complete lack of concern is putting the species in grave danger. It was agreed there that recovery is not going to happen without more outside help, with a particular focus on ex-situ conservation at some point. It is not in any way the US’s fault about what is happening in Indonesia. Indonesia is making those decisions, not the US.
You claim the US Sumatran rhino project has never been anywhere near impressive; well what, if anything, has anyone else accomplished without Cincinnati’s help and expertise in the last 125 years? No one has done or is doing more to save the animals than Cincinnati Zoo. The US is singly responsible for the births of all 4 rhinos that have been born in captivity since 1889, as well as almost all scientific studies done and most if not all DNA collection. If it were not for Cincinnati’s incredible efforts and investment into the conservation of the species over the last two decades, practically nothing of this entire program would even exist. Most of these aforementioned animals would not even be alive (never been born) or cared for right now, species awareness would hardly exist at all, and the Indonesians and Malaysians would not even know how to breed what animals are left. The sanctuaries are run with international financial support. Without it and Cincinnati’s various major contributions to the program, the sanctuaries would expire. Those types of comments are ignorant of the facts that American facilities (both the Cincinnati Zoo and Los Angeles Zoo in particular) have done far more to save the species and spread awareness of its plight than anyone else has. All one needs to do is look at the truly disastrous Javan rhino program to see what would’ve happened to the Sumatran rhino without Cincinnati Zoo’s efforts.
The zoo is not “shouting from the rooftops”; they are being diplomatic as they have not released any public statement on the matter since spring, implying that talks and decisions are ongoing. The zoo is in not trying to compete with them; the Indonesians (and Malaysians) have not been successful in their own efforts and have been less than cooperative with the scientific community in trying to seek a solution. The zoo is desperately trying to use their expertise (the only sufficient expertise there is on this species) to save the animal because no one else is nearly as capable or has the resources. The zoo and international specialists who all gathered at the crisis summit in Singapore are trying their best at cooperation with the various projects but politics in the region and complete lack of concern is putting the species in grave danger. It was agreed there that recovery is not going to happen without more outside help, with a particular focus on ex-situ conservation at some point. It is not in any way the US’s fault about what is happening in Indonesia. Indonesia is making those decisions, not the US.
You claim the US Sumatran rhino project has never been anywhere near impressive; well what, if anything, has anyone else accomplished without Cincinnati’s help and expertise in the last 125 years? No one has done or is doing more to save the animals than Cincinnati Zoo. The US is singly responsible for the births of all 4 rhinos that have been born in captivity since 1889, as well as almost all scientific studies done and most if not all DNA collection. If it were not for Cincinnati’s incredible efforts and investment into the conservation of the species over the last two decades, practically nothing of this entire program would even exist. Most of these aforementioned animals would not even be alive (never been born) or cared for right now, species awareness would hardly exist at all, and the Indonesians and Malaysians would not even know how to breed what animals are left. The sanctuaries are run with international financial support. Without it and Cincinnati’s various major contributions to the program, the sanctuaries would expire. Those types of comments are ignorant of the facts that American facilities (both the Cincinnati Zoo and Los Angeles Zoo in particular) have done far more to save the species and spread awareness of its plight than anyone else has. All one needs to do is look at the truly disastrous Javan rhino program to see what would’ve happened to the Sumatran rhino without Cincinnati Zoo’s efforts.
I would certainly second that part.
I think without her/the scientific team's input as a whole, the situation would be nowhere near as far forward as it is regarding knowledge of the breeding biology of this extremely complex animal.
Admittedly some animals have been lost in the process, but one could argue that they would have died anyway at some stage, wherever they were living, and without Cincinnati's involvement and successful breeding achievements, with nothing new being learnt about the species' reproductive biology. At least they do have that advantage now.
The problem now seems to be the practical application of the Cincinatti team's knowledge with the actual husbandry of the remaining animals that are left. That's where the politics and cultural differences play such a big part. I am still watching for fresh developments with great interest, as I am sure others are around the World.
TeamTapir223
Well-Known Member
We have not been to the Cincinnati Zoo in several years and are making a visit tomorrow.It's going to be our 1st look at Night Hunters and Africa Savanna phase 2 and 3.
Team Tapir223
Team Tapir223
And 4....
When was your last visit? Phase 2 of Africa included a new Cheetah Running Show and a Flamingo exhibit in 2010.TeamTapir223
Well-Known Member
And 4....
Yes we saw phase 2 then back in 2010.
Team Tapir223
TeamTapir223
Well-Known Member
Its always a treat to see so many rarities in Cincinnati especially Harapan who was very active on our visit.
We enjoyed the new phases in Africa its very nice.While it don't have the size of Columbus we like the way they used Lakes and rivers in the new enclosures.
Night Hunters is a big improvement and they were still able to keep an impressive collection.
Team Tapir223
We enjoyed the new phases in Africa its very nice.While it don't have the size of Columbus we like the way they used Lakes and rivers in the new enclosures.
Night Hunters is a big improvement and they were still able to keep an impressive collection.
Team Tapir223
Is that Banded Palm Civet and the Cape Genet still kicking?
~Thylo
~Thylo
Is that Banded Palm Civet and the Cape Genet still kicking?
~Thylo
I assume 'kicking' refers to them staying strong, alive, and in their place, so I will assume nothing about them has changed.